PG Music Home Forums General Discussion Woodshedding - Learning to Play! For the jazzers - is this cheating?

I posted this in the forums in the Gary Burton jazz improv class, but it seems like most of the people taking the class are like me - pretty much jazz improv newbies. There are a few folks in the forums that seem to know a WHOLE BUNCH about jazz improv, and they talk right over my head.

We have a lead sheet that includes the chords and the simple melody of 500 miles by Chick Corea, and we are assigned to figure out which modes work for each measure given the chords, and notes that are in the melody in the measure and sometimes in the previous measure. I've done that. The second part of the assignment is to write out the notes of each of the modal/chordal scales for each of the chord changes. I did that as well.

With the exception of the altered scale that's in a couple of measures, when I wrote out the scales, the light went on that I know I've read about before, that the 7 typical modes are just major scales for various keys. So, here is what I posted over at those forums:
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So, I've been working out scales that seem to fit in 500 miles, and as I'm writing out the scales, I'm realizing for most of them they are simply major scales of various keys (2 sharps = D major scale, but also it's E dorian, 1 flat = F major but also G dorian, etc.)

I know I've read this before, and Gary talks about it in one of the lectures, that this simple shifting takes care of the 7 modes. Now, I can nail major scales in my sleep - have known these since the 80's.

Would it be wrong to simply think of things like this?:

Lydian = V major scale
Ionian = I major scale
Mixolydian = IV major scale
Dorian = VII major scale
Aeolian = bIII major scale = I minor
Phrygian = bVII major = IV minor
Locrian = bII major = bVII minor
=============================================================

What do the jazz improvisers here think about memorizing this translation?

Just to be clear on this little table above, what I'm referring to is the degree of the scale of the chord in a measure, not the key signature for the song.

So if I have an E-7 chord, and it looks like it calls for Dorian mode, that calls for what amounts to a D major scale. And D is the 7th degree of the E scale, so that's why I wrote VII major scale. I can pretty quickly see the E, and my Dorian mode choice that I wrote down ahead of time studying the chart, and think - oh, I need to play notes in a D-major scale, but concentrate on E-7 chord notes as the main non-approach, non-passing notes.

You describe one of several ways to begin thinking about it, Scott.

If that method helps you to remember and retain, keep moving with it, as it is going to gradually become more and more familiar to you from that particular standpoint, and, once known as almost second nature, you will begin to see what they are truly called from within the kay signature of the tune or the key signature implied during a modulation such as the grand old two five one modulations where the key signature remains the same but the actual key changes only during those particular measures.

However, you need to correct some things here.

Let's look at this from the standpoint of C Major for the sake of simplicity:

Lydian = V major scale

The Lydian mode starts on the 4th of the Major Scale.

You describe the Mixolydian mode but have it under the Lydian header.

In the C Major scale, the Mixolydian scale is found from the V up, but it is NOT the C Lydian scale. It is the G Lydian (Major Scale but with flatted 7th).

Ionian = I major scale

Good old faithful you already know, but likely only in the context of the root, hence a C Major scale over a C Major chord. Also may work well over the iii (Rm) or the vi as well as the ii. in C.

Mixolydian = IV major scale

The IV, as described above, has been switched by you here.

The Lydian scale is from the IV up.

Dorian = VII major scale

Dorian mode is a minor mode. and is from the 2 up. D,E,F,G,A,B,C,D in key of C.

To say it is a Major scale built from the 7 up, it would have to be in a different key sig to work. In this case, B Major, which would throw in all sorts of accidentals (#'s in thia case) which would take it out of the key.

Aeolian = bIII major scale = I minor

Again, out of key. bIII ain't in the key of C. Aeolian must be starting on the A in C, not the Eb. The Aeolian mode is also known as the Natural minor scale.

Phrygian = bVII major = IV minor

No bIII possible from within the key.

Locrian = bII major = bVII minor

Where do all these FLATS come from?

Let's take a look from this standpoint:

The Major Scale consists of the following intervals,

1,1,1/2 - 1 - 1,1,1/2

This forces us to think in terms of the spaces between each note rather than the notes themselves and works very well no matter the key, the notenames, whatever. It is kind of like negative logic, where we are viewing the actual steps or the spaces in between the notes rather than memorizing the notes themselves. Of course, a day should and likely will come when the note names become a matter of rote due to the familiarity of practice and repetition.

Now let's look at the modes generated by the Major Scale:

Ionian -- This is the Major Scale, from 1 through 8, old faithful. If we are in that same key of C, it is from C to C.

Dorian -- This is from D to D of the C Major scale, and is not necessarily always in the key of C, but can be. Carlos Santana's favorite soloing mode is the Dorian mode.

This is the D Dorian scale, not the C Dorian scale. Try "Black Magic Woman" soloing when song is in key of Dm to see.

Phrygian -- From E to E of the C Major scale, the Tonic Triad for it is Em and thus it can work over Em chord.

Lydian -- The tonic triad for the Lydian chord is the 4th of the key we are in, so in C it would be F. The Lydian mode works well over the Fmaj7 chord.

Mixolydian -- From 5 to 5, here we generate the scale that plays over the typical turnaround chord. In C that would be a G7 chord. So in C the scale spelling is the G Mixolydian. Tonic Triad is of course, G triad.

Aeolian - This is 6 to 6 of the Major scale and is also known as the Natural minor scale. But the Nat minor isn't used all that often over minors in practice, opting for the Harmonic or Melodic minor scale instead. Modern jazz, you must learn the Melodic minor scale as well or better than you know the Major scale, BTW, as it can be the basis for much of the thing once you get more familiar with which one to use and where. Interestingly enough, the Dominant Triad for the Aeolian mode is based on the iii chord, so in C it is the Em. Works great over Em7 or Am7.

Locrian - Tonic Triad is B diminished, but its Tonic 7th chord would be the Bdim or the B half dim (Bm7b5).

Try the C Locrian scale over a 4Maj7 chord, in this case that would be the FMaj7.

So we see that while modes are *generated* by the steps of the Major scale within a certain key signature, the real trick is in knowing that each one actually has another unique key of its own.

Confused enough yet?

The path to overcoming lies in not looking for shortcuts.

Take it one mode at a time, not only do the headwork, memorizing the note names, the steps between the notes, but also practicing it over the chord as well as practicing not just in linear fashion but try skipping every other note (arpeggios happen then), playing it up and down in thirds, forths, three note climbs and descends (123-234-345-456, etc. and when moving downscale, then would become 987.876,765,654, ETC).

I hope this helps get you started, and I may have made mistakes here, just typing fast off the top of the head and all.


--Mac

Mac, It is helpful and perhaps I did not explain myself correctly as to what I meant with my roman numeral cheat sheet.

First chord of 500 miles is E-7, with the melody using D B B A F# and D, I think Dorian for E is the right scale choice. When I write out E Dorian notes, what I see there is the notes for D Major.

So, D is the 7th degree of the E scale, hence I wrote VII Major scale, not for the key signature for the song( which appears to be C), but for the specific chord.

Same song, next chord is G-7, which looking at the melody notes also seems to call for G Dorian, which when I write out the notes for it, I see F major. F is the 7th degree of the G scale so I wrote out VII Major again.

Next chord is Bbmaj7 and with the melody notes in the transcription, looks like it calls for B Lydian, which when I write out the notes - lo and behold we have the F major scale, so I wrote V major, since F is the 5th degree of the Bb scale.

B-7b5 with melody looks like B Locrian, which happens to be C major scale.

Am7 with melody looks like A Aeolian, which turns out to be C major.

And so on.

Since posting this here, I have had some good replies over at the Jazz Improv class forums and some were concerned that I would concentrate on the major chord notes of those cheat scales, but I can 'see' the proper chord notes in these major scales (for example, with the B-7b5, with C major over top, I know that B,D and F and A should be emphasized, but I also know that I have the luxury of simply using C major scale notes for approach and decoration notes in between)

So in short, my cheat table above relates to the degree of scale for the chord in question, not the key signature of the song.

I've tried this at the piano this Saturday morning, playing the proper chords left hand, and using my cheat major scale look-up, and to my ear, my noodlings actually sound pretty jazzy. There are a couple Altered scale choice chords that I'm going to have to work on. I'll post a link here probably before the weekend is out.

If you would have used the Key Signature instead of the Roman Numerals, there could be no such confusion and I do recommend that you use the keysigs rather than the Roman Numerals in your thinking, as that won't paint you into a corner later on.

Besides that, we don't really use the Roman Numerals in Jazz notation nor descriptions. It is far more common to use the Arabic numbers there. A 2m, for example.

The Guitar neck can make these things both more confusing and less confusing both at the same time. *grin*

Working with the piano at the same time as the guitar is a very good idea, can open up the world of guitar playing where far too many start out by memorizing dot patterns on the neck grid without paying enough attention to things such as which actual note is being played at a certain time, leaning on fretcount schemes to shift basically the same pattern around rather than working out the scales and modes from within the one position, things like that, which can open up an entirely different world for the guitar player wishing to really get into the art and science of improvisation.

Improvisation is really nothing more than Composing on-the-fly.


--Max

Well, here's the effort so far, after probably 10 run throughs, I decided to keep this one. 1st time through is pretty close to the proper melody, then next few times are more improv.

I will give a go on guitar now - that is probably going to be much more of a challenge at least from a fretboard knowledge standpoint.

Here's my right-hand only electric piano improv.
https://soundcloud.com/rockstar_not/500-miles-high-week-3

That's the ticket.

Remember to avoid playing the root of the chord in the improv, if you can. The more you avoid the root of the chord, the better in terms of keeping the tension up. Besides, the root is the bass player's territory and responsibility.

To bring modal thinking and the art of jazz together, all you have to do is remember to pay tribute to the pentatonics while runnin' around in the modes. Because the Blues is at the basis of jazz music.

Keep up the good work!

You'll know when you are there, because the cats you have been playing with will suddenly not want to play with you so much anymore. *grin*

Don't let that concern you, you'll find others to play with, and if you work it good enough, they will find you.


--Mac

I'm starting to have fun with this. Here's one with a synth lead I did this AM before heading off to church:

https://soundcloud.com/rockstar_not/500-miles-high-scott-lake

I'm not going to turn this one in because I have some pretty strong feedback on the delay and it obscures note choices (and there's at least one non-mode note in the 3rd or 4th run through that actually sounds cool but will probably mark me down).

Let me hit you with the old school "realtime remedy" for this problem.

"Relief is always only a half-step away."

In either direction, up or down, does not matter, just be ready to do it as soon as your mind - and not your ear - says, "uh-oh!". Waiting on the ear is too late, but sometimes happens. Just move that half step and keep on truckin' anyway. Don't. Stop. That merely serves to highlight, "I've just made a mistake." Never stop after the clunker. Make it finish a phrase. "Hey, did you guys hear me go outside on that?" - "Naw, I heard you get LOST, man!" (heh)

Keep that in mind when improvising and practice it.

That one little trick can turn a clam or clunker into nothing more than a transitional note.

From there, learn to work it via the arpeggio and not linearly and the problem soon becomes not a problem at all but can actually work in the soloist's favor.

And one more from the old schoolers:

"Whenever a problem arises, GO PENTATONIC!"

Use that Blues Scale interjection to get back on the straightahead track.


--Mac

Scott, I know exactly what you mean when you say "the light went on". That happened for me too when I finally started to understand the modes. At a certain point they all started to meld together for me and all of a sudden, wow, all the notes in my solos started to fit! That was a big deal for me.

I kind of have a convoluted way of looking at the modes, similar to how you view them, I think. If I want to play a Lydian mode I think of the scale of the 5th of the original chord. In other words, when I play a C Lydian scale I'm thinking of a G Major scale. It's just my way of thinking, warped as it may be, lol.

My biggest breakthrough, though, has been the use of arpeggios, thanks to our mutual friend Mac. He listened to a modal exercise I was playing on Youtube and he promptly said "play some arpeggios!" When Mac talks, I listen, lol.

Good luck in your jazz endeavors, Scott, what a trip it's going to be!

Lee - Yes! that's what I'm talking about but I made the mistake of using upper case Roman numerals.

With my cheat sheet I made, that's exactly how I wrote it down. C Lydian is the same as the notes of the G major scale, but I would emphasize C chord notes and make sure to toss the F sharp in there enough to give the brightness it brings.

So, to me, if I need to play let's say A Dorian, then I'm going to be doing G major as well, the 7th degree of the A scale with a major scale.

I think I will 'switch over' as I'm learning what the notes actually are - I'm hoping I won't have to think of them in this fashion; I'm hoping it will be like a 2nd language where I can switch over. My first few years of German were tough, but after having to work there and being required to speak it to get by, that's when it locked in.

-Scott

I only lasted a couple of weeks in that jazz class -- so what do I know (ha, ha).

The D dorian is not the c major scale, it is a minor scale. While thinking of it as the c major scale (it has all the same notes as the c major scale) might seem like a good move, it causes you to do a double translation in your head -- and slows you down. Learn the dorian pattern and then you don't have to think "hey I want the Z dorian, let me play the Y major scale". If it is a minor scale, then think minor.

Same with all the other modes, too.

I took the class last spring.

It seems to me that your method is fine especially in that you are aware of the chord tones at the same time.

I'm aware of three main choices for improv.

Key center soloing (one key or scale that fits over a series of chords)

Chord scale theory (one scale per chord, the Berklee way of looking at things)

Chord tone playing (targeting chord tones, arpeggios, chromatics,enclosures etc.)

It's probably a good idea to practice all three of those approaches. Ultimately you absorb all these ideas and then get to the point were you don't think of them anymore. It all just eventually becomes your music vocabulary.

I call that the, "modal troll" system.

Just a joke, for there are certain times and genres when this is the method that we *should* incorporate in order to stay faithful to the type of tune being played. Nuthin' worse than having to hear the newly learned straightahead player trying to force their newfound knowledge into a tune in which it just doesn't make sense.




This is what I call the Entry Point to Straightahead Playing.

Once it can be done inside the octave, the serious student of the hing should start working it "from the 9 forward" while learning and hearing where to place the critical ALTERED notes along the way - and that is what is meant by true "straightahead" playing as exemplified in Bebop and Modern Jazz genres.



I view this one as part of the above task, swince the chord tones or arpeggios are actually based on playing "every other note" from a given scale. The odd notes, that is.



Abwolutely. Always striving to make that practice sound as musical as you can as opposed to that sound of simply running scales with no musical purpose. If you practice doing that, that is how you will sound when things get to where you must fall back on that which you've done by rote. blecch



"Learn it, forget it, then PLAY!" -- Charlie Parker said that.

Practice is what breeds our familiarity.

Familiarity breeds contempt.

And I mean that in a NICE way.

Familiarity, then, makes us capable.


--Mac

This is the way I think of this.
Lets talk in c as this is only the white notes.

The brightest mode of any scale is the Lydian scale (NOT the Ionian as one might initially believe). This is F Lydian in the key of C. Just play the white keys from F to find this.

go down a perfect fourth from there (F) are you get the Ionian scale (C to C) often called the major scale. Play the white notes from C

go down another fourth and you get the Mixolydian scale the third brightest scale. Play the white notes from G

Down another fourth and you get the Dorian - the fourth brightest (darker and darker) Play the white notes from D

Next is the Aeolian (or natural minor) Play the white notes from A

Next the Phrygian Play the white notes from E

Next the Locrian - play white notes from B


Each step of a fourth (and the building of a scale thereof) brings a further darkening of the mode/scale

Chords derived thereof:

From the first degree (Ionian) a major triad

From the second degree a minor chord

From the third - minor
4th - major
5th dominant chord
6th minor
7th half diminished

Its very very useful to memorise this



So the degrees of the major scale, its chords and its mode, begin to make sense when you think in descending fourths.

Notice that there are two major chords and three minor chords derived from the major scale modes, and one dominant chord and one half diminished. They are always in the same positions - relatively speaking

Working around this modal system one finds, starting from the Lydian one finds that each mode in the order given above gets one additional 'flattened note'.
Starting with the Lydian one goes to the Ionian which (so to speak has the fourth tone flattened). From the Ionian the next is the Myxolidian/dominant chord - this has the 7th tone flattened. As you examine each mode in this descending order, you will find that the next step gets a further note flattened, until all notes of the parent scale are used up.

This will make more sense if you go to a keyboard and let your eyes see it.

00,

That is the approach that was proffered in the Berklee class in the 2nd week.

Now, the class is in it's 4th week, and Gary introduces something not too far afield from where my brain is already living - something he is calling 'common scale'.

Where the various chordal scales that work for different chords, are actually using the same exact notes. The fact that A Dorian is C Ionian (or what many just think of as the C-major scale). It's also Aeolian for something, but I can't recall which, if I'm not mistaken. Maybe Em?

I've kind of recognized these types of relationships by practice, without knowing the names and technical terminology. BTW I doubled the synth lead that I made for 500 Miles High to give it a little more depth. Here's the soundcloud link: https://soundcloud.com/rockstar_not/500-miles-high-scott-lake

Did not understand this. A dorian is not the same as C Ionian, A dorian has an F# its parent key is G, not C.

Correction: D Dorian, A Aeolian.

-Scott

Not sure if I understood the first statement, or the correction

Each major key has seven modes. Each mode is a scale started from a different note. There are no duplicate scales within the modes, there are duplicate chords however.


C Ionian has a major chord, same as F Lydian, but the Lydian sports a raised fourth note (in comparison).

D Dorian sports a minor chord

A Aeolian sports a minor chord and has a identical scale structure to the Dorian, except it has an additional flat 6th.

E Phrygian is the same scale structure as A Aeolian except it also sports a flat 9th (2nd). It also sports a minor chord.

No two modes have the same scale


If that is dizzying it helps to look at the piano whilst working things through

Hope that helps

Zero

C Ionian, D Dorian, E Phrygian, F Lydian, G Micxolydian, A Aeolian and B Locrian all share the key signature of C Major so no sharps or flats found in any.

D Ionian, E Dorian, F# Phrygian, g Lydian, A Micxolydian, B Aeolian and C# Locrian all share the key signature of D Major, so the two sharps, F# and C# must always be honored among these.

etc.


--Mac

Yes. Berklee calls this "common scale".

Modes with visuals:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IF47dr8sVyE

A really good explanation

Bookmarked. I like the pop music references he gives. Not unlike learning intervals by well known intervals from pop and famous tunes.

Scott, once the modes are more familiar to you through the kind of practice, exercises and mental programming you are presently working on - which doesn't take all that long actually - if you put that newfound hearing ability of identification to work by transcribing tunes that interest you, the art and practice starts to really blossom.

I've found that a lot of aspiring improvisers and composers, when confronted with the word, "transcribe" seem to think that transcribing means putting all the notes heard on paper.

While that is certainly true in the definitive sense, one can also transcribe by ear by simply working with the target song via repeatedly listening to the recording and finding the correct notes on their instrument, perhaps only a phrase or two at a time.

TIP: Once you have found the correct notes, timing and phrasing on the instrument, you won't really KNOW it until you also practice SINGING it. Or whistling it. Connecting the human voice, regardless of whether we are singers for real or not, to the piece is essential IMO.

The important thing is to find the correct notes and exactly match what is heard on the recording in that area.

I've known some who have an amazing ability to use the short and even long term memory rather than the written sheet for these things. Personally I have used BOTH methods, depending upon complexity of the piece at hand, the goal I have or the need at the moment, for example, a complicated passage that this old brain must have on paper where I can jot the note numbers on the sheet for analysing and practice purposes can represent a shortcut around the complexity of the piece. Other tunes, like Pop and such, that may not be necessary.

As the video fellow demonstrates, a lot of the popular stuff is actually a single-mode exploitation anyway.

Band in a Box's abilities are very helpful to me along these lines, for if I have laid out the target piece there, chords and Melody, I not only have an autoaccompaniment playback for practicing with, I also can print out those Lead Sheets and use them as worksheets to jot down things like the note numbers, chord numbers, mode identification, etc. for practice and study purposes.

Keep up the work, Scott!

"Send me a player who transcribes!"


--Mac

Mac, this class may be the thing that causes me to finally purchase BIAB.

Scott, if you do be sure to wait for v 2014! hehe

I just happened onto this thread, very good stuff here.

Scott, loved what you did in the first clip, hated what you did in the second clip. That synth doesn't work for me at all.

Mac (of course) caught the same thing I did. You should put an arpeggio in there and yes, pentatonics, pentatonics and more pentatonics.

I posted earlier this year that I was taking an online jazz course from an old timer jazz trumpeter, Willie Thomas. He's all over pents. They're 90% of what he teaches. Learn all the pent scales and really pay attention to where the fifth is and what that scale looks like starting on the fifth. That alone opens up a lot with these tunes.

I'm not going to reiterate the theory here, Mac and Zero have covered that well. I'm going to throw in some fast ways of thinking. Take the Eb pentatonic scale. Eb, F, G, Bb, C. What does that form? A Cm7. The classic C blues scale as Mac said. Willie says many times you want to start your pent solos on the 5th so that's Bb but you're just running a C blues scale if your target key is Eb so that's Bb, C, Eb, F, Gb, G.

One last quick cheat tidbit is chromatics. Not just one approach note, no a full chromatic scale for as long as you need it. There's another video by another very good online teacher who spends 10 minutes doing nothing but chromatics to Giant Steps. He's breaking them up for sure and he's starting and stopping in different places on the keyboard but it sounds pretty good nonetheless. Nothing but chromatic runs. I was amazed at that one and I now use that sometimes.

It's great that you're doing this Scott and I can hear that you're making good progress already.

That vid that Zero posted is a guy named Julian. He's got 72 vids and I've downloaded about 40 of them. He's very good.

Keep it up buddy!

Bob

Bear in mind that Scott must present for a particular lesson on a particular jmode or scale, it could mean a downgrade to branch out into pentas and other things.

I mentioned those things to Scott as pertaining to the final goal, which, of course, is soloing.


--Mac

Well, class is over. I'm definitely going to taking this course again. This time, I approached it from what is most familiar to me - right hand keyboard improvisation. Next time, here comes guitar or maybe bass, since I know the fretbaord better on the bottom 4 strings.

I used the pentatonic, I believe, in one of the last assignments which included a I IV V blues in dominant chords. I went ahead and dropped in flat 3rd and 5th scale degrees as accents and just play what I know from past blues jamming with friends. Much more difficult was the 'Olhos de Gato' solo, with lydian modes over top of some chords which are not brain-stem activity for me. First and last choruses of Olhos are the written out melody. I had a really hard time coming up with something that didn't clash with the backing track

Here are these two

Blues Improv: https://soundcloud.com/rockstar_not/scott-lake-week-5-blues-improv

Olhos de Gato: https://soundcloud.com/rockstar_not/olhos-de-gato-improvisation

Scott,

Loving the blues, great choice using and organ patch. This has got a jazz organ trio vibe. Digging it. This is my favorite of yours so far.

Ohlos - I think that patch works well for this tune. It sounds like you are not as comfortable on this tune as the blues, totally understandable. I do here a theme in you solo. I think you could have developed it more by soloing over two chorus.

(When I took the course) - Ohlos, that is not the usual chord progression that I'm more familar with. What worked for me on Ohlos was sticking to mostly chord tones.

Frank, that is the understatement of this thread - I was really uncomfortable with Olhos. I admit that I only had time to do record both of these assignments in one evening, and I am even more ashamed to admit that I cheated with Olhos - I punched in almost every phrase of the middle chorus after the first two chords because they were so unfamiliar to me. I then went back and recorded the leslie control over top of the 2nd chorus.

What I did do as a real stretch for me, is that I wrote out my intended solo for the 2nd chorus of Olhos in Finale Notepad. I've not 'composed' first on staff paper before - ever. I'm 46 years old. So, this was a big learning moment for me - besides all of the new background I'm starting to acquire regarding modes and scales and what not. I've always composed on the fly with an instrument in my hands or in front of me. The composition ahead of time was interesting and not entirely unpleasant. I simply didn't have access to my midi controller/DAW since we have out of town guests using the room where all of that is setup.

One of the reasons I had to punch-in that 2nd chorus was that a few of my pre-written out lines sounded AWFUL when I played them against the backing track, which I think did not really follow the written chords too closely. I had to modify my written out parts rather quickly - again, I recorded those both in about a 2 hour time frame one night last week.

Thanks again for taking the time to listen and comment. I have three new songs that I want to learn with skill from taking this course: 500 Miles High, Memories of Tomorrow and Olhos de Gato.

Keep up the exercise of writing out solos and parts without an instrument, Scott.

Two reasons come readily to mind;

*The mistakes made when working in this fashion will also serve to point out hearing foibles, perhaps intervals that are not yet owned but one day will be if you keep working on the writing first.

*Trying to compose with instrument in hand or in front of us doesn't really ever do much more than come up with that which we already know how to play. Sometimes that works, of course, but I know that method hardly ever moves someone towards something new, something a little different, something fun, and, of course, qrowth.

If you keep up with the writing practice, one day you will find that your ear is absolutely infallible.

"When you write a letter to someone, can you hear the words in your head as you write them?"

Same applies to Music, actually.


--Mac

Loved the thread.

Want to echo Mac re writing the solo. Had the awesome experience of attending a jazz camp with Bud Shank, Laurindo Almeida and Ray Brown (many many moons ago).

Learned that Laurindo (God rest his soul - what a talent) wrote almost all his solos!

Cheers.

Just a quick check-in here to thank all of the thread respondents who weighed in on my question.

I made it through the class - and that's what it feels like. Based on my assignment grades and the quizzes, I achieved an 87.6% grade.

However, I did not internalize the learning - yet.

Someone pointed me to the http://www.learnjazzstandards.com/ website which has play-along files and charts.

Plenty of fodder there to help me internalize. I really want to get the modes built-in as brain stem activity type of material. I see where my original posted idea could get in the way of that.

I also see where BIAB/RealBand could be a real boon to learning and internalizing modal approach, as I don't have good access to other folks that would be willing to school me live, at least none that I'm aware of. I can also see where I could enjoy composition in jazz stylings using these tools. I've always been more of a rock, country and folk guy (mainly because I can play guitars and keys in those stylings on my own without much need for support instrumentation).

Several outcomes that were a bit unexpected for me from taking this class:

1. I'm a Keith Jarrett convert. I remember checking out the Köln concert CD from the library perhaps 25 years ago, because I read in Keyboard magazine how cool the dude was at keys. I remember being nonplussed in listening the first time through - if I even made it all the way through. Big change for me having to learn Memories of Tomorrow and listening/watching Keith play that - oh man what a rock star! And I have an appreciation for his drummer and bass player, DeJohnette and Peacock - the abilities of all 3 together are magical. I also found a Youtube of the drummer and bass player talking about the importance of their abilities to sit at the piano and work out parts and melodies.

2. I have a renewed love for Vince Guaraldi - I have always loved 'Christmastime is Here' and the ever popular Charlie Brown theme as well as the other themes in the cartoons, but now I am able to play 'Christmastime is Here', with relative ease for my ear for my own enjoyment, but I hear so much more intelligence in how Vince picks notes and thick yet open chord voicings.

3. Gotta bust out ye olde Weather Report, Chick Corea Elektrik Band and other stuff that I've had gathering dust.

4. I thought that taking the class might help me to appreciate bop/bebop. It did not. I can appreciate the technical mastery needed to play such styles, but dang it if it doesn't just makes me bored and tired of hearing too many 'wrong notes' (to quote Spinal Tap's Nigel Tufnel) "Naima" remains my favorite Coltrane tune by a huge margin. Why? A melody that one can follow through the entire piece. With the note blitzkrieg that happens often in bebop, it's like one is having a nice conversation with someone; on a topic that is shared, and then the soloist decides it's time to become a teenaged girl on the phone and yammer on incessantly and simultaneously about five different boys, the latest teen fashions, 3 different movies, all the while texting and posting messages to facebook. My ears 'glaze over' and I simply lose interest. Maybe I'm just slow! For example, on Giant Steps, I'm in for the first 30 seconds - then after that it's just noise to me. I can follow bits of modal stuff here and there, but I'd much rather hear more development on the melody introduced in the first 30 seconds. I can't wait for it to come back. He takes way to long to come back in my opinion. I realize this is blasphemy to read for some.

Anyways, I'm already hoping to waitlist for the next run through the class. I'm hoping to nail Memories of Tomorrow and 500 Miles High with aplomb between now and then.

Enough rambling - thank you all again for your advice given in this thread. And for those of you interested to give jazz improvisation a crack - can't go wrong signing up for the free Berklee online course: https://www.coursera.org/course/improvisation

Takes a bit of time, Scott, and dedication of disclipline, of course.

Think of it this way - if this was something that could be easily mastered in a day, a week, or even a month, it wouldn't be worth the bother.

My advice as to approach is to take it one mode at a time in daily practice. Find a tune in which working that one mode is apropos, and work it. Then find another tune and do it again.

Familiarity happens with repetition.

Working to internalize these kind of things one at a time, rather than skipping around from one to the other, gets most people "there" a lot faster overall.

Keep it up!


--Mac

How to make a Solo "Talk"--

Think of a phrase of words in your native language.

PLAY the timing of those words, using the chosen mode or scale.


Repeat, using another word phrase.


Don't try to think up grandiose big words. KISS


--Mac

Rockstar, you're living in a great area for jazz instruction. There are many active and retired military musicians around the Springs. Check some of them out. The union would probably be a good place to start. Later, Ray

Ray and Mac, thanks for the encouragement. Ray, I'm from Detroit originally and there, there is basically one union. Which union are you referring to?

Mac, this is the list of standards at learnjazzstandards.com

http://learnjazzstandards.com/index-of-jazz-standards/

Would there be some that jump out at you as obvious songs to go through and learn individual modes by playing along/soloing? I'm up for transposing to learn the modes for different keys.

Quit looking for others to do your homework for you.

That is, if you really want to learn what's up.

The Jamie Aebersold Chord/Scale syllablus, plus other materials, likely stuff you got from your recent course, will show you which chords allow for which modes and scales.

Look through the songs for those chords and chord groups, govern your practicing around that.

This is the only way I know to start envisualizing "songs" as groups of chord changes and that is where total improvisational ability and thus freedom is derived.

*Pick ANY song out of that Standards book.

*Find a good performance of that song on the web, places such as Youtube.

*LISTEN to the greats play the song a few times, then pick up the chart and look at it while you listen to them play the song again and again.

*Even (and especially!) if you are an instrumentalist, find the lyrics for the target song and LEARN THEM AS WELL. Internalizing a Melody around its Lyrics is so important, actually, and should be something done with every jazz tune encountered. This helps so much, not only in the phrasing when playing the Melody part, but also in deriving phrasing that makes sense when soloing.

*Pick up your instrument and start learning the song, chords first, scales and modes after that.

*Stick with that song until you have *internalized* it and can blow it in at least several different keys.

*Find someone's recorded solo that really strikes you, even and especially if done on an instrument different from yours, and transcribe that solo. Spend as much time on this as it takes, knowing that each time we transcribe the task will indeed get to be that much easier and will take less time than the previous transcription.

*Finally, force your feet to DANCE while you play. Seated or standing, at least the one foot tapping or patting in perfect time.


--Mac

Hey, I realize that for me to learn this, it is for me to learn it. I'm much farther down the road through the effort that the Berklee course required. It was not easy for this guy who has 30+ years of bad habits to unlearn.

I was asking about your comment in a couple posts above where it sounded like there may be songs where a single mode method dominates. This quote right here:



We didn't have that in the standards that were used in the course, in my opinion. The individual songs had many instances of 1 mode per bar and in my opinion, 1 bar is not enough to get a flow going in the mode. So, I thought your quote meant that there are songs where even though there might be chord changes, a single mode dominates. I'm not skilled enough, yet, to see that outright. I had to work, measure by measure, writing out my solos, after I had figured out which mode matched a measure (and I didn't always get this right) etc.

The course and it's forums, and the comments in this thread are all of the jazz instruction I've had. The forum is basically dead for the course. So, I'm back asking questions here because I continue to work on what little I learned even though the course has been done for a month now. I have the Aebersold chord lexicon laminated and keep it in my backpack and haul it out for study. Time at the axe/keyboard is often spent learning what I'm required to play for the band at church; 4-5 new songs every 2 weeks, and we strive to match radio cuts of the songs so that it's not distracting to the congregation and gets them singing.

If there might be songs in that big list of over 100 where certain modes dominate, I would appreciate knowing what those are if they simply jump to mind. That's all. I would like to avoid those that have too many change-ups of modal approach. I have Dorian and Aeolian down from years of rock playing and not knowing that's what they were called.

Mac, one other thing - so much of what you wrote above is how I started to learn for the class- even though it wasn't taught directly.

For example, Gary Burton posted an unrecognizable solo snippet of "What Is This Thing Called Love?" for the first week assignment and asked us to analyze his solo and to do our own solo.

I had no idea it was a standard - no attribution was given as to the writer, etc. until someone in the class forums posted some YouTube links to some old and current versions of the song.

All of the sudden, even without playing it - I knew the melody and was able to 'write out' how I would play it in my head. I will see if I kept a take from my first attempts before hearing the lyrics and melody. It was awful. After studying the chart while listening to many different versions, I tracked this straight through after perhaps 5 runs practicing. Not perfect, but the method you described is exactly what I did: https://soundcloud.com/rockstar_not/what-is-this-thing-called-love

The only way I know to get the familiarity with the changes to the various standards is what I posted above, Scott.

Yes, having a Melody in your head that matches the changes is a very good way to approach soloing IMO. It also avoids that situation where a player is playing "all the right notes" but isn't making very much coherent sense out of them.

There is also a method in which a player designs or derives their own custom Melody to fit the chord changes. This too can create a coherency that people will sense more than hear out of the expectancy that comes from the listener also knowing the Melody.

Matter of fact, that is what Charlie Parker did with just about all of his great Bebop tunes - each one is a different Melody put to the changes of a tune popular at the time.

For one example, Bird's "Koko" is based on the "Cherokee" changes.