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Woodshedding - Learning to Play!
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Howdy all,
I played upright bass in four bluegrass bands and one blues group from the early 1970's until Janice and I decided to leave our last band several years back. A little subsequent living room picking faded into us only being avid listeners of many genres. Then two years ago we discovered BIAB. I'd mixed off and on since 1966 so it seemed like a fun adventure and a great opportunity to let Janice get back into her vocal/guitar chops and perhaps encourage me to restring the old bass fiddle. But a funny thing happened along this journey.
The acoustic bass RTs are just fantastic and the more I worked with them the less I was inclined to get back in the playing groove. If I couldn't get quite what I wanted out of a track I'd just splice in a few notes here and there, throw in a little compression and get what I wanted. So.....instead of getting my bass chops back via BIAB I've decided it's more fun to piece together RT segments. And, man, is it easier than trying to record/engineer myself on that fiddle.
I was stunned from the get-go by the quality of the RTs, all of them, and now have spent two years creating my own version of RTs in my DAW. The possibilities are just without limits and I guess being a retired ole phart helps as I have the time for it.
I was just wondering if anybody else has experienced this reversal of what I assume is the more typical use of RT, that is, using them to enhance your playing. I just never tire of seeing the reaction of accomplished musicians when I expose them to the powers of this software.
Last edited by Janice & Bud; 11/25/13 04:20 PM.
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Woodshedding - Learning to Play!
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This is a reasonable question, and insightful. I think it only applies, though, to those who play an instrument that BIAB can "replace" like guitar, bass, drums, vibes or piano. Even then, the splicing of RealTracks snippets causes effects that an actual competent player of that instrument would immediately notice. These include chord voicing and range choices.
I can't really comment, as the wind instruments I play are not close enough to being replaced yet. If we ever get a lot more wind instrument RealTracks, I may start to feel what you are feeling.
BIAB 2025 Win Audiophile. Software: Studio One 7 Pro, Swam horns, Acoustica-7, Notion 6, Song Master Pro, Win 11 Home. Hardware: Intel i9, 32 Gb; Roland Integra-7, Presonus 192 & Faderport 8, Royer 121, Adam Sub8 & Neumann 120 monitors.
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Woodshedding - Learning to Play!
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Exactly the opposite in my case, some of the RealTracks actually inspire me to get busy and take off some of that great stuff.
Band in a Box is often viewed as a One Trick Pony, it seems, a shame, for it not only can be used in your production work, it is also - and first and foremost IMO - A Music Practice program.
Try learning one of those hot Bass parts sometime, you may just find another great use for a great program.
--Mac
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Woodshedding - Learning to Play!
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The opposite holds true here also. I am not only playing more but I would have never been able to venture into the many various styles/genres BiaB offers if I didn’t experiment with BiaB. BiaB is also a tremendous helper as I learn the EWI-USB.
I know everyone’s workflow is different but personally I would rather play that to cut and paste. I think that is why I lean to the MIDI side of BiaB more that the RT side, although I do use RTs on occasion. This is not a criticism of those who do cut and paste it’s just not my style although on occasion I do cut and paste MIDI.
Unclear if the pianist is a total beginner or a professional jazz player?
64 bit Win 10 Pro, the latest BiaB/RB, Roland Octa-Capture audio interface, a ton of software/hardware
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Woodshedding - Learning to Play!
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Hi Bud
It is a bit of both for me. BIAB has definitely inspired me to learn to play the guitar properly. But that is mainly for my live performances. Being a one person act it helps to have a guitar! BUT I don’t intend to use my own performance on the guitar to record. BIAB is so much better that I can aspire to be.
I took my debut CD to a professional to master. He does the mastering for about all the musicians in South Africa (nice little business if you can get it!). All my tracks are BIAB except one that ROG did. I asked him what he thought and he said he was very impressed with what I had put together. He said a lot of people spend hours and hours in the studio to achieve that..So a compliment I guess.
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Woodshedding - Learning to Play!
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I agree, relate with Matt and Mac here a great deal. I appreciate the RTS, genuinely and BIAB has been a tremendous learning tool and production assist for me. Still is. As for 'production' quality, it is hit and miss for me. The original 'performances' and recordings are generally great, but as soon as some instruments get stretched or key shifted, the artifacts are too much. You hear this in the majority of the 'showcase' tunes. Due to the artifacts and particular quality of 'sound' that BIAB generates, the RTs are easy to spot. I think the 'initial' introduction to RTs and BIAB to musicians is always favorable and often impressive, but once they work it for some time, the natural limitations present themselves. I have tried to learn riffs from RTs but many riffs don't translate properly to different keys in real life. It is what it is and for me I am grateful for such a great program. I know its limits now, I am hoping to use to it to expand my own.
Cheers!
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Woodshedding - Learning to Play!
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but as soon as some instruments get stretched or key shifted, the artifacts are too much. You hear this in the majority of the 'showcase' tunes...
I'd like to hear some of these artifacts. I'm not being coy -- I'm serious. If they are in the majority of the showcase tunes, I'd appreciate having a few pointed out. Use my tunes, I don't mind at all. It may be my aged ears but the only times I hear issues of that nature are when a RT is played out of the recommended tempo range. As far as key shifted, well they have to be shifted as I'm not aware of how to determine what key they were originally played in - but I could certainly be wrong. Thanks!
Last edited by Janice & Bud; 11/26/13 12:02 PM.
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Woodshedding - Learning to Play!
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I've never encountered any sort of digital artifacts when changing keys on any of the RealTracks since the advent of the Elastique stretch engine some versions ago.
Guitar players using the transpose feature may encounter such things as use of open strings, positions, string timbre, etc. that are not exactly easy to duplicate when the file is transposed from the original key that the RealTrack may have been played.
--Mac
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Woodshedding - Learning to Play!
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TexasHeartRush,
Maybe I do not understand just how the term "artifacts" is being used here and what it represents in an actual realtrack. But what I do here from time to time is a certain "run" or "note sequence/voicing" that I instantly recognize as realtracks. But that is because I am familiar with the sequences/voicing's, but what is more important to me is that my audience does not hear what I am hearing or for that matter care if a sequence or voicing was repeated during a song or two even if they do hear it. Now for recording my mileage may vary.
PS: I think due to realtracks I am actually playing more both actual physical guitar playing and also booking more gigs.
Later,
Last edited by Danny C.; 11/26/13 02:19 PM. Reason: PS
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Woodshedding - Learning to Play!
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I did a set of backing tracks for a friend who took them to a local studio to record the vocals and mix the tracks. There had been some pretty heavy stretching and splicing on the first track because I had trouble finding RealTracks that matched the feel, the the studio owner mentioned that it sounded pretty "ripped up". I believed him, but (much to my irritation) I couldn't hear the artifacts. My ears aren't that good... yet. Fortunately, the rest of the tracks sounded fine. After recording the vocals (mine needing heavy pitch correction  ) and mixing, my friend was thrilled with the results. There is repetition in some RealTracks, but that's the nature of the beast. But the convenience of using them versus of recording the tracks myself usually means I'll only record a track myself as a last resort. On the other hand, BiaB has been particularly valuable in teaching my kids how to play instruments. It's great for examples of how a "real" player might approach a part. And it's a lot more fun to practice with a band. And teaching my kids to play bass has me playing bass now. If I'd known bass was so much fun to play, I'd have gotten one a long time ago!
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Woodshedding - Learning to Play!
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There had been some pretty heavy stretching and splicing on the first track because I had trouble finding RealTracks that matched the feel, the the studio owner mentioned that it sounded pretty "ripped up".!
Hey David, by stretching do you mean tempo changes within BIAB or DAW manipulation? Thanks.
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Woodshedding - Learning to Play!
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Sorry, I should have been more clear. I meant stretching via DAW. I couldn't find a good match for the feel or the tempo, so I hacked parts together by splicing and stretching in the DAW.
I thought it sounded OK, but the pro caught it right away.
As I mentioned, the other tracks were better matches, and didn't have that problem because I hadn't abused them in the same way.
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Woodshedding - Learning to Play!
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When I first got into recording I had a 4 track tape machine, a bass, guitar, mic, and a Roland tr 707 programmable drum machine.
My listening to music got very detailed at that time. I might just focus on a hi-hat for instance, trying to figure out the hi-hats role in a certain style of music.
Now, mostly using real tracks, I've lost the need to focus on how to fit the detail parts together.
There are pros and cons to that. I can certainly focus more on the bigger picture now, things like song structure, lyrics etc.
I wonder if I'm missing some of the education I use to get when I had to focus so much on the details.
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Woodshedding - Learning to Play!
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but as soon as some instruments get stretched or key shifted, the artifacts are too much. You hear this in the majority of the 'showcase' tunes...
I'd like to hear some of these artifacts. I'm not being coy -- I'm serious. If they are in the majority of the showcase tunes, I'd appreciate having a few pointed out. Use my tunes, I don't mind at all. It may be my aged ears but the only times I hear issues of that nature are when a RT is played out of the recommended tempo range. As far as key shifted, well they have to be shifted as I'm not aware of how to determine what key they were originally played in - but I could certainly be wrong. Thanks! Sure, will look at your tunes when I have some time and give you some specific detail. These may be 'subtle' to many and un-noticeable by the audience within a mix, but they are clear to me and honestly I can't imagine why they wouldn't be? They sound exactly like what they are, 'time stretched' , or tempo stretched audio. I have been in production for alot of years but I don't think my ears are more attuned here. These are clear. Nuendo (and now Cubase) has had 'elastique' time stretch for years. It is a great tool when used sparingly. When too many RTs, or the wrong RT is stretched, it just has too many artifacts for me beyond utility purposes. (Hey BTW, I have the regular 2013 Everything Pak, not the Audiophile version) I assume most here are not using the Audiophile version. 'Artifacts' meaning jitter, warble, loss of note definition, slurred notes, mushy tones, loss of high end. This is true of almost all electric guitar to me and most electric bass whether in key range or not. Some are subtle, yes. Some less so. And for most instruments we have a general idea where it was played based on the feel of the riff. Same riff in different places has different feels. For me RT Drums are best. Generally always usable. Bass is very usuable within a mix, but artifacts outside of the mix. Fiddle can go either way, sometimes great sometimes really bad when the pitch is too far from the original. Upright bass is generally good and I find its natural timbre support that. Banjo can go either way. Acoustics are pretty good overall. Some great, some less. And some instruments are really excellent or certain tracks within the genre or instrument are excellent. I don't do the pianos or horns yet. Some times I hear a RT tune with BIAB and with too many RTs it hard to listen all the way through. Even with a good song. Reminds me of an overplayed cassette transfer sometimes. Not always, but when too many RTs are used, it can get there. I love them sparingly myself place within the mix. So Bud (?) Ill listen when I get the chance and try to give several examples. For demos and home-spun CDs or albums, I find that Rts are a great support. For me I use them to write mostly, but play the tracks live for more serious recordings. Thats just me. Cheers!!
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Woodshedding - Learning to Play!
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Thanks. I really appreciate you taking the time to explain that at length. Everything we've posted on the user forum has been all RTs and the genres range from blues to swing to country to reggae. When convenient I'd much appreciate an example or two. I doubt that my hearing is acute enough to hear the artifact(s) but I'd like to confirm that. Thanks again.
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Woodshedding - Learning to Play!
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Some times I hear a RT tune with BIAB and with too many RTs it hard to listen all the way through. Even with a good song. Reminds me of an overplayed cassette transfer sometimes. Not always, but when too many RTs are used, it can get there. I love them sparingly myself place within the mix. [
No argument there at all. I think that much of that slathering on of RTs is the noob thinking that "more gotta be better" though. I'm thinking back to how many times in the studio, I found it easier to turn in a Piano, Rhodes, Wurly or Organ track by "putting my left hand in my pocket" *grin* Or, when playing in the guitar track, avoiding those huge grand barre chords in favor of little two and three noters that don't get in the way but say only what they need to say. Ill listen when I get the chance and try to give several examples. For demos and home-spun CDs or albums, I find that Rts are a great support. For me I use them to write mostly, but play the tracks live for more serious recordings. Thats just me. Cheers!! It is not just you, my friend, there are a group of us who use BB for sketchouts, writing, arrangement to a certain extent, let the live musicians have both the bb created audio file plus the bb chart to it, easily delivered via the 'net and out of expensive realtime, but then take the project into the studio to record with live musicians. Matt Findley does that same thing also. --Mac
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Woodshedding - Learning to Play!
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Thanks. I really appreciate you taking the time to explain that at length. Everything we've posted on the user forum has been all RTs and the genres range from blues to swing to country to reggae. When convenient I'd much appreciate an example or two. I doubt that my hearing is acute enough to hear the artifact(s) but I'd like to confirm that. Thanks again. Sure thing! I just listened to 30 secs of one link in your sig tag 'Don't Sell it" and the artifacts are there instantly starting with fiddle on the left side. I realized the term ' out of phase' is appropriate to describe the sound. Serious comb-filter-esque. (BTW, the song itself, the arrangement and singing are really great. Good work! They carry the energy well) That is not part of the issue or content of my post. Its never enough to distract from a demo but it would have to be used cautiously in production for me. I think your style of music has a bit more freedom and liberties in some ways since acoustics sound the least artificial. ...and yet so many organic instruments can stack up in BIAB also. Never an easy call. I don't have time today but I will look at a few of these with detail. When they RTS are 'soloed' it can become more obvious. I would like also to post examples of non-phased, well recorded production from my studio as a contrast. Solid, clear rich organic (instrument) content. The contrast may be of some help. I think we as creative DIY types can get into a groove that supports our current needs and goals and we may get used to a sound and then it becomes acceptable to us even if a portion of the standard has been lowered. The benefits or higher standard performances of RT (and convenience) may outweigh the decreased sonic quality for some, simply based on where they are, what goals they have or what is important to them. All of it valid. BIAB is just a great tool for a variety of needs. Often times when we re-visit past work we see the value in diligent production effort and real instrumentation. I find this true of myself and yet sometimes an RT is the final high-quality support for the tune for me. Cheers Bud!
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Woodshedding - Learning to Play!
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Some times I hear a RT tune with BIAB and with too many RTs it hard to listen all the way through. Even with a good song. Reminds me of an overplayed cassette transfer sometimes. Not always, but when too many RTs are used, it can get there. I love them sparingly myself place within the mix. [
No argument there at all. I think that much of that slathering on of RTs is the noob thinking that "more gotta be better" though. I'm thinking back to how many times in the studio, I found it easier to turn in a Piano, Rhodes, Wurly or Organ track by "putting my left hand in my pocket" *grin* Or, when playing in the guitar track, avoiding those huge grand barre chords in favor of little two and three noters that don't get in the way but say only what they need to say. Ill listen when I get the chance and try to give several examples. For demos and home-spun CDs or albums, I find that Rts are a great support. For me I use them to write mostly, but play the tracks live for more serious recordings. Thats just me. Cheers!! It is not just you, my friend, there are a group of us who use BB for sketchouts, writing, arrangement to a certain extent, let the live musicians have both the bb created audio file plus the bb chart to it, easily delivered via the 'net and out of expensive realtime, but then take the project into the studio to record with live musicians. Matt Findley does that same thing also. --Mac haha. Cheers Mac! Thanks for all of the positive support. It is appreciated. True be said, I love the tools and freedoms we have today as songwriters and BIAB is a blessing to me. I use it daily, I support it, recommend it and feel grateful for it. Happy holidays!
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Woodshedding - Learning to Play!
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Sure thing! I just listened to 30 secs of one link in your sig tag 'Don't Sell it" and the artifacts are there instantly starting with fiddle on the left side. I realized the term ' out of phase' is appropriate to describe the sound. Serious comb-filter-esque.
(BTW, the song itself, the arrangement and singing are really great. Good work! They carry the energy well) That is not part of the issue or content of my post. Thanks for doing that! If you get a chance I'd really appreciate your opinion on the guitar on this one. It's one of our few ventures into working with an electric lead. Honey Babe Blues BTW, as Mark Twain said "It's better to keep your mouth shut and appear stupid than open it and remove all doubt" but I'll take a chance. To what, if any, degree can mastering/mixing/mp3 conversion have on these artifacts, i.e, can they be mitigated to any extent? I appreciate your insight, Bud.
Last edited by Janice & Bud; 11/27/13 07:29 AM.
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Woodshedding - Learning to Play!
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...I just listened to 30 secs of one link in your sig tag 'Don't Sell it" and the artifacts are there instantly starting with fiddle on the left side. I realized the term ' out of phase' is appropriate to describe the sound. Serious comb-filter-esque.
Wait a minute. That file is mp3 compressed at the standard 128kbps for webstreaming. Most of these sites won't accept higher. Download the file and take a look at it on a good Realtime analysis software. You will first see the typical 17KHz "brickwall" cutoff point associated with that mp3 compression bitrate. You should also see the noise inherent above that critical 17KHz cutoff point. The original .wav pcm digital file won't have that at all, count on it, I've already subjected RealTracks to the same analysis. --Mac
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