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Circle gets a dim or dim7? Question on the circle in jazz charts #220995 11/12/13 03:49 PM Woodshedding - Learning to Play!
Joined: Jan 2002 Posts: 7,913 Colorado Springs, CO, USA R rockstar_not OP Veteran
OP rockstar_not Veteran R Joined: Jan 2002 Posts: 7,913 Colorado Springs, CO, USA	So, right now in the Berklee Jazz Improv course, we are analyzing a backing track for Keith Jarrett's "Memories of Tomorrow", also known as Köln part II, so I'm told. We have a lead sheet and chord symbols. In the 5th measure the chords move from F to F#o to C/G in the 6th measure. In other parts of this particular chart, the 7th chords are written out explicitly, eg. FMA7, Am7, Am(nat7) Bb7sus4, Bb7, etc. I've read that the 'o' can mean either a diminished triad based chord like 1 b3 b5, OR it can also mean that there's another minor triad stacked on the top for 1 b3 b5 bb7, or 1 b3 b5 6 enharmonically. In Keith Jarrett's famous version of this song, I never hear the movement from F to F#o that is indicated on our lead sheet (measure 5). I can see why someone would write it, but in every run through here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3l0cNP3sBW8, I can't hear that bass-line or any hint notes at anything diminished. He plays it through 5-7 times, slowing it way down about half-way through. So, we are supposed to use the backing track we've been provided, which does walk that bass up from F to F# to G in a C/G chord in the next measure. What do you jazzers say is common practice for the 'o' symbol by itself? Diminished triad, or 3 minor triads stacked on each other? Why is this important for this assignment? We are supposed to be identifying 'guide lines' or rising and/or falling series of notes that progress like a scale, that are hinted at by the chords in the chart and in the melody. Perhaps it doesn't matter and that 3rd minor triad note always will sit well no matter if it's explicitly written out or not? Any informed response is welcome here! Well, the 2nd part of the assignment is to solo over the backing track. Here is one case where I wish I could play what I'm hearing in my head - because it sounds SO much better than what I can get my fingers to do right now. But what an ace song! This one goes into my 'practice file' for improvement. Last edited by rockstar_not; 11/12/13 03:52 PM. My Songs, photos, writing,etc. My Sound Cloud

Re: Circle gets a dim or dim7? Question on the circle in jazz charts rockstar_not #220996 11/12/13 04:02 PM Woodshedding - Learning to Play!
Joined: Jul 2008 Posts: 216 San Diego, California Frankp Apprentice
Frankp Apprentice Joined: Jul 2008 Posts: 216 San Diego, California	It is customary in Jazz for just the o to mean diminished 7, more often it is notated with the 7 like o7. Regardless, try it both ways and let your ear decide. I used a diminished 7 for that assignment. Last edited by Frankp; 11/13/13 09:07 AM. Frank Some tunes from me and my collaborator: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCvGqM6ktMW5ltTnyit1KWPg/videos Band-in-a-Box Ultrapak 2019, Windows 11, Reaper, Behringer u-phoria UMC404HD, Kali LP-8

Re: Circle gets a dim or dim7? Question on the circle in jazz charts rockstar_not #220997 11/12/13 04:20 PM Woodshedding - Learning to Play!
Joined: Jan 2002 Posts: 7,913 Colorado Springs, CO, USA R rockstar_not OP Veteran
OP rockstar_not Veteran R Joined: Jan 2002 Posts: 7,913 Colorado Springs, CO, USA	Frank, thanks for your reply. I just listened to your version - very tasteful. I also just started following you on SoundCloud. Your backing track in 500 Miles High - did you do that with BIAB or RealBand? This Keith Jarrett - I'm in gratitude to the Berklee class for re-introducing me to his stuff. I remember checking out the Köln concert CD or Cassette probably 25 years ago, and I just didn't get 'the hype'. Now this is jazz that I can totally dig. I can hear the story that Keith tells in his playing, whereas I still don't get bop stuff other than the really slow stuff like Naima from Coltrane. I have to record my version tonight. Last edited by rockstar_not; 11/12/13 04:25 PM. My Songs, photos, writing,etc. My Sound Cloud

Re: Circle gets a dim or dim7? Question on the circle in jazz charts rockstar_not #220999 11/12/13 04:27 PM Woodshedding - Learning to Play!
Joined: Jul 2008 Posts: 216 San Diego, California Frankp Apprentice
Frankp Apprentice Joined: Jul 2008 Posts: 216 San Diego, California	Have fun recording. I did the backing track for 500 miles high with BIAB and then exported to Reaper where I added my guitar playing and mixed it. Cheers Frank Some tunes from me and my collaborator: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCvGqM6ktMW5ltTnyit1KWPg/videos Band-in-a-Box Ultrapak 2019, Windows 11, Reaper, Behringer u-phoria UMC404HD, Kali LP-8

Re: Circle gets a dim or dim7? Question on the circle in jazz charts rockstar_not #221000 11/12/13 04:47 PM Woodshedding - Learning to Play!
Joined: Jan 2002 Posts: 7,913 Colorado Springs, CO, USA R rockstar_not OP Veteran
OP rockstar_not Veteran R Joined: Jan 2002 Posts: 7,913 Colorado Springs, CO, USA	Here's my 500 Miles High assignment with a synth lead: https://soundcloud.com/rockstar_not/500-miles-high-scott-lake My Songs, photos, writing,etc. My Sound Cloud

Re: Circle gets a dim or dim7? Question on the circle in jazz charts rockstar_not #221004 11/12/13 05:23 PM Woodshedding - Learning to Play!
Joined: Jul 2008 Posts: 216 San Diego, California Frankp Apprentice
Frankp Apprentice Joined: Jul 2008 Posts: 216 San Diego, California	Cool Scott, I wrote some comments on the wave file. Thanks for sharing Cheers. Frank Some tunes from me and my collaborator: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCvGqM6ktMW5ltTnyit1KWPg/videos Band-in-a-Box Ultrapak 2019, Windows 11, Reaper, Behringer u-phoria UMC404HD, Kali LP-8

Re: Circle gets a dim or dim7? Question on the circle in jazz charts rockstar_not #221007 11/12/13 05:53 PM Woodshedding - Learning to Play!
Joined: May 2000 Posts: 38,502 Chesapeake, Virginia USA M Mac Veteran
Mac Veteran M Joined: May 2000 Posts: 38,502 Chesapeake, Virginia USA	F#o would be the full diminished, F#,A,C,D# in closed position. The slashed circle shorthand always refers to the Half Diminished, which is also the same as the min7b5, F#,A,C,E. --Mac PGmusic FAQs, Tutorials and Updates! click here You must be Audiominds. www.audiominds.com

Re: Circle gets a dim or dim7? Question on the circle in jazz charts rockstar_not #221011 11/12/13 06:54 PM Woodshedding - Learning to Play!
Joined: Jul 2000 Posts: 26,179 Hudson Valley & Lake George NY Matt Finley Veteran
Matt Finley Veteran Joined: Jul 2000 Posts: 26,179 Hudson Valley & Lake George NY	I concur with Mac. Also, a diminished seventh chord is in a sense endless. In the example Mac gave, you can continue on up with an F# etc. making as many sets of diminished triads as you want. BIAB 2024 Win Audiophile. Software: Studio One 6.5 Pro, Swam horns, Acoustica-7, Notion 6; Win 11 Home. Hardware: Intel i9, 32 Gb; Roland Integra-7, Presonus Studio 192, Presonus Faderport 8, Royer 121, Adam Sub8 & Neumann 120 monitors

Re: Circle gets a dim or dim7? Question on the circle in jazz charts rockstar_not #221027 11/12/13 10:58 PM Woodshedding - Learning to Play!
Joined: Jan 2002 Posts: 7,913 Colorado Springs, CO, USA R rockstar_not OP Veteran
OP rockstar_not Veteran R Joined: Jan 2002 Posts: 7,913 Colorado Springs, CO, USA	Well, here's my efforts on Memories of Tomorrow - I didn't even have room with my skill to do anything with the F#o other than sneak in the F#. I will be working on this song. I hear stuff in my head that I want to do and I simply can't do it at speed. I will probably record my own backing tracks to start slowly. https://soundcloud.com/rockstar_not/memories-of-tomorrow-week-4 Last edited by rockstar_not; 11/12/13 10:58 PM. My Songs, photos, writing,etc. My Sound Cloud

Re: Circle gets a dim or dim7? Question on the circle in jazz charts rockstar_not #221064 11/13/13 09:06 AM Woodshedding - Learning to Play!
Joined: May 2000 Posts: 38,502 Chesapeake, Virginia USA M Mac Veteran
Mac Veteran M Joined: May 2000 Posts: 38,502 Chesapeake, Virginia USA	When encountering either of the diminished chords and soloing, the Diminished Scale is what to pick notes from. This is one of the easiest scales to use, but may be hard to get under the fingers and in the brain at first. Stick at it, because the payoff comes in the fact that there are only TWO diminished scales to learn, ever, and one or the other will work over ANY of the diminished chords. Think in steps and half steps, not note names. Start on one of the notes of the diminished chord to begin with. Likely the root at first, later on start working on being able to quickly come up with the flatted third, flatted fifth, and, of course both sevenths involved, as you can start on each of these as well. Two scales only: 1/2,1,1/2,1,1/2,1 etc. or 1.1/2,1,1/2,1,1/2 etc. VERY important thing to learn, so start with the standard practice stuff on it. Get the patterns in the head, for any and all instruments you may happen to be dealing with. "Caravan" -- This is the tune and backing to work with, as the dim repeats enough in it to make it fun and easier to learn those two scales. Being able to solo nicely over Caravan changes is a Rite of Passage kind of thing. Where I come from, if you couldn't do it, you couldn't get a gig! Let Michael Petrucciani demonstrate the usage and wonderful sound of the diminished scale in soloing over Caravan changes for us: Start by analyzing the chords to Caravan, it actually is a sort of switcharound on Rhythm Changes in which the first part consists of alternating between Maj and Dim chords - and the bridge is the old familiar Rhythm Change thang of going up a third to a Dom7, up a 4th, Dom7, repeating that twice more until the chord you are playing is the turnaround V7 for the key and back to the head again. --Mac PGmusic FAQs, Tutorials and Updates! click here You must be Audiominds. www.audiominds.com

Re: Circle gets a dim or dim7? Question on the circle in jazz charts Mac #221066 11/13/13 09:24 AM Woodshedding - Learning to Play!
Joined: Jan 2002 Posts: 7,913 Colorado Springs, CO, USA R rockstar_not OP Veteran
OP rockstar_not Veteran R Joined: Jan 2002 Posts: 7,913 Colorado Springs, CO, USA	Mac, I can only follow at the 2:35 section and 3:00 section where he slows it down. I'm a new fan of Keith Jarrett, because at least what I've listened to these past couple of days is slow enough that I can almost track what he's playing. Maybe he has more quick songs like this one above, but I really enjoyed what he did with Memories of Tomorrow, where he cuts the speed in 1/2 for the last few runs through. The firestorm that Petrucciani displays throughout that video is cool to listen to, but being rather new to listening to rapid-fire playing like this just sort of glazes my eyes over. I have a really hard time hearing/seeing - what you very clearly laid out in your post, while listening. I can't tell if when Petrucciani slows down if it's the same note sequences and scales as in the other parts of the song or not. My Songs, photos, writing,etc. My Sound Cloud

Re: Circle gets a dim or dim7? Question on the circle in jazz charts rockstar_not #221067 11/13/13 09:30 AM Woodshedding - Learning to Play!
Joined: May 2000 Posts: 38,502 Chesapeake, Virginia USA M Mac Veteran
Mac Veteran M Joined: May 2000 Posts: 38,502 Chesapeake, Virginia USA	This may be a good time to talk about ways of practicing those Scales and Modes so that we have a facility for "grabbing" them while soloing. The first thing to work on is the obvious, and that is being able to play the scale cleanly and "in a row" for at least two octaves before turning around and heading back in the other direction as well. 1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8,9,10,11,12,13,14,15,16,15,14,13,12,11,10,9... etc. Understand that those numbers represent the note order or succession in each particular mode at hand, NOT the notename numbers. Therefore, if the scale is minor, the "3" is understood to be the b3, etc. Once that pattern is familiar and we are able to play it - always always striving to make it sound musical in nature and not just a robotic sounding execution. One way to work towards the goal of musicality at all times is to play games with the dynamics as you practice the scale. Try the easiest first, which is always a good approach, and that would be the emulation of what wind instrument players naturally do, Crescendo (gradually get louder) as you play upscale, Decrescendo as you play downscale. Later on, try the opposite (!) which is to get gradually softer going upscale and the reverse. Now comes the part where we practice the scale in such fashion as we gain total "ownership" of it. This involves practicing first in repeating groups. 123,234,345,456,567... etc. and when you get to the "top" - which, remember, is always two octaves from where you started or more, make the "musical sounding" turnaround and head back downscale in the same fashion, "unwinding" it. 789,876,765,654,543,432,321,217,1... And always hold that last "1" out for at least three beats if working in 4/4 time. Then try doing it in "fours". Same type of thing as the above, but this time there will be 4 notes involved in each group instead of three. 1234,2345,3456,4567,5678,... etc. "Every Other Note" drill: 13,24,35,46,57,68,79,8... By now you should be able to guess the next one: Same thing, but this time skipping 2 notes to go in 4ths: 14,25,36,47,58,69... Arpeggios are simply playing every other odd note of the scale. I teach approaching the dreaded Arpeggio at the same time as the scales, saves time, and you don't end up viewing the Arpeggio as something different from those scales and modes, for it is not. This I think is especially important for guitarists, as I've found that with the keyboard, the operator can "see" every other note a bit more easily than we can with the fretboard view, likely due to the string breaks and fret counts. So the guitarist should view the arpeggios as patterns derived from chord shapes first, IMO. But eventually the two goals should merge to where we aren't really even thinking all that while playing, we should know them so well at some point where in our mind we are merely calling, "macros" ie thinking, "This would be a good place for..." and the execution of that is so well known and understood, the muscle memory from practice is "right there" and you simply execute the move, while the mind is left free to listen to the muse that will give us something to do in the NEXT part of the solo. Maybe insert a nice quote. Or maybe its time for a little bit o' the blooz. (If there's a dom7 chord or two comin' up, time for blooz, certainly. Don't neglect the #9 here, ya'll. Not the chord, just the note.) Always practice counting and playing evenly when doing these drills, pays to get and use a metronome. Always strive to make your scale drills sound MUSICAL. Don't fall prey to having the hands execute the drill while the mind goes elsewhere. Sure sign of attempting to practice it too much in one session. Put it down and go do something else, come back to it. This kind of practice seems to work best for me and my few students these days by making yourself confirm to a "short but sweet" approach: Ten minutes at a seating, Twenty minutes per, tops. Hope this Helps Scott as well as others, --Mac PGmusic FAQs, Tutorials and Updates! click here You must be Audiominds. www.audiominds.com

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