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I read with some interest a post earler this week about speeding up your harddrive access with a properly defragged HD. There was also some mention of Piliform's Defraggler ( http://www.piriform.com/defraggler ). While I usually use the defrag program in MS Windows 7, I thought I would see if there is a difference with the Piliform program. To my surprise, after hitting analysis on each, MS said that my backup drive was <1% fragmented whilst the Piliform software said it was 43% fragmented. Why the difference? Is it a different algorithm? A better algorithm? Or just Piliform trying to sell their version? By the way, I used the Piliform version on my 1TB backup drive....took over 15 hours!
Win11, Intel i7 7700K 4.2Ghz, 32Gb RAM, 2x1Tb HD, 500Gb NVMe, BIAB/RB 2024, MOTU 828MK3 audio, MOTU Midi Express, Yamaha Montage 7, DX7II, TX802, Motif XS Rack, Roland Fantom XR Rack, Oberheim Matrix 1000, VoiceLive3 Extreme, Kontakt 6, SampleTank 4.3
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I have used Defraggler for many years, along with CCleaner, on my internet (Vista) and DAW (XP) computers. I was advised to use it by a computer technician friend and haven't used the Microsoft defragger since. Initially my all my drives,up to 1TB, took roughly the same time as yours but I now, on advice from some audio expert in the Sound On Sound magazine many years ago, do a quick defrag every time I use the DAW computer and it takes minutes.I do a full defrag every 2-3 months and that takes longer but nowhere near 15 hours thankfully,usually time to make a coffee, sandwich and wash up afterwards (I am well trained  ). I have NO idea about any answers to your questions as all that is well above my computer knowldege but from my usage I would, and have, recommended the free versions of Defraggler, CCLeaner and Recuva to all my friends and all seem happy, well they haven't blamed me for any crashes etc....yet. Hope this helps a bit, Alyn
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Quote:
...Why the difference? Is it a different algorithm? A better algorithm? Or just Piliform trying to sell their version?
By the way, I used the Piliform version on my 1TB backup drive....took over 15 hours!
Firstoff, it is PiRiform - with an r, not an l.
The difference is that Windoze is doing it from the standpoint of what they decided was a "typical" user's needs.
Their idea of typical use is more oriented to the average user, where a few Word Processor files are loaded, which can load using the Burst mode of the hard drive and after that never has to stream.
Those of us who use the computer to stream Audio files or Video files as well, need to trim down the disk head's access times by moving all that data into a contiguous situation on the disk. Piriform takes that into account.
The Microsoft Disk "Analysis" report is rather ridiculous, isn't it? That thing will report that you "don't need to defrag at this time" while the disk is locking up and puking trying to handle the microsoft report routine.
Fortunately, Defraggler gives us a great tool as a free option, which is why you read about it in my post.
Have Fun,
--Mac
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Honestly, I never bother. If something takes 4 milliseconds to load or 8, I have the 4 milliseconds to spare.... remember the programs RUN in the RAM. Defrag doesn't make your programs RUN any better, just load a bit faster. That rare occasion that something gets crosslinked doesn't worry me. I trust my FAT to do it's job.
But that's me and my opinion. Defrag your little heart out if you like.
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Not entirely true, Eddie.
Fragmented data will eventually lead to data loss, frozen program, stuttering audio streaming as well.
If the disk is not accessed in time, what gets loaded into ram can be already corrupted before it loads when the disk is too fragmented.
In the case of Band in a Box and the Realtracks, the need to defrag was discovered empirically by yours truly during the very first download, install and beta testing of realtracks. Took a bit of investigation on my part to arrive at that solve, but ever since then, when and if I get any Realtracks loading or stuttering audio problems with both Realtracks and sometimes Software MIDI synths, the disk defrag has been the cure.
Now, for most DAW multitracking softwares, the pcm audio files should be stored in an interleaved fashion for best operation and ability to playback and record a larger number of tracks. That's a different issue.
--Mac
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Quote:
Not entirely true, Eddie.
Fragmented data will eventually lead to data loss, frozen program, stuttering audio streaming as well.
If the disk is not accessed in time, what gets loaded into ram can be already corrupted before it loads when the disk is too fragmented.
In the case of Band in a Box and the Realtracks, the need to defrag was discovered empirically by yours truly during the very first download, install and beta testing of realtracks. Took a bit of investigation on my part to arrive at that solve, but ever since then, when and if I get any Realtracks loading or stuttering audio problems with both Realtracks and sometimes Software MIDI synths, the disk defrag has been the cure.
Now, for most DAW multitracking softwares, the pcm audio files should be stored in an interleaved fashion for best operation and ability to playback and record a larger number of tracks. That's a different issue.
--Mac
And if you remember I also was able to replicate that issue and fix.
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I have been fighting this battle for years and will say just this one more thing.
Contiguous data on a hard drive can become corrupt as well as non contiguous data. If it happens, it happens and it is a problem caused by the file allocation table messing up the "map". I have always found defrag and "you must have a virus" to be what techs try to sell people when they can't figure out what is wrong with a computer.
The advent of NTFS has made defrag almost of no value.
But as I say, this is a Ford vs Chevy discussion and I am out of it.
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Kind of interesting that on my Linux box there is no such thing as defrag.
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Yep. Disc management is MUCH better on Linux. Any flavor of Linux. I use Mandrake on one of my computers just to have a Linux machine running. Rarely use it, but it's there.
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And for anyone running an SSD as their boot drive, do NOT Defrag it.
BIAB 2024 Win Audiophile. Software: Studio One 6.5 Pro, Swam horns, Acoustica-7, Notion 6; Win 11 Home. Hardware: Intel i9, 32 Gb; Roland Integra-7, Presonus Studio 192, Presonus Faderport 8, Royer 121, Adam Sub8 & Neumann 120 monitors
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Quote:
Kind of interesting that on my Linux box there is no such thing as defrag.
I believe that depends on which file system you've got, not on the core OS itself. I used to run Linux, and every month would get a message on reboot that it was time to defragment the drive.
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It is a myopic technician who does not believe a problem simply because they have not personally experienced that particular problem.
In the presence of other technicians who report that they have not only witnessed said problem, but have corrected that problem so many times that they are quite certain of the process due to cause and effect observations resulting in the empirical, it is always a good idea to at least file said observation away for future use, just in case.
The defrag situation and realtracks does seem to happen more often on XP driven machines, but John and myself are not the only two who have reported fixing the stuttering realtrack problem by doing the defrag dance, there is a recent thread on the BB main forum right now where the fellow finally took my advice to defrag after not thinking that was the solution, and once again, he reported back that it pretty much solved his stuttering realtracks problem.
If doing the defrag hadn't solved the problem for me, I would not have started telling others to try it.
I'm guessing that, since the beginning of Realtracks, I've recommended this procedure at least somewhere around twenty times or more just on this one bb forum, with the majority reporting a solve.
There is now ample evidence that, at least for some number of users, defragging works.
--Mac
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I am defragging an XP machine right now because I was having a stuttering problem. I read a post here some time back and remembered it fixing RT's stuttering. Not sure about the Piriform Defraggler but trying that too, takes a lot longer than Windows. I'll let yall know the results.
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Just out of curiosity Mac, I did a bit of online research and it's appears both you and Eddie are right. Like so many things, the correct answer is "it depends". I found several articles and posts in forums saying what Eddie is saying, newer systems with fast esata drives don't need defragging and it might make things worse but older ones running XP might benefit from it. One Avid audio/video forum specifically said do not defrag because their software puts some kind of tag on the data chunks and defragging will mess that up and several posters on a couple of pro audio forums said the same thing. One guy on a video forum who's credentials looked impressive said no way should you defrag a big HD with a bunch of large video files while other's said no, for disc streaming defragging is sometimes necessary. It appears to be a common question with strong opinions on both sides.
I certainly don't have time to research this in depth, just throwing what I found out there. I do think that if we're talking a new PC, perhaps we should think twice before defragging. There seems to be a potential for damage to the data. One guy had an interesting take, he said just copying the data to a new HD automatically puts the chunks back together and you can then do a copy/replace back to your original drive without running any defraggers. Hadn't thought of that one, sounds elegant if true.
Bob
Biab/RB latest build, Win 11 Pro, Ryzen 5 5600 G, 512 Gig SSD, 16 Gigs Ram, Steinberg UR22 MkII, Roland Sonic Cell, Kurzweil PC3, Hammond SK1, Korg PA3XPro, Garritan JABB, Hypercanvas, Sampletank 3, more.
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If you read my posts, you'll find I did mention that it seemed more of a problem with older XP machines...
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For what it's worth, a little while back, saving a Realtrack to a WAV file in BIAB was always taking me 70 - 90 secs.
This had been happening since my upgrade to 2012.5 and I just assumed it was the way the newest version worked. Then I ran a defrag. The next time I saved to a WAV file, it only took 30 secs. I was amazed that a simple defrag made all the difference (that was the ONLY change to my system). I have 32-bit Vista.
MY SONGS...Audiophile BIAB 2024
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No problems after using Defraggler, but it took more than 12 hours. It said one minute left for 2 hours and I ended up just going to bed. RTs stuttering went away and I can use Speed up generation of Realtracks again. Win XP SP1 3gig and 3gig memory, Maudio Mobilepre, Biab 2012.
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I tried Defraggler two nights ago after reading this thread.
I have two machines, one XP SP3, and one Win7/64. Both have C drives plus two HDDs for data only.
The first step was to use Windows defragger on all the drives - none of the six drives were in need of defragging according to Windows defrag.
Then I ran Defraggler on all the drives. The worst one was a photo image storage drive that took about eight to ten hours of work. All the drives were fragmented, some up to 27 percent (according to Defraggler).
The image processing software is now running much faster; both machines start up faster on the internet and they DL e-mail faster.
My wife ran Defraggler on her machine last night and was surprised at how fast it became.
It seems that defragging DOES make a difference, and that Windoz isn't optimized for my type of work (music and photography).
Today I mentioned Defraggler on a photo forum, and discovered that many others have been using Defraggler for quite a while with good success.
Glenn
Last edited by Glenn Kolot; 12/14/12 12:34 PM.
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While I have yet to see a dramatic difference in startup / shutdown or file access, I continue to use Defraggler. I've recent used it on my main drive, a 1TB drive, that's 50% full. As before MS Defrag said it was <1% fragmented and Defraggler said it was 37% fragmented. Took over 18 hours to run the Defraggler program but it did return and say that there was 0% fragmentation.
One of the things I particularly like about Defraggler is there is a tab that allows you to see and defrag only those files that are fragmented and not having to do the whole disk. Although I question how good it might be to defrag only fragmented files and leave the rest of the drive untouched....wouldn't this lead to less overall compaction of the drive? But perhaps drive compaction is really not the purpose of defragmentation, just a side benefit from doing a whole drive defrag.
Win11, Intel i7 7700K 4.2Ghz, 32Gb RAM, 2x1Tb HD, 500Gb NVMe, BIAB/RB 2024, MOTU 828MK3 audio, MOTU Midi Express, Yamaha Montage 7, DX7II, TX802, Motif XS Rack, Roland Fantom XR Rack, Oberheim Matrix 1000, VoiceLive3 Extreme, Kontakt 6, SampleTank 4.3
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Here's a small sampling of what XPro Styles PAK 7 has to offer: energetic rock jigs, New Orleans funk, lilting jazz waltzes, fast Celtic punk, uptempo train beats, gritty grunge, intense jazz rock, groovy EDM, soulful R&B, soft singer-songwriter pop, country blues rock, and many more!
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Watch the XPro Styles PAK 7 Overview & Styles Demos video.
XPro Styles PAKs require Band-in-a-Box® 2024 or higher and are compatible with ANY package, including the Pro, MegaPAK, UltraPAK, UltraPAK+, and Audiophile Edition.
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