Previous Thread
Index
Next Thread
Print Thread
Go To
Page 1 of 3 1 2 3
User Showcase
Joined: Sep 2010
Posts: 7,116
dcuny Offline OP
Veteran
OP Offline
Veteran
Joined: Sep 2010
Posts: 7,116
Lost In Time

looking through some old photographs
you and me
still happy together
takes me back
to when you still loved me

on the beach
watching waves and holding hands
building castles made of sand

i lost track of the dreams
that didn't come true
you kept count of the times
when i disappointed you

in the end
i was crying all of the time
back when you were mine

in my dreams
i'm holding you close
thinking we are still together
whisper soft
you still love me

make believing
that somehow things were fine
back when you were mine

what became of those
two young kids of the beach
tried to make it
but love was somehow out of reach
my heart's still broken
by those things we'll never find
somewhere lost in time

i still mourning
all the dreams we left behind
somewhere lost in time
somewhere lost in time



Instruments
Bass, Electric, ClassicFunkRootFiveAlex Ev 130
Drums, FunkyGroove60s
Piano, Acoustic, Rhythm SoulJazzMike Ev 130
Piano, Acoustic, Rhthm PopUplift Held Ev16 120
Piano, Electric, HeldChords 120
Guitar, Acoustic, Strumming Ev 136
Guitar, 12 String Acoustic Fingerpicking Ev 120

Vocals: Synthesizer V, Eleanor Forte (Lite)
Cornet: Kontakt, The Trumpet


Effects Chains
Vocals: TR5 Sunset Sound Studio, GW VoiceCentric
Guitar: EZMix, TR5 Sunset Sound Studio
Drums: Neutron3, TrackSpacer, TR5 Sunset Sound Studio
Piano1: TrackSpacer, ReaEQ, TR5 Sunset Sound Studio
Piano2: EZMix, TR5 Sunset Sound Studio
Bass: Neutron3
12 String Guitar:
Electric Piano: ReEQ, PingPongPan
Cornet: ReaEQ, Raum, BlockFish
Master Buss: Ozone Imager, Lurssen Mastering Console


Blah Blah Blah
This started from the demo _STEPPIN Demo - Steppin' Even Soul Jazz w Piano. Once again I chose a song which didn't have an obvious chorus, and didn't structure the melody in a way that broke into a verse/chorus structure. Ooops. Seems I never learn. crazy

Once I had the chords worked out, I imported the backing track into the Synthesizer V Editor (I finally got around to purchasing it) and worked out an initial melody. Once that was in place, I decided add an instrumental break and a tag. That set up the basic song structure, and determined where the "hook" would go.

The phrase "Somewhere lost in time" fit nicely, so I started with that and worked backwards. I really didn't have a good idea where the song was going to go, so I wrote a bunch of stuff which didn't seem like it was going to fit.

I've set the overly-ambitious goal of a song a week (until I run out of steam). Over a week in, I had nothing more than a bunch of lyrics I didn't like, and not much else to show for it. Eventually just toughed it out and got first verse worked out. Lathe, rinse, repeat.

The entire process of songwriting for me is basically rewriting. A lot of things I was fond of came and went, either because it was to close to what I'd written in a prior song, or the words were hard to understand, or it didn't advance the story, or it didn't rhyme... the standard reasons for re-doing lyrics.

So much rewriting. I'd be in the middle of the mix, hear a line for the zillionth time, and figure out what I really should have written.

The nice thing about a synthetic vocalist is they don't complain when you keep rewriting. smile

When I finish the process, I'm mostly just happy that I got through another song, and the lingering suspicion that I accidentally wrote someone else's song I'd heard before.

I'd hoped to keep it 100% BiaB (out of laziness) but didn't find any instruments that I thought fit well, so I ended up playing the cornet part on my EWI. I was thinking of putting an alto sax on instead, but the break already had enough of a "Constant Craving" vibe. (Yeah, I know the instrument in that song is an accordion. It's still a reed instrument.)

I didn't add harmonies, mostly because the song didn't seem to call for it. I was going add some Ooohs and Aaaaahs from BiaB, but I couldn't find any that fit the tempo.

Because I had an "extra" week to work on the song, I figured I'd spend time trying to get a better performance. My goal wasn't to convince anyone they were listening to a real person, but remove things that made it obvious they weren't listening to a person. wink

Fortunately, there are a fair number of Synthesizer V songs on YouTube, with the actual song data being displayed as the song plays. So I've been able to pick up some techniques.

In terms of time spent, most of the time changing lyrics, and then on moving notes around, and then changing on tuning the phonemes. Adjusting the parameters was pretty straight-forward.

Then the mixing. Again, way too many iterations. But this time I actually checked out how it sounded in mono (less good than stereo, of course).


As always, comments of any sort are welcome! laugh


-- David Cuny
My virtual singer development blog

Vocal control, you say. Never heard of it. Is that some kind of ProTools thing?
User Showcase
Joined: Dec 2012
Posts: 7,844
Veteran
Offline
Veteran
Joined: Dec 2012
Posts: 7,844
HI David ...

Super impressed! Also, in addition to a Synth Vocal, the BIAB musicians never complain about redos and never demand a raise!

I can't comment on the technical aspects of this, as I have no technical comprehension of such a project. But I can try to imagine the time and effort required to produce something like this. And it all paid off. BTW, Constant Craving is a favorite of mine and Di used to sing it so dang good!

I love this genre and play around with it frequently. And, I as you sometimes do, I often have a title in mind and create the based around that. In a way, it's kind of like writing for spec. You set the parameters and then go about creating within them.

Lyrics are always my weakness. Your lyric here is perfectly fine. It flows with the music and complements it well. You are gifted with the Synth Vocalizer. I can't even begin to imagine that process!

Another super listen. Best to you ...

Alan


BIAB 2024 Ultra Plus-all StylePaks*Win11*32GB DDR5*Rhyzen 9745x*AT 2035 Mic*Peavey Nashville 112 Amp*Ibanez ART120* Acoustic/Electric/Washburn D200S Acoustic*Stromberg Monterey Jazz Guitar

Loops: https://aldavidmusic.wixsite.com/bestmusicloops

User Showcase
Joined: Jun 2012
Posts: 19,428
Veteran
Offline
Veteran
Joined: Jun 2012
Posts: 19,428
David,

Absolutely impressive,

Your command over synthesized vocals shines through.

Melodically this is super interesting. Excellent in fact.


BIAB & RB2024 Win.(Audiophile), Sonar Platinum, Cakewalk by Bandlab, Izotope Prod.Bundle, Roland RD-1000, Synthogy Ivory, Kontakt, Focusrite 18i20, KetronSD2, NS40M Monitors, Pioneer Active Monitors, AKG K271 Studio H'phones
User Showcase
Joined: Apr 2009
Posts: 9,832
Veteran
Offline
Veteran
Joined: Apr 2009
Posts: 9,832
Those vocaloids are getting so much better. And if the genre is correct, they can be an absolute hand in a glove match. This is really close to that standard.

The song has a very smooth and cool groove. I like it.

Only nits I have are at :56 and 1:53 where the note is off on the vox. I image that's a simple fix.

Nice job on this song.


You can find my music at:
www.herbhartley.com
Add nothing that adds nothing to the music.
You can make excuses or you can make progress but not both.

The magic you are looking for is in the work you are avoiding.
User Showcase
Joined: Sep 2010
Posts: 7,116
dcuny Offline OP
Veteran
OP Offline
Veteran
Joined: Sep 2010
Posts: 7,116
Originally Posted By: Al-David
Super impressed! Also, in addition to a Synth Vocal, the BIAB musicians never complain about redos and never demand a raise!

Hi, Alan.

Yes, that's certainly a bonus! smile

Quote:
I love this genre and play around with it frequently. And, I as you sometimes do, I often have a title in mind and create the based around that. In a way, it's kind of like writing for spec. You set the parameters and then go about creating within them.

Only sometimes my "client" is a bit too vague about the spec. mad Once I get enough of the parameters worked out, it's a bit easier.

Quote:
Lyrics are always my weakness. Your lyric here is perfectly fine. It flows with the music and complements it well.

Thanks! Everything else is pretty easy, which is why instrumentals feel like a cheat. I enjoy making and listening to them, but it feels like I'm an artist who's choosing to draw portraits of people from the waist up, so I can avoid having to draw hands. wink

Glad you could stop and listen!


-- David Cuny
My virtual singer development blog

Vocal control, you say. Never heard of it. Is that some kind of ProTools thing?
User Showcase
Joined: Sep 2010
Posts: 7,116
dcuny Offline OP
Veteran
OP Offline
Veteran
Joined: Sep 2010
Posts: 7,116
Originally Posted By: VideoTrack
Absolutely impressive,

Your command over synthesized vocals shines through.

Melodically this is super interesting. Excellent in fact.

Thanks, Trevor! smile

I appreciate the positive feedback. After working on a song for too long, I lose perspective on how it actually sounds.


-- David Cuny
My virtual singer development blog

Vocal control, you say. Never heard of it. Is that some kind of ProTools thing?
User Showcase
Joined: Sep 2010
Posts: 7,116
dcuny Offline OP
Veteran
OP Offline
Veteran
Joined: Sep 2010
Posts: 7,116
Originally Posted By: Guitarhacker
Those vocaloids are getting so much better. And if the genre is correct, they can be an absolute hand in a glove match. This is really close to that standard.

I'll see what I can do to bridge that gap a bit more.

Quote:
The song has a very smooth and cool groove. I like it.

Thanks!

Quote:
Only nits I have are at :56 and 1:53 where the note is off on the vox. I image that's a simple fix.

Those were actually intentional - there are some "interesting" melodic choices which clash a bit with the harmony. They aren't as harsh after you've listened to them dozens of times, but I'll consider fixing it.

Glad to have the feedback! smile


-- David Cuny
My virtual singer development blog

Vocal control, you say. Never heard of it. Is that some kind of ProTools thing?
User Showcase
Joined: May 2020
Posts: 1,572
Expert
Offline
Expert
Joined: May 2020
Posts: 1,572
Hi dcuny,

Nice work and nice demo of what synthesizer V can do. All songwriters often come back to the same themes but that is not disturbing. In this composition some well-dosed instruments all bring their charm. And the result is pleasant. Well done.

Kindly regard
Derochette
alias JaniJackFlash


Kindly regards
Derochette
alias JaniJackFlash
User Showcase
Joined: Nov 2007
Posts: 5,376
Veteran
Offline
Veteran
Joined: Nov 2007
Posts: 5,376
Hi David,

Loved that intro! That trumpet sounds great.

I think vocally this has to be the best one you have done yet! Very realistic, just a couple of spots where it sounds off.

Good song, enjoyed!

User Showcase
Joined: Jul 2012
Posts: 1,831
Expert
Offline
Expert
Joined: Jul 2012
Posts: 1,831
Well done! The mix is superb and overall a great write!

User Showcase
Joined: Aug 2012
Posts: 12,087
Veteran
Offline
Veteran
Joined: Aug 2012
Posts: 12,087
David,

A nice ear-grabbing opening...a bit of a Herb-Albert-vibe to it.
(Forgive the "sounds like" references) - the rest of the song has a Bacharach-David sound/feel (both high standards - that you easily met). Killer melody.

Great backbone (drums and bass). The overall mix is excellent.

THE best vocaloid I've ever heard. (admittedly, I haven't heard a LOT). I can understand every word without reading lyrics. The vocal inflections are getting might close to "natural".

A solid write.

fj


User Showcase
Joined: Sep 2010
Posts: 7,116
dcuny Offline OP
Veteran
OP Offline
Veteran
Joined: Sep 2010
Posts: 7,116
Originally Posted By: Derochette
Nice work and nice demo of what synthesizer V can do. All songwriters often come back to the same themes but that is not disturbing. In this composition some well-dosed instruments all bring their charm. And the result is pleasant. Well done.

Hi, Derochette.

James Taylor has said that he's written about 150 songs, but he's really written about 25 songs 10 times. There's nothing wrong with variations on a theme, but I'm just a bit surprised that my repertoire of phrases is so small. Hopefully practice (and rewriting) will help get me out of that rut.

Thanks for commenting! Glad to hear you liked the song. smile


-- David Cuny
My virtual singer development blog

Vocal control, you say. Never heard of it. Is that some kind of ProTools thing?
User Showcase
Joined: Sep 2010
Posts: 7,116
dcuny Offline OP
Veteran
OP Offline
Veteran
Joined: Sep 2010
Posts: 7,116
Originally Posted By: BlueAttitude
Loved that intro! That trumpet sounds great.

Hi, Dave.

Thanks! I did a couple attempts using other instruments, and they were meh. Fortunately, I got lucky with the cornet.

Quote:
I think vocally this has to be the best one you have done yet! Very realistic, just a couple of spots where it sounds off.

Thanks again. Feel free to mention specific elements that are "off". After working with something for a while, the ear sort of becomes inured to elements.

Quote:
Good song, enjoyed!

Really, the part I worry about the most. Awesome! smile


-- David Cuny
My virtual singer development blog

Vocal control, you say. Never heard of it. Is that some kind of ProTools thing?
User Showcase
Joined: Sep 2010
Posts: 7,116
dcuny Offline OP
Veteran
OP Offline
Veteran
Joined: Sep 2010
Posts: 7,116
Originally Posted By: gruverider
Well done! The mix is superb and overall a great write!

Thanks, Lawrence!

I appreciate you noticing the mix (and the write). laugh


-- David Cuny
My virtual singer development blog

Vocal control, you say. Never heard of it. Is that some kind of ProTools thing?
User Showcase
Joined: Sep 2010
Posts: 7,116
dcuny Offline OP
Veteran
OP Offline
Veteran
Joined: Sep 2010
Posts: 7,116
Originally Posted By: floyd jane
A nice ear-grabbing opening...a bit of a Herb-Albert-vibe to it.

Hi, floyd jane.

I'll take Herb Albert "sounds like" references all day long! I know he's not the best trumpeter in the business, but his "sound" is what's in my head. Even if it was Chuck Findley on most of those Carpenters albums. smile

I wasn't sure the intro would fit - it's not really related to the rest of the song - but I'm happy with how it turned out.

Quote:
(Forgive the "sounds like" references) - the rest of the song has a Bacharach-David sound/feel (both high standards - that you easily met). Killer melody.

Flattery will get you everywhere - especially if you mention Bacharach. Do continue. wink

Speaking of Burt, he's recently release a new short album with David Tashian called Blue Umbrella.

Quote:
Great backbone (drums and bass). The overall mix is excellent.

You know I'm always thinking of you when I'm working on those instruments.

I'm happy to hear it gets your stamp of approval.

Quote:
THE best vocaloid I've ever heard. (admittedly, I haven't heard a LOT). I can understand every word without reading lyrics. The vocal inflections are getting might close to "natural".

I've heard a lot, so I'll apply the metaphorical grain of salt.

But it's good to hear that I'm going in the right direction, especially with expression. I tend to lean in a bit too much with the breathiness. I think it will do me good to spend some time listening to real singers and taking notes.

I'm happy to hear it's intelligible! That's always a big goal of mine. The "Pro" version of the editor offers alternate phonemes, but sometimes (fortunately not that often) the singer flubs a particular combination, so it can take a bit of work to get her to sing it right.

As I mentioned elsewhere, if there are specific things about the vocal that stick out as "wrong", that would be good to know. In the end, the performance is still going to be "off". There are some things I just wasn't sure of because I'm not used to working with a voice that can go that high.

Quote:
A solid write.

Good to hear, especially from you. smile

Thanks for taking the time to listen and comment!


-- David Cuny
My virtual singer development blog

Vocal control, you say. Never heard of it. Is that some kind of ProTools thing?
User Showcase
Joined: Jul 2015
Posts: 5,318
Veteran
Offline
Veteran
Joined: Jul 2015
Posts: 5,318
David,

You are on a roll lately! This sounds really great! You are delivering a super clean sound with everything you produce! Great job placing that horn sound in this! Take care, T




User Showcase
Joined: May 2011
Posts: 4,219
Veteran
Offline
Veteran
Joined: May 2011
Posts: 4,219
David, I am very impressed with the quality of the vocal. The mix is excellent and the write has some great lines. The arrangement has some really nice changes and the trumpet sounds great. Very nicely done,Tom

User Showcase
Joined: Nov 2007
Posts: 5,376
Veteran
Offline
Veteran
Joined: Nov 2007
Posts: 5,376
Originally Posted By: dcuny
Originally Posted By: BlueAttitude
]I think vocally this has to be the best one you have done yet! Very realistic, just a couple of spots where it sounds off.


Thanks again. Feel free to mention specific elements that are "off". After working with something for a while, the ear sort of becomes inured to elements.


Ok, listened again wink

The two spots that jumped out at me were :56, the way "disappointed" is phrased, and 1:17, "close".

User Showcase
Joined: Apr 2013
Posts: 8,268
C
Veteran
Offline
Veteran
C
Joined: Apr 2013
Posts: 8,268
This is an impressive production. Everything fits together quite well. Enjoyed this a lot.


BIAB Ultra Pak+ 2024:RB 2024, Latest builds: Dell Optiplex 7040 Desktop; Windows-10-64 bit, Intel Core i7-6700 3.4GHz CPU and 16 GB Ram Memory.
User Showcase
Joined: Nov 2006
Posts: 3,982
Veteran
Offline
Veteran
Joined: Nov 2006
Posts: 3,982
Innocently romantic lyrics, reminds me J-Pop with some 60's flavor.
The melody is again enjoyable pop and the chord progression has nice surprises.
I like the trumpet, creates nicely the nostalgic mood. The bass/drum have enjoyable groove and they are mixed perfectly.
Eleanor sounds better than in your previous songs, or maybe better than in any song I have heard, maybe you have added more little details, but at least the vocal range is very natural now.

Thanks for the backstory, they are always interesting to read.

Janne


Hear My Music:

Soundcloud
YouTube

Previous Thread
Next Thread
Go To
Page 1 of 3 1 2 3

Link Copied to Clipboard
ChatPG

Ask sales and support questions about Band-in-a-Box using natural language.

ChatPG's knowledge base includes the full Band-in-a-Box User Manual and sales information from the website.

PG Music News
Generate Lyrics for your Band-in-a-Box songs with LyricLab!

Need some lyrics to complete your Band-in-a-Box song? LyricLab is here to help!

LyricLab (by Joanne Cooper) is an AI-powered tool designed to quickly create lyrics and chords to fit your music. Just enter a rough idea of your lyrics, and let the AI bring them to life. Once you're happy with the results, simply import the LyricLab file into Band-in-a-Box® 2024 or newer. From there, you can pick your style and generate melodies to match your song’s chords!

Learn more about LyricLab here!

Watch the video.


Band-in-a-Box 2024 Italian for Mac is Here!

Ci siamo dati da fare e abbiamo aggiunto oltre 50 nuove funzionalità e una straordinaria raccolta di nuovi contenuti, tra cui 222 RealTracks, nuovi RealStyles, MIDI SuperTracks, Instrumental Studies, "Songs with Vocals" Artist Performance Sets, Playable RealTracks Set 3, Playable RealDrums Set 2, due nuovi set di "RealDrums Stems", XPro Styles PAK 6, Xtra Styles PAK 17 e altro ancora!

Tutti Pacchetti | Nuove Caratteristiche

Band-in-a-Box® 2024 German for Mac is Here!

Band-in-a-Box® 2024 für Mac Deutsch ist verfügbar!

Wir waren fleißig und haben über 50 neue Funktionen und eine erstaunliche Sammlung neuer Inhalte hinzugefügt, darunter 222 RealTracks, neue RealStyles, MIDI SuperTracks, Instrumental Studies, "Songs with Vocals" Artist Performance Sets, abspielbare RealTracks Set 3, abspielbare RealDrums Set 2, zwei neue Sets von "RealDrums Stems", XPro Styles PAK & 7, Xtra Styles PAK 17 & 18, und mehr!

Paket | Was ist Neu

Band-in-a-Box® 2024 French for Mac® is Here!

Band-in-a-Box® 2024 apporte plus de 50 fonctions nouvelles ainsi qu'une importante de contenus nouveaux à savoir : 222 RealTracks, des RealStyles nouveaux, des SuperTracks MIDI, des Etudes d'Instruments, des Prestations d'Artistes, des "Morceaux avec Choeurs", un Set 3 de Tracks Jouables, un Set 2 de RealDrums Jouables, deux nouveaux Sets de "RealDrums Stems", des Styles XPro PAK 6 & 7, des Xtra Styles PAK 17 & 18, et bien plus encore!

New! XPro Styles PAK 7 for Band-in-a-Box 2024 for Mac!

We've just released XPro Styles PAK 7 with 100 brand new RealStyles, plus 50 RealTracks and RealDrums that are sure to delight!

With XPro Styles PAK 7 you can expect 25 rock & pop, 25 jazz, and 25 country styles, as well as 25 of this year's wildcard genre: Celtic!

Here's a small sampling of what XPro Styles PAK 7 has to offer: energetic rock jigs, New Orleans funk, lilting jazz waltzes, fast Celtic punk, uptempo train beats, gritty grunge, intense jazz rock, groovy EDM, soulful R&B, soft singer-songwriter pop, country blues rock, and many more!

Special Pricing! Until September 30, 2024, all the XPro Styles PAKs 1 - 7 are on sale for only $29 ea (Reg. $49 ea)! Supercharge your Band-in-a-Box 2024® with XPro Styles PAK 7! Order now!

Learn more and listen to demos of XPro Styles PAKs.

Watch the XPro Styles PAK 7 Overview & Styles Demos video.

XPro Styles PAKs require Band-in-a-Box® 2024 or higher and are compatible with ANY package, including the Pro, MegaPAK, UltraPAK, UltraPAK+, and Audiophile Edition.

New! Xtra Styles PAK 18 for Band-in-a-Box 2024 for Mac!

Xtra Styles PAK 18 for Band-in-a-Box version 2024 is here with 200 brand new styles to take for a spin!

Along with 50 new styles each for the rock & pop, jazz, and country genres, we’ve put together a collection of styles using sounds from the SynthMaster plugin!

In this PAK you'll find: dubby reggae grooves, rootsy Americana, LA jazz pop, driving pop rock, mellow electronica, modern jazz fusion, spacey country ballads, Motown shuffles, energetic EDM, and plenty of synth heavy grooves! Xtra Style PAK 18 features these styles and many, many more!

Special Pricing! Until September 30, 2024, all the Xtra Styles PAKs 1 - 18 are on sale for only $29 ea (Reg. $49 ea)! Expand your Band-in-a-Box 2024® library with Xtra Styles PAK 18! Order now!

Learn more and listen to demos of the Xtra Styles PAK 18 here.

Watch the Xtra Styles PAK 18 Overview & Styles Demos video.

Note: The Xtra Styles require the UltraPAK, UltraPAK+, or Audiophile Edition of Band-in-a-Box®. (Xtra Styles PAK 18 requires the 2024 UltraPAK/UltraPAK+/Audiophile Edition. They will not work with the Pro or MegaPAK version because they need the RealTracks from the UltraPAK, UltraPAK+, or Audiophile Edition.

New! Xtra Styles PAK 18 for Band-in-a-Box 2024 for Windows!

Xtra Styles PAK 18 for Band-in-a-Box version 2024 is here with 200 brand new styles to take for a spin!

Along with 50 new styles each for the rock & pop, jazz, and country genres, we’ve put together a collection of styles using sounds from the SynthMaster plugin!

In this PAK you'll find: dubby reggae grooves, rootsy Americana, LA jazz pop, driving pop rock, mellow electronica, modern jazz fusion, spacey country ballads, Motown shuffles, energetic EDM, and plenty of synth heavy grooves! Xtra Style PAK 18 features these styles and many, many more!

Special Pricing! Until September 30, 2024, all the Xtra Styles PAKs 1 - 18 are on sale for only $29 ea (Reg. $49 ea)! Expand your Band-in-a-Box 2024® library with Xtra Styles PAK 18! Order now!

Learn more and listen to demos of the Xtra Styles PAK 18 here.

Watch the Xtra Styles PAK 18 Overview & Styles Demos video.

Note: The Xtra Styles require the UltraPAK, UltraPAK+, or Audiophile Edition of Band-in-a-Box®. (Xtra Styles PAK 18 requires the 2024 UltraPAK/UltraPAK+/Audiophile Edition. They will not work with the Pro or MegaPAK version because they need the RealTracks from the UltraPAK, UltraPAK+, or Audiophile Edition.

Forum Statistics
Forums65
Topics82,921
Posts753,201
Members39,030
Most Online3,932
Nov 19th, 2024
Newest Members
ikshitachoudhary, Josh Sheehan, Ludwighench, Jean-Laurent, dongordo
39,030 Registered Users
Top Posters(30 Days)
MarioD 156
DC Ron 102
jpettit 95
DrDan 92
dcuny 81
rsdean 81
Today's Birthdays
alvaro clemente1, mhill, Rick Hansen
Powered by UBB.threads™ PHP Forum Software 7.7.5