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Band-in-a-Box for Windows
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Joined: Dec 2005
Posts: 37
Enthusiast
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OP
Enthusiast
Joined: Dec 2005
Posts: 37 |
Look, I enjoy BIAB as much as anyone else, and I do appreciate the willingness of forum participants to help me climb its huge learning curve, but I really get tired of all the constant politically-correct B.S. on here about how BIAB is so easy to learn.
It is NOT!
And every time anyone ever mentions the fact that it is a big, cumbersome program, and that the User's Manual is almost incomprehensible, the "hallelujah choir" jumps in and makes it clear that the poster had better not say "the emperor has no clothes", or he won't be welcome on the board.
And the tutorials are too big to download on a dial-up (yes, a LOT of people are still on dial-up), and they try to claim that everything is REALLY SIMPLE to do. Then, when you try to do what the tutorial said, you find out it's not nearly that simple.
I am getting so tired of that! Would you please stop it? It's really IRRITATING!
Please just display the honesty to admit that it is a difficult program for a non-musician to learn, and stop beating people over the head when they say so!
Thanks.
My head beating will no doubt commence now.
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Band-in-a-Box for Windows
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Joined: Apr 2003
Posts: 881
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Expert
Joined: Apr 2003
Posts: 881 |
Uh...I agree with you! I have tried to use it "seriously" since version 7, and still have only the basics down. It is a very deep program.... No beating from me at all.... 
i5 3.20GHz, 32gb RAM, 1tb SSD OS, 12tb HDD, 4gb gForce vid card, 32" monitor, Audient id44, Win10 x64, BiaB/RB 2023, Reaper 6,IK Multimedia Total Studio 3.5 MAX, Waves 10
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Band-in-a-Box for Windows
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Joined: Jan 2002
Posts: 1,486
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Hi Bill,
Is BIAB hard to learn - yes
Is BIAB worth the effort - yes
After 14 years do I know everything about the evolving BIAB - no
Has it made me a better musician - yes
Would I be without it - no
Am I still learning about Music and BIAB - yes
BIAB is a music creation program for musicians and those that are commited/determined to learn
Unfortunately and I agree that the manual has grown like topsy year on year - but I use the Topics page in BIAB Help for most answers
jazzman
Last edited by Jazzman; 02/03/09 03:46 AM.
BIAB - RealBand - 2022
Windows 10 64
Zoo computer with 7i processor- SSD 1TB -2TB HDD
Roland keyboards
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Band-in-a-Box for Windows
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Joined: Oct 2008
Posts: 19,207
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Posts: 19,207 |
I agree with you 100%, Jazzman.
MY SONGS...Audiophile BIAB 2024
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Band-in-a-Box for Windows
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Joined: Oct 2008
Posts: 75
Enthusiast
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Enthusiast
Joined: Oct 2008
Posts: 75 |
BIAB is not easy to learn but once you see how the software is structured, you will realize it is easier than the other music software when it come to making REAL, WORKING, PROFESSIONAL produced music.
It saves so much money than going to a studio.
Have you guys ever went to a studio to record a single?
That's the comparison. Studio vs. BIAB
And once you realize that square off, you will realize that BIAB is worth studying.
Having said that, BIAB is too complex and has too many features that the Manual does not do justice.
And I have said this before. We need a book called "Using BIAB" or "Tips and Tricks for BIAB"
This should book should be a bestseller among the BIAB community.
It could be an E-book!!!'
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Band-in-a-Box for Windows
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Joined: Aug 2003
Posts: 3,079
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" it is a difficult program for a non-musician to learn"
I think the clue is in the phrase "non musician" I would imagine that the majority of posters in this forum are actually musicians and therefore have some grasp of musical knowledge and know the difference between Am and C6, for example.
I see a difficulty in understanding a "music composition" program if one's knowledge of music is minimal as I assume yours is.
I too would have difficulty if a "become an attorney" software existed and I expected that program to teach me, as a novice, how to prepare a defence, defend a divorce or sell my house with a few mouse clicks.
You say for us to "Please just display the honesty to admit that it is a difficult program for a non-musician to learn" as you should display the honesty to admit that as a non musician you do not understand the basics of music AND that this is where your problem, in my opinion, lies. But there is nothing wrong with that lack of knowledge but be willing to spend a lot of time learning.
I misunderstand your use of "PC" which I assume is "Politically correct" a term applied to language, ideas, policies, or behavior seen as seeking to minimize offense to gender, racial, cultural, disabled, aged or other identity groups.
I agree with Asian sun and Jazzman also.
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Band-in-a-Box for Windows
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Joined: Feb 2007
Posts: 1,815
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I got BIAB this past Christmas so I consider myself a new user. I had BIAB for Windows 95 and BIAB 7, but I never bothered to do anything with it -- couldn't get past the midi sounding stuff. RealTracks forced me to give a try!! So I've had it 6 weeks or so and I have built about 10 songs for the www.rpmchallenge.com thing I am doing. I have all the chords in (mostly), instruments picked and now I just have to do all the vocals, my instrument parts and make edits/adjustments as needed. Since I am actually trying to produce something, I feel I am putting it through its paces a little. I am probably only using 1% of the functionality, but BIAB (and RB) are doing just great. Still trying to get the pieces to sound "real" and get that groove going, but for what I have done so far BIAB has been incredibly easy and straightforward. The only question I would have, is this program geared at all to "non-musicians"? If you don't know what chords go with what, what 4/4 or 3/4 means, the concept of measures, choruses (I still like intro, verse, chorus, bridge, outro terminology), rests, shots, holds, pushes ...... how are you going to use BIAB effectively? Kevin
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Band-in-a-Box for Windows
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Joined: Dec 2003
Posts: 21,747
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I think gibson hit the nail on the head. BiaB is an easy program to start using IF you are a musician, i.e. add some chords, pick a style and go. Having said that it also takes a musician a good deal of time learning all the ins and outs of BiaB; how long I don’t know as I’m not there yet. As for a non-musician I can’t even comprehend how difficult it can be.
My suggestion would be to take a song you like and try inputting it into BiaB. I would also read the manuals and ask many question here, however I would start the questions by saying “I’m a non-musician and I need help…………..”. That would put potential responders in the right frame of mind for their response.
I would also recommend the book Music theory for Dummies. That could put you in a good starting place.
Also remember owning music program will not make you a musician. It can help you tremendously but you have to put the time in both learning the program and learning music. That is not an easy task. For example you could give me the best state-of-the-art illustrator/paint program but I’ll NEVER become an artist. Heck I can’t even draw stick figures correctly sot the program would be practically useless for me.
Good luck.
Last edited by MarioD; 02/03/09 07:48 AM.
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Band-in-a-Box for Windows
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Joined: Aug 2008
Posts: 301
Journeyman
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Journeyman
Joined: Aug 2008
Posts: 301 |
Hi Bill,
Firstly, I think I can understand your frustration and I agree Band In A Box may not be easy to fully grasp but I believe even a true novice can achieve at least something from the program. Progressing is of course dependant on how willing one is learn. Jazzman said it best, but there will be those who you eloquently describe as the "hallelujah choir" having their say but I think it is all well meaning but can be stifling all the same. For what it’s worth, I find it most productive to work out what I want to do step by step from the help files as I need it (retaining what I’ve learnt is another matter… must be gettin old ;o)
Also If I’ve ever needed to know something I just post a specific question on the forum, someone ALWAYS knows the solution (usually Mac!) I do wish you success and hope you get to grips with it ……At your own pace of course.
Dave.
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Band-in-a-Box for Windows
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Joined: Jan 2008
Posts: 1,058
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Quote:
The only question I would have, is this program geared at all to "non-musicians"? If you don't know what chords go with what, what 4/4 or 3/4 means, the concept of measures, choruses (I still like intro, verse, chorus, bridge, outro terminology), rests, shots, holds, pushes ...... how are you going to use BIAB effectively?
Kevin
I am a non musician, I love music but have a very hard time understanding music theory. The manual only helps after you start to grasp the structure of the program But.....
Yes it is geared to non musicians that want to learn something about music.
I will say again, for me, I learned by putting in randomly 4 to 10 chords and playing those in the style that first appeared in the program. I then learned how to change styles and trying that.
I then copied chords from a song I liked and found out that it sounded like crap til I saw what bars looked like in a Hymn book. I'm about as far from being a musican as possible But... I have learned much more than the cost of the program, that that in itself is worth it.
Do I understand it, No, But I can make a decent backing track for my wife to sing to.
If you import a midi file of a simple song, that will teach more than the manual. That's where I learned to turn off the style while the midi played.
This forum, will teach more than the manual, I think it would have been great to archive all the forum from years ago, but the storage space and cost would be greater than what Peter needs to support, I'm sure.
BTW, just last week I learned from others here about rest,pushes, shots, ETC.
Since I don't know music theory, I don't understand why a rest can't be programed for a certain duration, maybe it can, but I don't have a clue yet, but someone will tell us, maybe today and another puzzle piece will fit.
For me this has been a 2 year course in music and community, but that's just me
Wyndham
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Band-in-a-Box for Windows
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Joined: Aug 2008
Posts: 301
Journeyman
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Journeyman
Joined: Aug 2008
Posts: 301 |
Wyndham... Your attitude and approach will serve you well!
Happy learning buddy,
Regards,
Dave.
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Band-in-a-Box for Windows
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Joined: Jul 2000
Posts: 26,320
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Joined: Jul 2000
Posts: 26,320 |
Bill, I like what you wrote in your profile when you registered:
"I really enjoy using BIAB, but I have a lot to learn. I can't make the program do what I want yet, but I'm going to keep climbing that learning curve. I would appreciate any help you can give me."
That is a good attitude, and should do well for you if you can stick with it.
BIAB 2024 Win Audiophile. Software: Studio One 6.5 Pro, Swam horns, Acoustica-7, Notion 6; Win 11 Home. Hardware: Intel i9, 32 Gb; Roland Integra-7, Presonus Studio 192, Presonus Faderport 8, Royer 121, Adam Sub8 & Neumann 120 monitors
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Band-in-a-Box for Windows
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Joined: May 2007
Posts: 1,616
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BIAB is definately a very 'deep' program as far as options are concerned. This is probably from years of growing pains and making the leap from Midi to RealTracks and RealDrums. In addition, trying to please everyone has made it more difficult as one has to sort through the different styles, RTs and RDs. Personally, I'm thrilled with the RTs and RDs, but I can relate with the frustration of the original poster although no specifics other than the tutorial was mentioned. PC? I don't think so.
I certainly have complained about the growing pains of BIAB and my background is music and computer science. I'd love to see a re-write of BIAB using wizards for song parameters (style, instrumentation, etc).
These folks will try to help you solve a problem. Some will get resolved, others won't. Don't feel that a lack of music knowledge or being jumped on for a post should keep you away from the forums. If you want to vent about BIAB, go ahead. Chances are that it has already been vented. The fact that you're willing to use the manual and tutorials says a lot about your determination though.
My .02
Rachael
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Band-in-a-Box for Windows
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Joined: Oct 2006
Posts: 207
Apprentice
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Apprentice
Joined: Oct 2006
Posts: 207 |
May I respectfully suggest that perhaps you've developed a bit of a mental block.
If you look upon it as an exciting challenge, and take it one step at a time, you will enjoy the learning curve, and have lots of fun.
I found that when I first bought the programme, it took about half an hour to understand the basics and start producing simple backtracks, but several years down the line I'm still learning exciting new stuff every day. If ever I get to the stage where I know it all, I'll use a bad word, because I love learning new things.
And the advice given about learning some music theory is spot-on.
Once you get into that, you'll find it fascinating. The way it all fits together mathematically never ceases to amaze me.
Now I'm going to take my own advice and tackle Realband. Now that looks really tricky, but I know I can get there with some persistence and the help of the guys and gals on the forum.
See you at the coda!
Mike Laatz
Mike Laatz
Cape Town
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Band-in-a-Box for Windows
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Joined: Jun 2005
Posts: 7,687
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Quote:
Please just display the honesty to admit that it is a difficult program for a non-musician to learn, and stop beating people over the head when they say so!
Thanks.
My head beating will no doubt commence now.
No head beating from me. If you're not a musician then it logically follows that you don't know what a Digital Audio Workstation is, as in midi, synthisizers, other hardware, using a computer for recording, audio waveforms, all that kind of thing.
If you've had some college, then you know about course prerequisites. You have to have some experience with these things or you're dead in the water. It's like taking an engineering course when you didn't pass high school algebra. If you think Biab is tough, try paying $600 for Sonar Producer or any other big name DAW and see how far you get.
Compared to these other music production softwares, Biab is by far the easiest to learn. Doesn't mean it's easy if you can see the distinction.
if you have no experience in the field, it has all the tools to get you there if you're willing to apply yourself. That means learning basic chords, scales, musical terminology and related Windows functions. If you're not willing or able to do that, the program is not going to do it for you.
As far as marketing, what would you have Peter and the experienced user base do? What is a musician? At what level do you draw the line to the general public concerning what you need to use the program? How many people can grab a guitar and strum some basic 3 chord folk or country songs? They know those chords and they can count to 4 and not much else. Are they musicians? Can they use Biab? Yes, if they're also somewhat of a computer geek in another field. If they know nothing about a PC except how to send an email and play a youtube video, probably not.
Those of us who are pro, semi-pro musicians, recording engineers, educated hobbyists, etc know what it takes to create backing tracks at the level Biab does. Biab is an amazing program and it's very easy to use when compared to the alternatives. If you have no clue what those alternatives are, then you don't know what we're talking about.
Bob
Biab/RB latest build, Win 11 Pro, Ryzen 5 5600 G, 512 Gig SSD, 16 Gigs Ram, Steinberg UR22 MkII, Roland Sonic Cell, Kurzweil PC3, Hammond SK1, Korg PA3XPro, Garritan JABB, Hypercanvas, Sampletank 3, more.
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Band-in-a-Box for Windows
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Joined: Apr 2008
Posts: 1,122
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Posts: 1,122 |
Hi Bill........
Yep it ain't easy. Neither was learning to play the guitar, or trumpet or the keyboard, none of which I have mastered by any means. The bass being my highest area of proficiency has still not been mastered. Then I decided to start doing my own home recording. Mostly for the enjoyment I get from the final results, as well as the challenges that it forces me to overcome, by learning things that at one time I had never heard of. If it were easy everyone would be doing it.
Having acheived your position as an attorney, I'm sure you have overcome challenges much greater than learning a software program. I am often tempted to look at Sonar, cubase, etc, but since they all do basically the same thing, albeit in a differnt way, I would only lessen my time available for learning the PG products that I am just now starting to get aquainted with.
The learning curve is all part of it, many of the guys on the forum have taught me a lot, and I have a lot more to learn. I've had music therory since 6th grade, then high school band, then started learning the guitar and it wasn't until the guitar that I really became interested in what I was doing.
You either enjoy it or you don't. If you get enjoyment, you keep pluggin, if you don't, you hang it up.
Pretty simple.
Of course you could always try Songsmith. I hear it is about the easiest to learn.
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Band-in-a-Box for Windows
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Joined: Aug 2008
Posts: 98
Enthusiast
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Enthusiast
Joined: Aug 2008
Posts: 98 |
Hmmmm...well, I do agree that BIAB is not easy to learn COMPLETELY. However, I think it's the single most amazing piece of computer software that I have ever used--bar none. I recently did an off-the-wall version of 'Rolling In My Sweet Baby's Arms' just to try out the mega-cool bluegrass Realtracks. I sent an MP3 file via email to a working musician I know, and he asked who the players were and what parts, if any, I was playing!! It's that damned good. [I'm NOT that good.]
How do they do those Realtracks so well, anyway? Astounding...
If you compose any music, BIAB is a real godsend. Where else can you plug in a C5 cord in place of a C9, and instantly hear the difference? Or swap out styles, change instrument load-outs, tempos, ad infinitum.....You see, the actual problem is that BIAB is remarkably deep and gets more and more complex as you get into using it. Toucher is exactly right, IMHO. Think of BIAB as an INSTRUMENT that you have to learn to play, and proceed to teach yourself and learn from others with that concept in mind. BIAB is an amazing, complex, and beautiful musical instrument that will require patience, dedication, and practice, practice, practice.
The results often blow my feeble mind away...and I'm a real nimrod.
Finally, this just may be the best software support forum on the net, so go ahead and use it, even if you just lurk about soaking up knowledge. I'm a real information leech with the stuff on this forum, and may I add that it also has about the best developer support of any product/forum also.
P.S. The 'old timers' here can get a bit testy when folks do a little flaming on BIAB.
Fire, the wheel, and the I IV V -- foundations of civilization.
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Band-in-a-Box for Windows
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Joined: Mar 2007
Posts: 1,342
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Expert
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If BiaB was just a fun simple and easy-to-use program I don't think it would be used by so many musicians all over the world. Yes, to fully use the program to it's max capability and push the envelope you will have to dig in and study hard and get a lot of BiaB time on your clock. I don't think that most users will use the program to that extend (I sure don't).
It is however pretty easy for one to:
A: type in some chords.
B: click play
C: click stop
D: Change the style (finding the right style is another thing)
E: Change the tempo
F: Change the key
With these simple steps you can build a simple song. You actually started using the program.
Later on you'll want to add rests, shots etc. Simply look it up and use it; Slowly build your knowledge step by step by adding a little function one at a time.
No BiaB is NOT an easy program to learn.
Yes, you can start using BiaB real fast, almost without even reading the manual.
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Band-in-a-Box for Windows
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Joined: Aug 2008
Posts: 98
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Posts: 98 |
RE: Songsmith...
It's kind of a toy, but I hope that some people who try the musical nibble that it provides will desire a full course meal, and perhaps turn to BIAB. And remember that Songsmith will most likely be all that a lot of folks want or need. Any kind of musical creativity is better than none [although I might be persuaded to provide a caveat for Hip-Hop...]
Oh...OK, Hip-Hop guys--don't get your baggy drawers in a knot. But, really, just get some Acid Loops and you're off and running, aren't you? Really.
Fire, the wheel, and the I IV V -- foundations of civilization.
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Band-in-a-Box for Windows
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Joined: Sep 2003
Posts: 8,333
Veteran
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"Now I've heard there was a secret chord
That David played, and it pleased the Lord
But you don't really care for music, do you?
It goes like this
The fourth, the fifth
The minor fall, the major lift
The baffled king composing Hallelujah" 1
1. Leonard Cohen, b Montreal....
John Conley
Musica est vita
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Ask sales and support questions about Band-in-a-Box using natural language.
ChatPG's knowledge base includes the full Band-in-a-Box User Manual and sales information from the website.
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New! XPro Styles PAK 7 for Band-in-a-Box 2024 for Mac!
We've just released XPro Styles PAK 7 with 100 brand new RealStyles, plus 50 RealTracks and RealDrums that are sure to delight!
With XPro Styles PAK 7 you can expect 25 rock & pop, 25 jazz, and 25 country styles, as well as 25 of this year's wildcard genre: Celtic!
Here's a small sampling of what XPro Styles PAK 7 has to offer: energetic rock jigs, New Orleans funk, lilting jazz waltzes, fast Celtic punk, uptempo train beats, gritty grunge, intense jazz rock, groovy EDM, soulful R&B, soft singer-songwriter pop, country blues rock, and many more!
Special Pricing! Until September 30, 2024, all the XPro Styles PAKs 1 - 7 are on sale for only $29 ea (Reg. $49 ea)! Supercharge your Band-in-a-Box 2024® with XPro Styles PAK 7! Order now!
Learn more and listen to demos of XPro Styles PAKs.
Watch the XPro Styles PAK 7 Overview & Styles Demos video.
XPro Styles PAKs require Band-in-a-Box® 2024 or higher and are compatible with ANY package, including the Pro, MegaPAK, UltraPAK, UltraPAK+, and Audiophile Edition.
New! Xtra Styles PAK 18 for Band-in-a-Box 2024 for Mac!
Xtra Styles PAK 18 for Band-in-a-Box version 2024 is here with 200 brand new styles to take for a spin!
Along with 50 new styles each for the rock & pop, jazz, and country genres, we’ve put together a collection of styles using sounds from the SynthMaster plugin!
In this PAK you'll find: dubby reggae grooves, rootsy Americana, LA jazz pop, driving pop rock, mellow electronica, modern jazz fusion, spacey country ballads, Motown shuffles, energetic EDM, and plenty of synth heavy grooves! Xtra Style PAK 18 features these styles and many, many more!
Special Pricing! Until September 30, 2024, all the Xtra Styles PAKs 1 - 18 are on sale for only $29 ea (Reg. $49 ea)! Expand your Band-in-a-Box 2024® library with Xtra Styles PAK 18! Order now!
Learn more and listen to demos of the Xtra Styles PAK 18 here.
Watch the Xtra Styles PAK 18 Overview & Styles Demos video.
Note: The Xtra Styles require the UltraPAK, UltraPAK+, or Audiophile Edition of Band-in-a-Box®. (Xtra Styles PAK 18 requires the 2024 UltraPAK/UltraPAK+/Audiophile Edition. They will not work with the Pro or MegaPAK version because they need the RealTracks from the UltraPAK, UltraPAK+, or Audiophile Edition.
New! Xtra Styles PAK 18 for Band-in-a-Box 2024 for Windows!
Xtra Styles PAK 18 for Band-in-a-Box version 2024 is here with 200 brand new styles to take for a spin!
Along with 50 new styles each for the rock & pop, jazz, and country genres, we’ve put together a collection of styles using sounds from the SynthMaster plugin!
In this PAK you'll find: dubby reggae grooves, rootsy Americana, LA jazz pop, driving pop rock, mellow electronica, modern jazz fusion, spacey country ballads, Motown shuffles, energetic EDM, and plenty of synth heavy grooves! Xtra Style PAK 18 features these styles and many, many more!
Special Pricing! Until September 30, 2024, all the Xtra Styles PAKs 1 - 18 are on sale for only $29 ea (Reg. $49 ea)! Expand your Band-in-a-Box 2024® library with Xtra Styles PAK 18! Order now!
Learn more and listen to demos of the Xtra Styles PAK 18 here.
Watch the Xtra Styles PAK 18 Overview & Styles Demos video.
Note: The Xtra Styles require the UltraPAK, UltraPAK+, or Audiophile Edition of Band-in-a-Box®. (Xtra Styles PAK 18 requires the 2024 UltraPAK/UltraPAK+/Audiophile Edition. They will not work with the Pro or MegaPAK version because they need the RealTracks from the UltraPAK, UltraPAK+, or Audiophile Edition.
New! XPro Styles PAK 7 for Band-in-a-Box 2024 for Windows!
We've just released XPro Styles PAK 7 with 100 brand new RealStyles, plus 50 RealTracks and RealDrums that are sure to delight!
With XPro Styles PAK 7 you can expect 25 rock & pop, 25 jazz, and 25 country styles, as well as 25 of this year's wildcard genre: Celtic!
Here's a small sampling of what XPro Styles PAK 7 has to offer: energetic rock jigs, New Orleans funk, lilting jazz waltzes, fast Celtic punk, uptempo train beats, gritty grunge, intense jazz rock, groovy EDM, soulful R&B, soft singer-songwriter pop, country blues rock, and many more!
Special Pricing! Until September 30, 2024, all the XPro Styles PAKs 1 - 7 are on sale for only $29 ea (Reg. $49 ea)! Supercharge your Band-in-a-Box 2024® with XPro Styles PAK 7! Order now!
Learn more and listen to demos of XPro Styles PAKs.
Watch the XPro Styles PAK 7 Overview & Styles Demos video.
XPro Styles PAKs require Band-in-a-Box® 2024 or higher and are compatible with ANY package, including the Pro, MegaPAK, UltraPAK, UltraPAK+, and Audiophile Edition.
Video - Band-in-a-Box® DAW Plugin Version 6 for Mac®: New Features for Reaper
Band-in-a-Box® 2024 for Mac® - Update Today!
Band-in-a-Box® 2024 for Mac® Video - Over 50 New Features and Enhancements!
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