In a new Biab set it to 4/4 43bpm 38bars mute or freeze all the Style tracks. then File Import Audio > WAV it should be set at 43bpm base tempo it was 43.33 to fit the 4 beat bars but Biab can't handle decimal tempos so the playrate was dropped to .992
The actual 12/8 tempo is 65bpm
With Micro chords this should give 12 chords per bar
I should be able to make up a UserTrack to test it out.
So there might be some way to get real time signatures to match DAW sessions ??
Compound time signatures in Band-in-a-Box are virtually the same as their simple meter counterpart. For instance, Band-in-a-Box creates a simulated 12/8 feel by using a triplet beat resolution for a 4/4 time signature. This does not affect the tempo or pulse of the music, so if you are creating a 12/8 song in Band-in-a-Box where the tempo marking is dotted-quarter = 65, you would set the tempo in your 4/4 Band-in-a-Box song to 65.
We would recommend rendering your tracks in Band-in-a-Box to match the tempo of your song in Reaper, regardless of the time signature. There is no need to adjust the tempo to compensate for the difference in time signature because the pulse of the music remains the same.
A variation of this "compound timing" versus "simple timing" problem that Musocity mentions arose earlier this year. In that particular case, it was necessary to consider the 2/3 down-scaling of tempo.
All is fine when everything is done in BIAB because, as you say, BIAB works on musical pulses and 12/8 and 4/4 both have four pulses per bar, and the 12/8 is created as a variation of 4/4. The fact that, in theory, 12/8 has pulses based on dotted quarter notes and 4/4 has pulses based on quarter notes, doesn't cause any conflict.
The problem for the above user arose because of an external MIDI file. I also had a similar problem a couple of years ago when I was trying to match 12/8 EZ Drums to 4/4 (sw) BIAB tracks imported into Reaper. I haven't tried it again since that time so maybe things are now easier.
I'm trying to work out how much is locked into 4/4 limitation. Looking through the Style Maker is so in depth, I'm not sure how much of it is just used for old midi styles. I get lost trying to understand it all I got lost when I was trying to make multistyles from the keyboard midi STY PRS files. The "Wizard" should just open them and create it automatically, maybe it does but I got lost in it all.
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NOTE: All user styles are entered in 4/4 time. The Band-in-a-Box Program is capable of playing back in any time signature (via the F5 Key setting) so user defined waltz styles would be made as 4/4 but played as 3/4.
I think it's all for automating the creation so if you are up on a stage it's automatically programed for accompaniment using out of the box styles rather than for users to create up the content they need bit by bit.
It's the same deal I can make up a UserTrack and it will drag the track out of the 72bpm Plugin into the DAW and match it's 126bpm (as long as you don't acidize the render to 72bmp and just import without tempo changes). The Plugin will play back the bars in sync to the DAW bars. The issue is you dividing the bar into 7 so you need to be able to have chord changes on them, the PG 5/4 Style is Midi and it offsets the changes I think when I tried it last. As I have no idea if the Plugin will become independent of bbw4 and these limitations. The original suggestion was to just generate up one track or section of track at a time to allow DAW users to add extra session track instruments to their DAW recorded session. It was not going to be Biab in a Plugin but it seems to have gone that way, auto-accompaniment for a DAW. You want to be able to have something unique not a "song style" that other users are using, they sound good but when you hear exactly the same tracks in another user's song it's not unique. That's why I said if users want Biab in their DAW is to have a send transport sync VST to sync Biab to their DAW. Maybe I have Biab cabin fever, stuck in a Box for too long trying to get out into the light.
Thanks musocity! Can you provide exact steps for me to follow to reproduce this crash?
I have updated the message that you receive in the plugin to account for compound time signatures in Reaper so you should no longer see it if you set your Reaper project to 12/8 + 84bpm and plugin to 4/4 + 56bpm. Since compound time signatures are different in notation but are functionally the same as simple time signatures, I would recommend that you simply choose a time signature and tempo that match the plugin. This will reduce the confusion around adjusting the plugin tempo to match a compound time signature in the DAW, but will sound the exact same as what you are currently doing.
I'm trying to get the bars in sync in the Plugin to the bars in the DAW so the signatures greater than 4/4 are spread across the one bar so the Plugin plays back in sync with the DAW.
"Notes: For time signature higher than 4/4, each bar is spread out over 2 or more bars (e.g. 5/4 will be written as 3/4+2/4). For 12/8 or 6/8, use 4/4 with a triplet feel (e.g. Irish). For 9/8, use a waltz."
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I would recommend that you simply choose a time signature and tempo that match the plugin.
Ya reckon, that's what we are all forced to do but I'm trying to get out of the box not stay in it. This comes up so many times in the forum over the years so I'm trying to find a way to fix the issue to allow "Look Ma RealTimeSignatures", maybe not in Biab but at least in the Plugin, if I mention about RealTimeSignatures in Biab the posts seem to get deleted or moved.
I do go to a lot of trouble trying to work out how to make things better but it always seems to be so easily dismissed, another Solo Mute button scenario. The issues I work on are the recurring ones that keep coming up that are holding users back.
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Thanks musocity! Can you provide exact steps for me to follow to reproduce this crash?
That's all I do is provide exact steps, pics videos, long explanations that other companies seem to have no problem using to put that feature in their software, you just need to read all the posts and follow the steps. I really try hard to come up with solutions, you can't expect users to sit their and wait ages for midi tracks to be generated up with a ton of wav files or wait for audio tracks, why use the Plugin instead of Biab that's much faster ??? Don't bury your heads in the sand get the issues sorted out once and for all. Other companies have no problem coming here to get ideas that they then implement, I have seen this over n over.
Originally Posted By: Ronald Knit
Attention: Peter Gannon Please consider fixing what is broken as designed: time signatures like 5/4, 7/8.... The existing "fix" of alternating 2/4 and 3/4 time signatures sounds terrible (the downbeat of each measure gets the same emphasis), and is horrible in notation. I've been waiting for this to be resolved since the first version I bought which I believe I got on 5¼" floppy. Thanks
The DAW is set to 12/8 84bpm and the VSTPlugin is set to 4/4 56bpm.
To clarify, the DAW does not seem to be counting 12/8 'correctly'. Instead of using dotted quarters for the beats (like Noel described above), it is considering two 8th notes to be a beat, which does not make sense musically. Setting the DAW to 4/4 is probably the best solution.
Attention: Peter Gannon Please consider fixing what is broken as designed: time signatures like 5/4, 7/8.... The existing "fix" of alternating 2/4 and 3/4 time signatures sounds terrible (the downbeat of each measure gets the same emphasis), and is horrible in notation. I've been waiting for this to be resolved since the first version I bought which I believe I got on 5¼" floppy. Thanks
It's the fitting that is the issue, I have no problem opening Musescore time signatures in Reaper. If I use ReWire with MuseScore and Reaper it syncs up but it don't sync up with Biab. So all other software needs to change to match Biab ?
It's the fitting that is the issue, I have no problem opening Musescore time signatures in Reaper. If I use ReWire with MuseScore and Reaper it syncs up but it don't sync up with Biab. So all other software needs to change to match Biab ?
12/8 can of course be notated correctly in MuseScore. As for playback, maybe try setting the tempo of the score to "dotted quarter = " instead of "quarter = ". If that doesn't fix it I'm not sure...
The whole idea of this exercise is to create tracks that will fit time signatures other than 4/4 3/4 and the bars in the daw sync with bars in the Plugin. So if users have a daw session in a different sig and want to add other instruments to it they can. What I showed with the UserTrack is that it can be made to generate up and fit the daw time signature session. I have been here long enough to see users ask for this over n over, I can't ignore them. Same way I could not ignore the slow generate speed users had waiting for tracks in the daw, so I showed a way of doing it, then I actually did it in Reaper what others said could not be done though you don't really hear anything at all from PG but mention time signature and they all come down on you like a ton of bricks, look how many PG staff replied but none of them said a thing about the instant gen/play of the source files. There was nothing, no discussion, no feedback, no testing, totally ignored, nothing. Is anyone at PG allowed to independently think rather than group think ? I said about Live Arranger, PG could do that before Yamaha did it then sure enough it was done by Ketron.
I think it's a fair enough thing to try and work out a way so users can do this rather than be limited to staying inside Biab or just using 3/4 4/4 in their daw. Do you ever dream and think: you know it would be good to have instant gen/play and more time signatures in the Plugin ?? You need to start somewhere.
No, your project sounds very useful, especially for odd time signatures. I am only commenting on what I observed to be the root cause for the confusion on 12/8 time in BIAB vs. your DAW - which is the issue of dotted quarter vs. quarter. In Pro Tools there is a setting for this, and in MuseScore there appears to be as well. In some other DAWs it looks like there isn't a setting. They think of 12/8 as a simple time signature with 6 normal quarter notes, which is very strange, but is normally of no consequence because they aren't notation programs. You should put in a feature request for Reaper. In the meantime it might be simpler to set it to 4/4 and use the same tempo, rather than trying to do tempo gymnastics.
"You should put in a feature request for Reaper." I put in a request to Reaper for it to play wma files accurately, they did that very quick after some testing and sorting out it plays on an old Celeron 5400rpm laptop with no issues. The only audio app that uses this wma format for their content is PG. Reaper had it rendering wma but then they took it out as they said it was too old and there are better formats now. All the fake time signatures that go over more bars are not much use in the Plugin. If you could set different time signatures in the Plugin and it would adjust the tempo accordingly to adjust the bar timing to align with the daw. "In the meantime it might be simpler to set it to 4/4 and use the same tempo, rather than trying to do tempo gymnastics." The "meantime" has been from the 90's. I think that was the original decision PG made as an after thought to give greater time signatures without reprogramming as the horse had bolted. If you had real time signatures would you get users saying we don't want that, we want them spread over bars.
I don't follow. Is this even a discussion about 12/8 ? Your DAW doesn't seem to support compound time signatures. How is that the fault of Band-in-a-Box?
Just keep ignoring the issue and it will go away, no matter how many users complain about it, fudge it for another 30 years. Since I came here you guys have had to be dragged out of the 90's kicking and screaming and it was no an easy task, look where you are now, you guys are so closed to what else was going on. If I didn't come here back in 09 you guys would still be behind so bad. So many bleeding obvious things were such a fight to get. I put so much time into it all with Reaper showing how easy things can be done and how fast the Plugin can be but it's all totally ignored ZERO response ZERO concern for users waiting ages. If I wasn't here you would not even have the Plugin. ZERO respect, it's like here we go again what's he on about now, solo mute buttons for RealBand and BBPlugin, he must be insane ! send VstTimeInfo get out of here ! Users don't mind using all those features and fixes that are in PG products now. The easiest usual way that's done is just delete the post and get ya head back in the sand. Just cater for old users with old computers, they will live forever. Give me some respect, please.
What you achieve is very impressive in terms of expanding the functionality of existing programs, and working around limitations of Band-in-a-Box and other software. We have implemented many of your suggestions in some form over the past few years - not all, but definitely some.
It's always got to be a fight and reluctantly done. I said about the Multiriff dialog last year that you should not be stuck in a jail, that was in Beta, the answer was "we have never had any issues about being stuck in dialogs before" end of discussion, yet I have posted for years n years about other dialogs you get stuck in and can't do anything then you have to go in n out in n out, I had to make up AHK scripts to access the main. Isn't the Alt+F8 way better ? but it was a fight. The fighting does take a physical toll, believe me. Guys, you are not working on The Manhattan Project there.
Here's a video with a solution to the 12:8 issue in Reaper. This doesn't necessarily address everything in this thread, but at least shows how you can set the tempo and time signature in Reaper in a way that accurately considers the beat to be a dotted quarter:
************************* Tobin Frank (he/him) PG Music Inc.
Andrew was saying that I should get Reaper to implement what Pro Tools has rather than hassling PG about time signatures. I posted this already here as Reaper already has that: https://www.pgmusic.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=750058#Post750058 See in the forum how schwa engages and just implemented, you don't see that with PG you usually have to wait until the end of the year or 10 years for it at all, and then if they get it wrong with no pre beta testing it's another year's wait. I engaged with schwa doing testing and getting wma to play in Reaper, so helpful, but PG a dead silence unless you mention that dirty word "Time Signatures" then all hell breaks lose and posts get deleted. I post all the instant play info and Sforzando info and: zero, absolute nothing, no engagement, dead silence. Over at RapidComposer so helpful and engaging creating implementing suggestions right away, no negativity from other users as we all have a common goal to make it better. And you guys wonder why I'm like this. I have done 14 years hard labor here, if I was in jail for murder in 2009 I'd be out by now and free
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