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Wish we could post BIAB recordings of cover tunes. Maybe there are others like me that don't compose original tunes (no interest here), but rather use BIAB daily with established, well-known songs. Maybe I need a web site. Never done that.
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Strange isn't it? One of the primary uses of the PG software is the creation of backup tracks for live music presentation, yet to post these productions for "educational purposes" i.e. how to make better backing tracks, is a violation of copyright, because it could be construed that the cover song is being used to sell the software.
Not sure about the US but in Canada, bars that want live music with their license, pay a fee which is sent to performing rights organizations to be forwarded to, or available to, the writers of songs covered by the live band. However seldom do live bands file playlists of their cover songs with information about the copyright holder so that these songwriters can be compensated. Don't see why the same type of license fee couldn't apply to PG Music - not sure how that would work. One license fee for each performing rights organization. Still, it gets complicated.
That being said PG's position is difficult and could be misinterpreted as using copyright material to sell software.
I supplemented my income and raised a family for over twenty years singing cover songs.
I've always enjoyed hearing them on the forum site and would like to continue to do so.
Ian
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Place the blame on the RIAA and other recording rights organizations.
--Mac
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In case I was misunderstood, I wasn't placing any blame on PG Music - they are caught between the proverbial rock and a hard place.
Ian
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Quote:
Strange isn't it?
Bars that want live music with their license, pay a fee which is sent to performing rights organizations to be forwarded to, or available to, the writers of songs covered by the live band. However seldom do live bands file playlists of their cover songs with information about the copyright holder so that these songwriters can be compensated. Don't see why the same type of license fee couldn't apply to PG Music -
BMI, ASCAP,SESAC hold the venue responsible for obtaining performance rights for songs played as part of their business whether it is live or recorded. Check out the Jukebox in your favorite bar. If its legal there are performance rights stickers on them. Performers don't submit lists because the performing rights organizations do sample surveys and complete counts in key venues and extrapolate the numbers of plays a song gets over the whole of their licencees to detemine how much an individual songwriter receives in compensation for his work.
Yes, I'm pretty sure that PG Music could get a performing rights licence from each of the performing rights organizations to allow people to post covers of someone else's song. And that would be another additional cost of doing business with what return benefit? I think it is kind of cool to listen to someone's own work and how they have used PG Products to put together a new song, but I personally can't get the least bit excited about listening to someone's cover of someone else's work. My vote is to not demand such from PG Music so that they can maintain their current profit margin and keep the products that we pay for inexpensive. Don't forget that every "Free" thing that you folks demand from PG Music tanslates into a higher purchase cost for everyone.  There are places like CD Baby where you can post covers after you prove that you have rights to them and people can purchase them if they enjoy listening to them.
Keith
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Quote:
Place the blame on the RIAA and other recording rights organizations.
We should blame Congress too, especially with the passage of the "Sonny Bono", that extend copyrights to 70 years after the death of the composer.
Patents are only good for 17 years (I think that's right), after which it reverts to the publish domain and allows others to add/change/enhance/benefit from prior work. That's how we move forward as a society, where other brains can take old ideas and make them better. The originator gets his time (17 years), but after that, we all can take a stab at it.
Today, if someone writes a song at 15 years old (many do) and lives to be 100, then the copyright will be valid for 155 years. That's a lot of great, great, great... grandchildren later. By then, who i even interested in that song, much less can even find it?.
Likewise, if someone writes a song at 15 years old and sadly dies immediately, then the copyright is valid for 70 years. That seems like a huge discrepancy to me.
Just my opinion. It would literally take an act of Congress to change it.
John Laptop-HP Omen I7 Win11Pro 32GB 2x2TB, 1x4TB SSD Desktop-ASUS-I7 Win10Pro 32GB 2x1.5TB, 2x2TB, 1x4TB SATA BB2024/UMC404HD/Casios/Cakewalk/Reaper/Studio One/MixBus/Notion/Finale/Dorico/Noteworthy/NI/Halion/IK http://www.sus4chord.com
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It would cost about $0.85 per listen plus $13.00 upfront fee per song. You'd want to post covers real bad. 
Last edited by silvertones; 07/28/10 11:35 AM.
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Quote:
We should blame Congress too, especially with the passage of the "Sonny Bono", that extend copyrights to 70 years after the death of the composer.
Don't suppose that just because a copyright term has expired and a work has entered the public domain that someone hasn't subsequently found a way to claim it. I once had the bright idea of recording a bunch of public domain folk songs until I did some research on the subject and read about the legal woes of the Kingston Trio over their hit with "Tom Dooley".
As you probably know, the song Tom Dooley is an old Appalachian Mountain folk tune that had been handed down in various forms from generation to generation and no one could really claim authorship. The Kinsgton Trio specialized in modernizing some of these old songs and credited Tom Dooley as a traditional song arranged by Dave Guard on their record. The KT was sued by a gentleman named Frank Warner who went around and collected old folks songs by listening to the people in the mountains that performed them. His publishers, John and Alan Lomax, also claimed the publishing rights. Although the Trio claimed that they had learned the song just by listening to other performers (and there is no doubt that their arrangement was quite original) they were unable to prove in court that their knowledge of the song did not trace back directly or indirectly to the published work of Frank Warner. They ultimately lost the lawsuit and were forced to pay both real and punitive damages to the copyright holder. One wonders, that if a copyright is created at the moment a work is created, why the performer that Warner took the song from couldn't sue him and the Lomax brothers for violating his copyright. Oh, well. 
Keith
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Quote:
It would cost about $0.85 per listen plus $13.00 upfront fee per song.
You'd want to post covers real bad.
LOL.....my point exactly. One would find out pretty convincingly how popular listening to cover tunes would be. 
Keith
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Hi, Keith -
I suspect the problem with songs like Appalachian folk songs is that they were never written down in the first place. So it's a simple matter claim ownership of such a song with no one to dispute it. However, I think it would be much more difficult to do that for a piece that was actually previously published and for which records (paperwork trail, not 33 1/3 disks) exist.
Obviously, you can't record the same arrangement as someone else (on a public domain song) and claim ownership of it; however, melody and lyrics allow you to use them as you wish.
Sometimes you find errors in music scores, because they were intentionally placed there to prevent someone from taking your transcription of a public domain song and copying it to claim as your own new version. The errors give it away to show that yours was not a derivitive work of the original, but a copy of a new derivative.
I still maintain that songs (and other works of artistic expression) should enter the public domain much sooner than they do. Not for my benefit, but for the benefit of all.
John Laptop-HP Omen I7 Win11Pro 32GB 2x2TB, 1x4TB SSD Desktop-ASUS-I7 Win10Pro 32GB 2x1.5TB, 2x2TB, 1x4TB SATA BB2024/UMC404HD/Casios/Cakewalk/Reaper/Studio One/MixBus/Notion/Finale/Dorico/Noteworthy/NI/Halion/IK http://www.sus4chord.com
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Just curious. If potential legal problems are at issue with posting BIAB arrangements of copyrighted songs, how do other sites get away with posting hundreds of songs, mp3s, midi files, etc. of standard tunes played on arranger keyboards? One site, in particular, features Yamaha keyboards with many contributions by amatuer and hobbyist players, like many of us using pgmusic products.
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They shouldn't be unless the fees are paid. If theres enough advertising dollars spent and they're willing to keep track it may be worth it. Would it be worth PG Music pursuing this? I think it would. I bet there are thousands of potential customers out there that only play covers and would love to hear what others are doing with covers & BIAB & RB.
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It would definitely be good for showcasing what can be done with the software. It would also be good if each user who does covers posted their website link in the signature area of their thread posts. Where is your link John? I'd like to listen to your productions? You posted it once before but I think you should have it up here permanently.  Ian
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Ian,
I don't have a site. I was using Box.net. They have the same restrictions on copyrighted material. I guess since the Napster issue things have really tightened up.
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John - are you allowed to post your link in your signature?
Ian
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Not according to the forum rules:
8. Posting (or requesting) links to songs, music or other copyrighted material is forbidden. You are allowed to post links to your own original songs.
PG has been fairly lenient though however I don't think in my position it would be right to do so.
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Hi, I don't do cover songs. I don't totally understand people that can play very good cover songs but can't come up with an original one of their own. Surely people that can play instruments in their sleep can do better than cover songs. It's just chords and melody Just my opinion. Best regards Michee
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I won't touch that comment with a 10' pole Michee!
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I dont think It's hard to understand at all. Great musicians are often relegated to cover bands because they spend all their time working on their chops and becoming a good player. Writers spend their time becoming better writers.
If you work on both you can become good at both, but writing doesnt happen automatically u have to learn how.
Playing covers involves no creativity, just chops, unless of course, you do something different with the cover then you enter into the creative zone. ie different arrangements, feels. But that involves the other band members too.
How come some guitar players can play every Eddie Van Halen solo or every Jim Hendrix solo there is
and play it great, but when it comes to soloing on something original they fall way off the mark?
Cause they learned how to copy and didnt learn how to write/compose a solo. They dont have Jimi's thought process or creative process, they just have his riffs down.
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I thoroughly agree PITB. It's a left brain right brain thing. I've been playing for 45 years. I've played for some pro players. What I play I play well. I couldn't write a bad song never mind a good one if you paid me a million bucks. There have been a lot tunes posted, that to me based on the stuff I hear out there by pros,that should have stayed in the bedroom. So Michee there are a lot of people that are very good players and thus they think they're good writers. sorry but no.
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"If you work on both you can become good at both, but writing doesnt happen automatically u have to learn how."
Absolutely. And playing hit song covers is an excellent way for a song writer to learn chord progressions, song form, timing, arranging, using musical hooks, etc.
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True, if you see it that way. But if you;re learning just to be able to play the cover at gigs, you wont take in any of it. If your analyzing the covers as you learn them to perform them, then yes you can learn alot.
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Heres a perspective, I have been playing guitar for 17 years and never once had any interest in writing my own material. Not to say some day I won't want to write something original, but to this point I have had no interest in this. I love covering covers. In a jazz situation there is immense flexiblity on how the guitar player covers the cover. Jazz allows flexibilty in terms of voicings and rhythms that will still do complete justice to the cover while at the same time satisfying that creative itch. So while I fully understand the forums policy on cover tunes, I believe it is a loss to us all to miss the offerings of those who are not so interested in original material. And one last point, when you attend that concert by your favorite band/performer, how excited are you to hear that they will only be performing NEW material. Lets face it, we all like to hear what we know. One mans opinion.
Dan, BIAB2024, SoundCloud Win11, i7(12thGen), 32GB, 1TB SSD(M.2 NVMe SSD), 2TB Libraries, 1 TB(WD-Black), 2TB SSD(M.2 NVMe SSD)Data, Motu Audio Express, Keystation 61, SL88 Studio, Reaper
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As I said I don't write either but I do take liberties with the tunes I cover. I have an old friend that does Old R&R covers. They sound just like the record. I'm not interested in that either. I'd just like to post what I do with the programs.
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I think being able to interpret a song in your own way requires as much skill as writing it.
There's cover bands who do everything note for note, and then there are artists who do cover songs a new way.
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It's too bad they can't find a way for "educational" purposes maybe with a time limit for how long the link could be active or something. I've enjoyed listening to some covers. And my rendevouz with Russ was fun.
Wonder if everybody made videos - even with a still pic - and linked from youtube if that would work?
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Actually, no copyright holder is going to come after anyone if they are not making money with it. I have seen covers posted all over the net as well as hosting sites like soundclick and such. And parodies of songs that normally need extra permission posted as well.
The worst they will do is tell you to take it down, in the unlikely event they hear it.
Youtube is a bit tricky because while the person doin the cover is not making money on it(or real money on it),he often provides links to his website with the music that IS for sale.
So the copyright owner can claim that this person is using their material to draw traffic to their own site, which is a legitimate claim.
But again, if the website is getting mimimal hits and the music is selling at a snails pace if at all, then nobody is going to care.
Realistically speaking, you never have to worry about infringing a copyright unless you are making a good amount of money from doing it.
Maybe we can provide links to ALL of our music, and then just refer to it like.
"Yeah I have done a cover of that song, go to my page and check it out" as opposed to giving a direct link.
Cant hold PG responsible for that.
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PITB, I agree with you. The problem is that Peter stated : - The songs must be originals, no copyrighted or "cover" songs. You must have all of the rights to the songs. So no matter what risk WE would take he is not willing to subject his Company to that risk regardless. Shoot Russ' cover is still up on the site. Page 2 of off topic. Cover Tune
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I can see the owner not wanting any trouble. He would have more risk than us, lol.
well maybe some enterprising person could start a youtube channel for band in a box cover songs.
Then instead of mentioning here that they did it, they just say "you know there's a youtube channel with Band in the Box covers on it. You should go over there and check it out. etc
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I have sent, last week, an email to the Harry Fox Agency to see if there is a way to do this properly. I'm not convinced I'll get a reply.
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If the RIAA comes after you and you go to court, the fines can be brutal. Under the Copyright Act, juries can award damages of up to $150,000 per pilfered track. Why take the chance.
John Laptop-HP Omen I7 Win11Pro 32GB 2x2TB, 1x4TB SSD Desktop-ASUS-I7 Win10Pro 32GB 2x1.5TB, 2x2TB, 1x4TB SATA BB2024/UMC404HD/Casios/Cakewalk/Reaper/Studio One/MixBus/Notion/Finale/Dorico/Noteworthy/NI/Halion/IK http://www.sus4chord.com
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Covers have always been posted here on the various forums. Maybe it's just a case of not appearing to use cover songs to sell the software. I don't play live anymore so I don't work up backing tracks for covers but I definitely would like to hear them. Has anyone ever had PG tell you to remove your posted cover? I've not heard of it. I post originals because that's where my focus is now - if I was using this software for live gigs, I'd still be asking for opinions on the arrangement i.e. good enough for prime time.
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I'm sure PGMusic has been approached by music industry lawyers more than once, and I doubt they want to encourage a repeat performance. Although it may be true that an individual who posts illegal music is probably not worth prosecuting, If they felt there was sufficient evidence to implicate PGMusic in a web-based illegal file sharing scheme, they'd be more likely to push it.
If you can find a site where you are allowed to upload covers, there are probably several ways to let people hear them without implicating PGMusic or their forums in any way. For example you could email a few friends privately to let them know the URL... or you could link to an original song that exists on the same page as one cover song.. and after the vistor listens to your song, he/she may go ahead and play the cover too.
In most of the cases where individuals were prosecuted for file trading (as in Napster) the large number of songs the person was making available is what pushed it to a higher level. If you only have one cover at a time on your personal page, and you replace it occasionally, I seriously doubt if you would get nailed. But, for PGMusic's sake, I wouldn't link to that song from here. Robots can archive html links.
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Good point PitB, i have a friend that can do just that play licks and riffs from many old classics, but i ask him to play a nice lead on a song we were playing at a party once and he could not pull it off, and i had to pull something outta my back side at the last minute.
Along with what you said about spending time doing covers, most people come to a club or a bar to hear things that are familiar to them, they do not want to hear your originals for the most part. Maybe a open mike night coffee shop, but unless you are somewhat famous forget original tunes, folks are just not that entertained by them. You might slip one or two in, but not a steady diet of them.
If you want to cut an original album, people will listen and buy if 1. you are freakin good, or 2. somewhat famous
If you are not well known your albums sales are going to be few and far between. The internet is flooded with fairly good albums that people have recorded and no one wants to buy.
That's the charm of hanging around a place like this you can share your original tunes with a group of folks that want to hear them. I spend about 4 years over at Acidplanet, and shared my stuff and reviewed a ton of other folks stuff as well it was fun but got old. The real deal was that they only listen to yours to get you to listen to them.
Heck my own wife would rather hear me do old covers of songs she loved growing up than do original tunes. Maybe my originals suck like a hoover deluxe!
Lenovo Win 10 16 gig ram, Mac mini with 16 gig of ram, BiaB 2022, Realband, Harrison Mixbus 32c version 9.1324, Melodyne 5 editor, Presonus Audiobox 1818VSL, Presonus control app, Komplete 49 key controller.
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Joined: Dec 2006
Posts: 166
Apprentice
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Apprentice
Joined: Dec 2006
Posts: 166 |
I would like to share and listen to cover tune tracks without melody and words. My understanding is that copyrights don't apply to chord changes. If that is true and the parts are generated by BIAB which allows the use of generated midi or real tracks I don't see how there would be a problem so long as the copyrighted melody and words are omiited. It would be nice to hear the finished arrangement but this would be better than nothing. I have generted hundreds of backing tracks without melodies and words. This is my primary use of the product. I don't see how this violates anyone's copyright. In many cases even the chords are not the same.
What do you think?
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Joined: Aug 2006
Posts: 7,847
Veteran
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DP, that is the whole point of Notes Norton's site he has a plethora of covers without melodies and such, sort of in the style of ish. But i would not suggest posting covers here in any form as Peter ask us not to, i think we should respect that. Maybe someone can setup a small site to allow links and control who is allowed to join. Something like the invision board i have for storage of stuff and general chat. Check it out and at the bottom there is links to where one can download the software. Set it up so that membership is permitted by a mod, and no one can get in without permission. That way the links to covers are private. http://s8.invisionfree.com/GAPers/
Last edited by Robh; 08/07/10 07:40 AM.
Lenovo Win 10 16 gig ram, Mac mini with 16 gig of ram, BiaB 2022, Realband, Harrison Mixbus 32c version 9.1324, Melodyne 5 editor, Presonus Audiobox 1818VSL, Presonus control app, Komplete 49 key controller.
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User Showcase
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Joined: Oct 2008
Posts: 8,074
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Veteran
Joined: Oct 2008
Posts: 8,074 |
Quote:
Heck my own wife would rather hear me do old covers of songs she loved growing up than do original tunes.
There's a line in an old James Taylor song where he marvels that people will pay good money to hear Fire and Rain again and again... but I don't think people care if they're hearing that song or any of the hundred other songs they listened to as kids... what they pay good money for is to be transported back to the days of their youth.
There is always a market for a time machine, no matter what form it takes.
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Ask sales and support questions about Band-in-a-Box using natural language.
ChatPG's knowledge base includes the full Band-in-a-Box User Manual and sales information from the website.
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Band-in-a-Box® 2024 Italian for Windows is Here!
Ci siamo dati da fare e abbiamo aggiunto oltre 50 nuove funzionalità e una straordinaria raccolta di nuovi contenuti, tra cui 222 RealTracks, nuovi RealStyles, MIDI SuperTracks, Instrumental Studies, "Songs with Vocals" Artist Performance Sets, Playable RealTracks Set 3, Playable RealDrums Set 2, due nuovi set di "RealDrums Stems", XPro Styles PAK 6, Xtra Styles PAK 17 e altro ancora!
Tutti Pacchetti | Nuove Caratteristiche
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Video: Making a Song with Band-in-a-Box®, ChatGPT, and Synth V
Take your Band-in-a-Box® project to a whole new level when you incorporate ChatGPT and Synth V to add lyrics and vocals to your song!
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Band-in-a-Box® 2024 für Windows Deutsch ist verfügbar!
Wir waren fleißig und haben über 50 neue Funktionen und eine erstaunliche Sammlung neuer Inhalte hinzugefügt, darunter 222 RealTracks, neue RealStyles, MIDI SuperTracks, Instrumental Studies, "Songs with Vocals" Artist Performance Sets, abspielbare RealTracks Set 3, abspielbare RealDrums Set 2, zwei neue Sets von "RealDrums Stems", XPro Styles PAK 6, Xtra Styles PAK 17 und mehr!
Paket | Was ist Neu
Update Your PowerTracks Pro Audio 2024 Today!
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