PG Music Home Forums General Discussion Woodshedding - Learning to Play! WHAT IS DIFFERENCE 3/4 AND 6/8 TIME?

Cant find any other List to post this on, so I'll have a Go here -
I have no learned musical knowledge, only what I've picked up along the way and now I'm a bit foxed by a piece I am working on that is in 6/8 time. I always thought that that was a Waltz at double speed (OK, OK, quit laughing! )but it seems to play OK in 4/4.
Question is - what IS the difference? AND - how would I set a timing in BIAB?
K.I.S.S answers please and non of your diminished augmented circle of 8th stuff either - lol!
cheers
Ian

If you are going to find out what it is, you should not avoid correct terminology. The terminology did not just appear out of thin air, it is the result of much study and development over time, and all of it is there for a reason, not to confuse people. If it could be said simpler, it would be,

Let's start with Time Signatures that are subdividable by 2's.

2/4 = Two Beats perBar (upper number) and a Quarter Note (quaver) gets 1 beat. This is called, "Simple Duple" time.

4/4 = Four Beats per Bar, again the lower 4 indicates that a Quarter Note gets one beat. Compound Duple time, also known as Common Time as it is the most commonly found time signature in Western Musics.

3/4 = Now we have 3 Beats per bar, again the Quarter Note gets one beat, Simple Triple time, might also be referred to as Waltz Time.

6/8 - 6 beats per bar, but notice the bottom number, which now indicates that instead of a quarter note getting one beat, an 8th note (semiquaver) gets one beat, note that the semiquaver is exactly one-half the time length of the quaver if the BPM value is the same.

Since the Triple time signatures are usually thought of as, "groups of three" notes, one group of three per bar in 3/4 time, but two successive groups of 3 notes per bar in 6/8 time, a music written as 3/4 but at twice the BPM Tempo would sound exactly the same as a 6/8 written piece at half of that tempo. This is what BiaB does, uses the 3/4 to mimic the 6/8, but when doing that, every two bars of 3/4 actually equals one bar of the 6/8.

Therefore, when counting the 3/4 time in your head, you should be thinking, "one-two-three, one-two-three" etc. but when counting the 6/8, you should be thinking "one-two-three-four-five-six, one-two-three-four-five-six".

A 2/4 bar with two Triplet groups in it, can sound like one bar of 6/8. To get Triplet note resolution in BB, set the Notation Options for "Swing". To get Even in BB, in other words, divisible by 2, set it for Even feel. If you don't use the Notation, not to worry, that's what the two differences in feel are all about inside the Stylepicker, "Ev" or "Sw".

Ev is subdivided by two's per beat, Sw by threes.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Time_signature


Take your time, study it. Sleep on it. Study again. Sleep on it some more. Rinse, Repeat.


--Mac

Thanks Mac
Will do!!
cheers
ian

Thanks Mac. I needed that too!

Thank you sixchannel for asking a question the rest of us were to afraid to ask!

Generally I would say:

3/4 time: You count in 3's, 1 2 3 | 1 2 3 | ....

6/8 time: The are 2 major beats: 1 2 3 4 5 6 | 1 2 3 4 5 6 |...

But if what you ask pertains to jazz interpretation, then stick with Mac's example.

How about someone including links to obvious, classic examples of each (labeled)? And include a 12/8, too? For aural comparisons...

Augmenting what Kevin said in 6/8 time beat #1 is the loudest, beat #4 is accented but not as loud as beat #1 and the others are not as loud as beat #4.

If beats # 1 and #4 are the same volume that the time signature could be either 3/4 or 6/8, at least that is what I have been taught.

Genre does not matter, I teach NOT accenting any of the beats like the ONE every time, simply because that develops a bad habit where the student will start to automatically give more time to the accented beat without even realizing that is happening.

My method of teaching is based on the empirical real life situation of working with people who have developed certain bad habits from being taught to do things in certain ways that may not be the best way to start learning in the long run.

Because it takes 10 times longer to correct a Bad Habit than it does to learn how to do something in a better way in the first place.

Be careful with emphasizing the first beat like that.

Unless you want all of your triple time signatures to sound like old beergarten renditions of Strauss, that is...

(And Duple meters, 2/4. 4/4, etc. also get hammered by that same bad habit. Works maybe when encountering the simple songs, playing by yourself, problems ensue when playing ensemble with live musicians who know how to keep even meter, though.)




--Mac

Hi Mac
am enjoying learning this stuff for real for the first time ever. Now I can get away from Strauss waltzes!!!!!
cheers
ian

12/8 - Unchained Melody, My Way, 6/8 - Many Sousa and American marches, 9/8 - Jesu, Joy of Man's Desiring. Later, Ray

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I use the song "America" to teach 6/8 time.

Each line can be counted [1-2-3, 1-2-3][1-2,1-2,1-2]

The first part is groups of three, second is groups of two. The whole thing - every measure - is 6/8.
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This thread should be pinned so it's always near the top.
Great question sixchannel.

Mac, flatfoot and other responders, thank you for your answers.

Can any of you go into more detail as how those of us that are not music literate might determine if a swing or even style might work better for a song? I understand what you mean about the divisible by two but I'm having trouble relating it to real world use like selecting styles.

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>>>...e not music literate might determine if a swing or even style might work better for a song?....>>>

Here is a way to divide beats into groups of two:

"Gran-Pa-John-ny, Gran-Pa-John-ny, Gran-Pa-John-ny..."
These are called eighth notes in America.

Here is a way to divide beats into groups of three, called triplets:

"Gran-pa-pa Jon-a-than
Gran-pa-pa Jon-a-than
Gran-pa-pa Jon-a-than..."

The first pattern would be called "even" eighth notes. An idea of "swing' can be had from the second pattern. In place of "Gran-pa-pa Jon-a-than," try saying only the first and third syllables:

"Gran * pa Jon * than
Gran * pa Jon * than
Gran * pa Jon * than"

...leave out the second syllable of "Grandpapa" and "Jonathan" to get a "long-short, long-short" pattern.

Now try some of the styles marked EV (even) and some marked SW(Swing) in the style picker. Listen to how the beats are divided into two-part and three-part divisions. Try chanting "Gran-pa-pa Jonathan" in the two ways described here and see what fits.

(Note that my description of "swing," above, is OK for beginners, but not quite perfect. Its a jazz thing.)

6/8 time is considered a "Duple meter" time signature. That means that there a two major beats per measure. If you are counting three main beats per measure, you are probably not in 6/8 time.

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6/8 is a compound meter. It can be duple or triple, or both, as in the video I posted above.

The fact that Wooten almost entirely avoids the metronome beats whether the metronome is doing 1/8 notes at 80 or 1/4 notes at 80 is not lost on me, though getting to the point of just being able to groove that had to take years. Not much to do with 3/4 or 6/8 time sig detection, but how he hears what goes 'in-between' for both of those examples in the first few minutes is really interesting.

He "avoids" nothing, Scott.

What he is doing, is counting for himself at all times, not waiting on the metronome.

When that is done correctly, as he does it, both the player and the metronome are counting for themselves at all times and both will then "hit" at exactly the same time, regardless of the Time Signature.

If you wait until you hear the metronome, you've waited too long and you will play AFTER the metronome. And besides that, it means that you are NOT counting as you play.


--Mac

I believe America by Bernstein is one measure of 6/8 time followed by a measure of 3/4.

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Look closely at the bass clef. How would you count what the left hand is doing?
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OK, perhaps the wrong choice of word on my part. I'm talking about the groove he is playing. To my ear, he is absolutely locked in, but playing in between the beeps/beats for the most part.

He is using the metronome to get the time locked in unless he has "perfect BPM" which he indeed may have, but of course he is not listening for the beep each and every time.

I did not mean to imply that he is listening for each beat and then saying to himself "ok, beep over now play".

When I listen to what he is playing I hear mostly stuff like this, with this as the legend:
B = beep or beat from the metronome,
V = victor's note onset.

B V B V B B V B/V etc.

I don't hear much of B/V, B/V, B/V where he's playing on top of the beat. Seems like he's playing in between, as part of the establishment of the funky groove. Not listening for the beats and then playing - which of course human reaction time will put too far behind the needed note onset.

That's all I meant by 'avoiding'. What would have been a better choice of word instead of avoid? I can see where avoid could be interpreted as 'first detect, then avoid'. Not what I'm talking about at all.

Simply, that for a funky groove like the first example, playing off of the beat (those could be musically confounding terms as well) is crucial to bring it. I think it's instructive how it does get a little more complicated to keep the same groove going when it's 1/4 notes on the beeps at 80 BPM instead of the 1/8 notes at 80.

I am going to re-visit this video with my daughter Emma, to whom I'm just starting to teach the bass fretboard, as a great practice tool.

-Scott

I can't find any source that says that 6/8 is anything but a duple meter. If you find one, let me know. Everything I have read about America is that it is a measure of 6/8 time followed by a measure of 3/4 time.

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Your post is slightly inaccurate. It says that the meter does not change and this is false. In this song the meter changes from duple to triple. The time signature is 6/8 and this is the thing in this song's rhythm that does not change.

It may be that what needs to be is the distinction between "meter" and "time signature." In the example posted here, both yours and mine, there is ONE time signature and TWO alternating meters in alternating measures.

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Here is a guy having fun with alternating duple and triple meters in the African tradition.

I just grabbed one that used simpler terminology. The meter does change from duple to triple which means the time signature alternates between 6/8 and 3/4. I guess we are just going to have to disagree on this one. America by Bernstein

The person you are disagreeing with is Leonard Bernstein. The sheet music I posted was published by him, not me.

Kemmrich is correct that the 6 = Simple Duple time.

9 and above would be Compound Duple.


My bad, for typing it above in my explanation.


The TRIO section of many Sousa Marches exhibits the use of 6/8 as Simple Duple march time, where each of the two march "steps" is divisible by three's.


--Mac

The Bernsteing "America" example uses BOTH because of the Time Signature changes.

One bar of each in succession.


Really not a good example for teaching somebody the basics, eh?


Just serves to further confuse IMO.

The fellow asking about the basics of Primary Colors just wants ROY G BIV, not folks going off on how many of the various hues may be recognizable by the human eye or possibly worse yet, how many YOU can see as versus others... KISS



--Mac

Just to be clear, that sheet music was not written by Leonard Bernstein (probably). It is a piano/vocal transcription from the original score (probably). The main giveaway is that the song tempo is not marked as "Tempo di Huapango". Although I can't say this is the original, but if you scroll down to score page 175 (or 181 in the go to page box) here, you will see that marking. I didn't mean for this discussion to go so far sideways -- but that happens sometimes.

The only time I've run into this being an 'issue' is setting metronome BPM coupled with note value in my DAW software / using pre-recorded drum loops / and setting the correct numerator/denominator.

With my current DAW, I have to be within 20% or so of the correct BPM in order for the time stretching/compression to sound decent - might even be less than that, I've never done the math.

I will tap tempo in either correctly or 100% off, which one finds out pretty danged quick!

-Scott

It's been a busy year. I haven't posted for months and was only going to wish everyone a Merry Christmas but this thread caught my attention. I thought I might try to add some clarity the discussion.

Before I start what might be turn into a short novel,the short and simple answer to the original question "what is the difference between 3/4 and 6/8 time?"...is [b]3/4 time means there are 3 beats to the bar and 6/8 time means there are 2 beats to the bar. That's it!

So to my "novel"

Mac is right...you need to know the correct terminology and most importantly how the notes are grouped, to be able to identify the time signature of a bar of music or a whole piece.

You need to know that in Simple Time, the beats are plain,undotted beats be it crotchets(quarter notes),
minims(half notes) or whatever and can be subdivided into groups of 2

In Compound Times, the beats are dotted beats, dotted crotchet(dotted quarter notes), dotted quavers(dotted eighth notes), etc and can be subdivided into groups of 3

The correct terminology for Simple Times:

2/4 time is called Simple Duple Time, there are 2 crotchet(quarter note) beats to the bar.

3/4 time is called Simple Triple Time, there are 3 crotchet(quarter note) beats to the bar.

4/4 time is called Simple Quadruple Time, there are 4 crotchet(quarter note) beats to the bar.

C stands for 4/4 time as well and is also called Simple Quadruple Time.

We are all taught that the top number tells us how many beats are in the bar and the bottom number tells us what type of note gets 1 count. This is fine for Simple Time but not for Compound Times.

When I first introduce a piece in 6/8 time to a student and ask them what time do they think it is in, I know they are going to say "6 quaver (eighth note) beats to a bar". They are always puzzled when I say no...there are 2 dotted crotchet(quarter note) beats to a bar.

I go on to explain that this is a Compound Time, that there are 6 pulses in the bar, (thus the 6 on the top) but the 6 pulses are grouped into 2 dotted beats, each dotted beat having 3 pulses each.

I often use the analogy of 2 paddocks with 3 cows in each paddock, then tap the Duple rhythm counting 123 while left hand taps once only, and 456 while the right taps only only. The emphasis must be that while there are 6 pulses there are only 2 beats.
(Sometimes it's easier for younger students to count 123,123 or 1&u, 2&u or even something like but-ter-fly, but-ter-fly. Anything to make sure there are only 2 beats)


The correct terminology for Compound Times:

6/8 is called Compound Duple Time, there are 2 dotted crotchet(quarter note) beats to the bar.

9/8 is called Compound Triple Time, there are 3 dotted crotchet(quarter note) beats to a bar.

12/8 time is called Compound Quadruple Time, there are 4 dotted crotchet(quarter note) beats to a bar.


Often theory exams have bars of notes with no Time Signatures and students are asked to add the correct time signatures. The students need to know how the notes are grouped to be able to work out the time.

The "America" example discussed here shows clearly 2 different groupings of the quavers(eighth note). The 5th bar in the right hand, the quavers(eighth notes) are grouped into 2 lots of 3. This can only be 6/8 time. The next bar in the Left hand, the quavers(eighth notes) are grouped into 3 lots of 2 quavers(eighth note). This can only be 3/4 time. Nothing else!

The 6/8 time signature at the beginning of the example posted just means that overall the main time of the piece is 6/8.
The 3/4 bars add the energy and rhythmic variety to the piece. (Skillful writing!)

Whew! I think that's it. I can take of my "school marm" hat now. LOL

Oh, and Merry Christmas everyone!

Not trying to hijack the thread but all this talk about 6/8 reminds me we still don't have a good 6/8 in BIAB for tunes like I Still Have The Blues. On my wishlist for 2015 for sure.

Merry Christmas all,

Try,

RealTrack:

=HDRKWLZ.STY


Really good MIDI synth:

CC_NICKL.STY

=HDRKWLZ.STY

CC_GOO.STY


--Mac

Thanks sixchannel for asking this question!

There have been far more answers than I would have ever thought possible. One things for sure, time signature and meter are more complicated than they appear on the surface.

All the responses have been great to read; I'm learning so much.

What a great informative post thankyou for taking the time to explain this