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Band-in-a-Box for Windows
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It is not easy to use. BIAB will do more than I understand or am ready for. But I have used other programs that I outgrew, always wishing it would do this or that. PG has thought of almost everything for the musicians and the non musicians, making the program useful to both. A quick start manual would be helpful. I got it in the mail, and stuck with it four straight hours the first night and finally got some sound out. I usually do a "save as" when I get "something" useable, when I get frustrated, and come back later and try changing what I don't like. Also, this forum is far more valuable than two of the manuals. When I get an answer to a question, I print it out and have started my own manual containing things I want to do with a song. Be happy in the fact that BIAB and this forum are waiting for you to grow in your enjoyment of music. You will come out on the other side with the satisfaction that you made that song at home. And people will say, "Man that is a hot sax, is that you?" I always just say, "No, it's just the boys in the band".

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All good responses, and I would like to add my 1.5¢.....

If we are honest, there have been replies that come off as huffy, short tempered, or just have the tone of "looking down your nose" at the person, the same as on any forum. I think a lot of one line answers are a put off to folks, and come across as arrogant, especially when it is something like this...

"Just got to the Green Button in the 2nd screen of the window that opens when you select the style picker button, and enter ^p#$Emsus9 and it will transpose the entire track to a F#m7, which you can import into RB by using the command F6^="

Now, this is a great step be step, but it does not tell the person WHERE you got that info, just like saying "Read pages 470 to 488 of the manual, it will explain everything" does not explain WHY the solution works.

Don't get me wrong, I have learned a TON from the forums and you folks, and for that I am grateful, but just like myself, sometimes I think we all need to stop replying for a min and THINK about the responses that we are about to post, instead of tossing out bits of info that, in the long run, really doesn't help a person LEARN the program, or get him/her excited enough to look up the answers themselves.;)

Once they know that the information is there, I think a lot of folks will then LOOK at where it came from the next time that they run into a similar problem.

This is just an observation, an IMHO, take it with a grain of salt, etc type of response....nothing more to see here....


i5 3.20GHz, 32gb RAM, 1tb SSD OS, 12tb HDD, 4gb gForce vid card, 32" monitor, Audient id44, Win10 x64, BiaB/RB 2023, Reaper 6,IK Multimedia Total Studio 3.5 MAX, Waves 10
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And people will say, "Man that is a hot sax, is that you?" I always just say, "No, it's just the boys in the band".




Good one. I like that but I may say "...the boys in my band"

Bob


Biab/RB latest build, Win 11 Pro, Ryzen 5 5600 G, 512 Gig SSD, 16 Gigs Ram, Steinberg UR22 MkII, Roland Sonic Cell, Kurzweil PC3, Hammond SK1, Korg PA3XPro, Garritan JABB, Hypercanvas, Sampletank 3, more.
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Mr Crowell,

Um--a question? What is it you want to DO with BIAB? Why, as a non-musician, do you have BIAB in the first place? (That is really the same question rephrased.)

Answer that and I truly believe that you can get practical answers to practical questions.

By "answer that", I mean write down what it is that you want to do. Is it to "write songs" or "make demos"? Erm, there will be some subtasks there--including the questions you need answered about the program. Break it down. In writing. (I hope you'll share those goals with us, too; we're all curious now. )

You will find that this process raises more questions than it answers--which is a good thing. That is part of the true brilliance of this program; it's an expanding concept. The more you do, the more you can do.

I happen to agree with you on the (unbelievable) depth of the program; also on the vanilla responses--denial, really--regarding the difficulty that can create. The manuals' indexes are incomplete, the Help entries are sometimes equivocally phrased (meaning that they are correct, but sometimes unclear or open to interpretation), and the program itself contains so many menu options you will never use that it is hard to find your way back to the ones you do.

The following isn't a quote, I'm just formatting it so it will stand out.

Quote:

Solution: Take notes as you work. Create your own manual for what you do. (This is a good idea for any repetitive technical task, really.) Most of the answers are in the manuals or in Help; they're just hard to find. Scribble in the margins and between entries in the (woefully inadequate) index of the printed manuals when they become available. You'll quickly run out of space, of course, so add pages if you have to. Get the thing organized so that you quickly find the solutions to your technical needs. And write down new questions/goals as they come up.

Note that I mentioned some things which require action on your part. Write down your goals. Break them into subtasks. Write down the questions that those raise. Answer them and check them off. Write down the new questions as they arise. Lather, rinse and repeat. Srsly. It works. Write stuff down..




Venting is fine, but come to the fora--and go to the Helps--with questions requiring positive answers and I believe you will find a much shorter path to your goals.

Affirmatively,

Richard

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"Ah feel your pain." to coin a phrase. I think that I started with BIAB 2006 ver. I'm an amateur musician and my musical notation knowledge has quite a ways to go. Yep, me too, when I first opened BIAB. Way too complicated for this old dude. I did upgrade to 2007 but I just let it sit on the shelf. Then I realized that there were some things I would like to do with BIAB, like make some backups so my wife and I could play at retirement homes and hospitals. The older folks like the old standards and we couldn't always find a recorded tune that we could alter and use for a backup. It was time to pay the piper. I knew that I had to use a couple of references that I already had including "Idiot's Music Theory", Sibelius, and Wavepad. Hey I didn't even know all of the major and minor scales not to mention the modes. I knew what a chord is and can read music okay. There are big gaps in peoples' musical knowledge even right here on this forum. I consider myself a rookie and BIAB seems quite complex to me. However, I have learned over the years to attack a problem like eating a pie; 1 piece at a time and make those pieces small, please. Set a reasonable (maybe even a small one at first) goal. Yeah, I get discouraged with BIAB sometimes, too. OTOH, I know that part of the problem is that I have not just jumped in and played with and experimented with the various features. That applies to Sibelius, the music notation program, too. No, I'm not crictizing you for your comments. To me it's a matter of choice and motivation. I play the trumpet. I've tried a couple of times to learn the guitar and have given up each time. I can't seem to get my left hand position right so I quit. Could I learn to get my left hand in the correct position? With a helluva a lot of work, I probably could. But am I motivated enough to learn to do it? You say you are a non-musician. The term "musician" encompasses a wide array of abilities and talents. Still, there are certain basics that we all have to learn if we want to make music. There are "naturals" out there who don't even need music notation at all. Everything just comes naturally to them. Improvisation is easy for some and others like me really have to work hard to even scratch the surface. I'm not ashamed to admit that I look in "Idiot's Music Theory" fairly often. I suggest that you spend a little time in defining your goals and work toward them even if you have to start with a very basic keyboard course book. Learning music is like learning another language, It's certainly not easy and it takes patience and tenacity. The rewards are really worth the efforts though. Oh, and to the person said that all musicians know what a digital recording studio is-----for some of us, maybe not


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Sorry to hear of your difficulty Bill. The program was easy for me to learn.

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The first time I used BIAB was in 1999 at a friend's house. It was extremely intuitive for me - at least at it's basic level - because up to that point I had been taking sheets of paper, drawing measure lines and writing out changes to tunes. With BIAB I do basically the exact same thing, only on the screen, plus it plays it back for in the style, tempo and key I choose. Nothing hard about that :-) Of course, like any other piece of software, there may be things you want to do that will take a little experimenting or research, but once you learn how, you can do it whenever needed. This forum has been a great way for me to pick up tips & tricks.



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Me too Paul. True that it's easier for musicians. Back in 1999 I downloaded the free demo and was jamming the blues with it in less than an hour. Been using it off and on since, but still have trouble sometimes.


Like the man said, "ain't that a kick in the head!"
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Fine. It's easy to learn to jam with. We all agree.

If Mr Crowell is not a musician, that may not be the goal. Mr Crowell has still not provided us, or perhaps himself, with the answer to the question: What am I trying to do with it?

Knowing the answer to that will help everyone. Bill?

R.


"My primary musical instrument is the personal computer."
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Bill,
I tend to agree with Ryszard. When you asked for a transcription of a song earlier, you didn't say that. I admit that I thought you had some musical knowledge. If you don't, then that places all of us on a different plane.

For instance, you wanted a Band In A Box song of another, already recorded song. Using the Audio Chord Wizard, you could, on a basic level, extract the chords from a audio file and put them in Band In A Box. Using those chords, Band In A Box could construct a backing sequence, or a backing track. It will not create a melody, however, at least of the song you were trying to play. It will not transcribe the notes from an audio file into a midi or BIAB file.

Band In A Box is designed for musicians. It's designed as an 'accompaniment' program, but you still have to play melody, or sing, or something.

I have never once seen you state your goals or needs, and if you don't, then people can't help you. It is very possible that being a non-musician you've bought a product you thought could do something that it was never intended to do, and are frustrated over that. It's very difficult to get a same sized square peg through a round hole.

Gary


I'm blessed watching God do what He does best. I've had a few rough years, and I'm still not back to where I want to be, but I'm on the way and things are looking far better now than what they were!
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Well, this topic has been covered before. And certainly the O/P struck a nerve.

I think most of the bases have been covered by all those who've responded so far. (I also noticed that "difficult program for a non-musician" remark and I'm not sure what to do with that one.)

I have definitely been one of those who have "criticized" BiaB myself in various threads. (Well, let's say "highlighted less than perfect aspects.")

BiaB, as others have said, is a thick, deep application that can do many things and be manipulated in many ways. Here is an anolgy - MS Word is also a very thick app that can do many things. I have probably not mastered 90% of what Word can do. But I am a Wiz and typing a document, doing some basic formatting, spell-check my errors and print or e-mailing the document to someone else and they will be able to read and understand what I typed. Same thing with BiaB.

Could BiaB be made easier? Absolutely. Hopefully Peter and the gang are working toward that end.

But it is an amazing application and I only wish I had more time to take advantage of more of its features. I would humbly suggest you give it more time and also take advantage of the wonderful helpful people on this forum. They have bailed me out on many occasions and I am forever indebted to them.

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I'm a musician of no formal training and admittedly limited abilities. I probably fully understand about 10% of BIAB, as i probably fully understand about 10% of Sonar Producer, etc. But I know if you compare my first CD (pre-BIAB) to my latest, regardless of what you may think of my songwriting and singing, you would have to agree that it is like night and day in terms of the quality and sophistication of the production. I hope someday (probably after I retire and/or win the lottery) to master all of BIAB (if it would only stand still!), but every time I get a good handle on a feature I had not used/understood before, the quality of my output goes up a notch. As others have said, you truly get out of it what you put into it, but you can also get a heck of a lot out of it with only a mastery of the basic and primary features. And as you improve the ancillary technology you have available (e.g., Ketron SD2, RealTracks, etc.) you basically get to an even higher level without having to scale a learning curve. I would love a video course that says something like, "OK, now that you have the basics, here are the top four or five features that you really need to try and through which you can give significantly improved results with a reasonable amount of effort." Or maybe a listing of all the significant features coupled with a sentence or two explaining what they do so we can each choose what might be most useful for each of us to take on.


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Read all the responses and I agree with what some said ... not easy to learn, especially for a non-musician, but it's worth trying to understand the program. I've been using BIAB for a while now and have been able to create some pretty darn nice compositions with BIAB. Ok, yes, I am a musician and I DO understand some of the fundamentals in music theory ... still can't read notes, though ... lol ... I am a self-taught musician by trade and play "by ear" ... I tweak and tweak until I like what I am hearing.

The level of difficulty or complexity to ME at last is that of (I am sure someone will confirm this) Sonar Producer Edition. I have yet to understand about 10% of that DAW application. And I about at the same level with BIAB. I am learning, exploring as I go. You don't see many questions from me in the Forums here, because I always try to "figure it out on my own". On top of that, I really do not have the spare time to really dig deep into either BIAB or Sonar to explore all my possibilities. TIME is something I don't have much of. Working too much, also doing an Internet Radio show every Saturday night on Mixposure.com which I have to prepare for, really doesn't allow me to DIG INTO the depths of what some of the apps such as BIAB COULD do for me.

Take it from this here "so-called musician" ... it ain't easy ... especially not if your a non-musician, non-technical and don't have time.

Cheers,
Mike


Cheers,
Mike

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[quoteThe level of difficulty or complexity to ME at last is that of (I am sure someone will confirm this) Sonar Producer Edition. ICheers,

Mike




Personally learning BiaB is much more difficult that learning Sonar PE.

Even though Sonar is an in-depth DAW with a lot of great features BiaB can do more. Just learning the melodist and soloist can be intimating, not to mention the real-stuff.

Virtually all of my songs start in BiaB and end in Sonar 5/2PE.


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I could tell, BIAB is fairly good with fitting not only for professional musicians (you have to be musically educated), but even for non-musicians (frankly speaking -housekeepers) at enough simple cases.

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Quote:

[quoteThe level of difficulty or complexity to ME at last is that of (I am sure someone will confirm this) Sonar Producer Edition. ICheers,

Mike




Personally learning BiaB is much more difficult that learning Sonar PE.

Even though Sonar is an in-depth DAW with a lot of great features BiaB can do more. Just learning the melodist and soloist can be intimating, not to mention the real-stuff.

Virtually all of my songs start in BiaB and end in Sonar 5/2PE.




Maybe your right, Mario .... you may change your mind if you were to upgrade to Sonar 8 (soon 8.3) lol ...


Cheers,
Mike

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Things like Sonar, Cubase, Protools, and the like are complicated DAW packages. and there are load of features that are there to create, process and edit audio and midi. But BiaB is not like these, as it is both more complicated, and less complicated at once. More in that it does things typical DAWs could never do, like generate mulitple tracks from patterns, and interpret chords, and create a full song from a concept. a typical DAw can do all of these but it does it from a very RAW approach, you have to build it from scratch.

I look at them as a hammer and a saw, both neede to build a house, both have different uses.


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Quote:

More in that it does things typical DAWs could never do, like generate mulitple tracks from patterns, and interpret chords, and create a full song from a concept. a typical DAw can do all of these but it does it from a very RAW approach, you have to build it from scratch.




I wouldn't say that, Rob. "create a full song from concept" A typical DAW cannot do any of those things. A DAW is a simple recorder with a ton of editing functions, that's it. It doesn't create anything. Biab will.

Bob


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I hear you, but not totally true Bob, I don't think you can say "A typical DAW cannot do any of those things" most DAWs have notation windows, piano rolls that use cut and paste, and many have drum sequencers like Session drummer etc, and midi pattern sequencers, with drop and drag samplers that allow you to build tracks from patterns, and loops. Sonar has built in features that do this and other things like V-vocal that allows you to build internally harmony tracks and such.

No these are nothing like BiaBs generation capability, where you type in chords and hit go, but they do help with creation. Most are far more complex in the spectrum of recording than BiaB, and far less complex in the area of Autogeneration.

But both platforms are feature rich these days.

I am in no way trying to be argumentive, but just sayin'

Rob


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I think the basics are pretty simple and intuitive. You type in a chord progression, choose a style, and BIAB creates an accompaniment. (Of course you have to know what chord progression you want--so that assumes some musical knowledge!)

There are other aspects, including making your own styles, that look far more complicated.

I think BIAB (probably PGMusic in general) has never been very strong in the area of documentation however, which might be part of the problem had by the OP. I think better written user manuals could be helpful. (I found it strange too, that with new versions, a new full user manual didn't come with it, but only an "upgrade" manual. So, one might have to search one's full manual from several versions back, plus all the upgrade manuals since then, to find the answer to a question one had.)

(The 2009 HDD upgrade didn't come with a printed manual at all, and I haven't looked at the electronic ones yet, so I don't know if my comments above relate to the most recent version. It was strange in the past though, with each new version only to get an "upgrade manual", and to have to keep several upgrade manuals plus an original manual (from several versions back) for reference.)

I never found the manuals very well-written. But again, the basics of BIAB are pretty simple, IMO, without looking at the manual.

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Read all about the 50+ newest features in Band-in-a-Box® 2024 for Mac®, or you can watch our video "Band-in-a-Box® 2024 for Mac®: Over 50 New Features and Enhancements!" to see it in action!

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