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What are the most common functions of diminished, augmented, and m7b5 chords ? #240605 02/19/14 05:53 AM Woodshedding - Learning to Play!
Joined: Feb 2006 Posts: 1,129 NYC J Joe V OP Expert
OP Joe V Expert J Joined: Feb 2006 Posts: 1,129 NYC	Hi all, Many books will teach you a 'silly' amount of fingerings for all the different chords, but far fewer - maybe none that I have run across, that take a chord quality and explain the function of that chord in a variety of song contexts. Also, these books will build diatonic structures in a 'silly' amount of tonalities, and again - have very few examples regarding function. Can you guys help me get started understanding the most common functions of the above qualities, maybe reference some good song examples, and some exercises to help me incorporate these songs into compositions and cool substitutes ? Again - I have a LOT of books - but none do justice, IMHO, to this question. Maybe I just have the wrong books for this aspect of music. Last edited by Joe V; 02/19/14 05:55 AM.

Re: What are the most common functions of diminished, augmented, and m7b5 chords ? Joe V #240609 02/19/14 06:05 AM Woodshedding - Learning to Play!
Joined: May 2000 Posts: 38,502 Chesapeake, Virginia USA M Mac Veteran
Mac Veteran M Joined: May 2000 Posts: 38,502 Chesapeake, Virginia USA	Can you properly harmonize a Major scale in any key on yer guitar? Example: Play an E Major scale in one octave using the correct chord for each step. M-m-m-M-M-m-dim7-M If not, then it is not time to be concerned with these chords yet, for they will not make much harmonic sense. The function of those three chords is to provide the scale-generated harmony for the notes in between the notes of the given scale. Look up "scale harmonization" for starters. --Mac PGmusic FAQs, Tutorials and Updates! click here You must be Audiominds. www.audiominds.com

Re: What are the most common functions of diminished, augmented, and m7b5 chords ? Joe V #240613 02/19/14 06:11 AM Woodshedding - Learning to Play!
Joined: Feb 2006 Posts: 1,129 NYC J Joe V OP Expert
OP Joe V Expert J Joined: Feb 2006 Posts: 1,129 NYC	Mac - I've got the part you described, I just can't seem to make the jump to using that stuff in songs and compositions. Maybe I'm more concrete - I'm looking for some more song examples and particular progressions that use them. Thanks again for all your support and help over the years.

Re: What are the most common functions of diminished, augmented, and m7b5 chords ? Joe V #240617 02/19/14 06:26 AM Woodshedding - Learning to Play!
Joined: May 2000 Posts: 38,502 Chesapeake, Virginia USA M Mac Veteran
Mac Veteran M Joined: May 2000 Posts: 38,502 Chesapeake, Virginia USA	Examples of usage in songs, start investigating the chord changes to the great old standards, ballads, jazz standards. Realbook, etc. Tin Pan Alley songs forward. --Mac PGmusic FAQs, Tutorials and Updates! click here You must be Audiominds. www.audiominds.com

Re: What are the most common functions of diminished, augmented, and m7b5 chords ? Joe V #240645 02/19/14 08:34 AM Woodshedding - Learning to Play!
Joined: Apr 2009 Posts: 9,874 Middlesex, NC Guitarhacker Veteran
Guitarhacker Veteran Joined: Apr 2009 Posts: 9,874 Middlesex, NC	A good understanding of music theory will help you to understand them a bit more. Also study the kinds of music that use them..... Jazz is a really good place to start. I write a lot of country and to be honest, there generally isn't a big need in country for those chords. You can also study this right inside Band in a Box. Use the MELODIST function.....select Jazz and one of it's subcategories and let it generate a number of "songs". Depending on the style it is using, you will find these chords used right there in BB. Study how it is applied. Last edited by Guitarhacker; 02/19/14 08:37 AM. You can find my music at: www.herbhartley.com Add nothing that adds nothing to the music. You can make excuses or you can make progress but not both. The magic you are looking for is in the work you are avoiding.

Re: What are the most common functions of diminished, augmented, and m7b5 chords ? Joe V #240677 02/19/14 12:27 PM Woodshedding - Learning to Play!
Joined: May 2000 Posts: 38,502 Chesapeake, Virginia USA M Mac Veteran
Mac Veteran M Joined: May 2000 Posts: 38,502 Chesapeake, Virginia USA	The Band in a Box Demo songs are another place to study use of chords in progressions, too. The Jukebox can load all the songs in one demo folder and play them, you can stop the jukebox when one loads that looks interesting and have a go at it. --Mac PGmusic FAQs, Tutorials and Updates! click here You must be Audiominds. www.audiominds.com

Re: What are the most common functions of diminished, augmented, and m7b5 chords ? Joe V #240699 02/19/14 02:55 PM Woodshedding - Learning to Play!
Joined: Feb 2006 Posts: 1,129 NYC J Joe V OP Expert
OP Joe V Expert J Joined: Feb 2006 Posts: 1,129 NYC	...and so I begin following all those suggestions. Thanks for the encouragement and reminders.

Re: What are the most common functions of diminished, augmented, and m7b5 chords ? Joe V #240752 02/20/14 05:13 AM Woodshedding - Learning to Play!
Joined: Dec 2002 Posts: 12,017 Wauconda DrDan Veteran
DrDan Veteran Joined: Dec 2002 Posts: 12,017 Wauconda	Love the sound of these diminished chords. they also lay so well on the guitar neck and given that they are symetrical there is lots of cool voicings. Charlie has a good writeup on these: http://charlieaustinjazz.blogspot.com/2012/03/diminished-perspectives.html BIAB – 2025, Reaper (current), i7-12700F Processor, 32GB DDR4-3200MHz RAM, 1TB WD Black NVMe SSD, 2TB WDC Blue SSD, 1TB WD Blue, 2 TB SK NVMe, 6 TB External, Motu Audio Express 6x6

Re: What are the most common functions of diminished, augmented, and m7b5 chords ? Joe V #240753 02/20/14 05:14 AM Woodshedding - Learning to Play!
Joined: Jul 2002 Posts: 3,667 P pghboemike Veteran
pghboemike Veteran P Joined: Jul 2002 Posts: 3,667	tutorial videos featuring Tim Cummiskeylooked like they may be useful for this thread https://www.youtube.com/user/SPGGuitar251/search?query=Tim+Cummiskey Lenovo YOGA 900 Window s 10 Home 64bit 16GB RAM\2018 13” MacBook Air casio wk7500 presonus audiobox i2 usb interface casio wk-7500 biab & realband 2023 everything pk both with Current builds

Re: What are the most common functions of diminished, augmented, and m7b5 chords ? Joe V #240782 02/20/14 12:53 PM Woodshedding - Learning to Play!
Joined: May 2005 Posts: 2,607 Sterling, Va raymb1 Veteran
raymb1 Veteran Joined: May 2005 Posts: 2,607 Sterling, Va	Google II - V - I functions. Lots of info out there. Later, Ray Asus Q500A i7 Win 10 64 bit 8GB ram 750 HD 15.5" touch screen, BIAB 2017, Casio PX 5s, Xw P1, Center Point Stereo SS V3 and EWI 4000s.

Re: What are the most common functions of diminished, augmented, and m7b5 chords ? Joe V #241748 02/27/14 10:45 AM Woodshedding - Learning to Play!
Joined: Jul 2007 Posts: 1,769 Bynar ZeroZero Expert
ZeroZero Expert Joined: Jul 2007 Posts: 1,769 Bynar	To try to answer the question, applies to your other post too Joe. Diminished chords bring tension. Music is about tension and release. Release tends to be strong beat major and minor chords. In between there is space for tension, diminished chords can fit in here, preceding the resolving chord, often preceding by a diminished a half stelp below The augmented fifth chord, is basically a dom 7th chord with an extra bit of color, a common place for one of these is the last chord of a twelve bar blues. Try a 12 bar with a 7th chord built on the fifth of the key, then an aug 7th, you will hear a bit of extra spice and yearning to get to the root chord on bar 1 of the second chorus. Basically all these none standard chords bring tension, they heighten the tension. Win 11 64, Asus Rog Strix z390 mobo, 64 gig RAM, 8700k

Re: What are the most common functions of diminished, augmented, and m7b5 chords ? Joe V #241749 02/27/14 10:49 AM Woodshedding - Learning to Play!
Joined: Jul 2007 Posts: 1,769 Bynar ZeroZero Expert
ZeroZero Expert Joined: Jul 2007 Posts: 1,769 Bynar	the minor 7 flat five is a Locrian chord, in C its all white nbotes based on the 7th - B. I think of this as a standard, unchanged modal chord. If you work it out this chord is strongly related to the dominant 7th as it shares three notes with it. Last edited by ZeroZero; 02/27/14 10:50 AM. Win 11 64, Asus Rog Strix z390 mobo, 64 gig RAM, 8700k

Re: What are the most common functions of diminished, augmented, and m7b5 chords ? Joe V #243154 03/08/14 10:52 AM Woodshedding - Learning to Play!
Joined: Dec 2002 Posts: 12,017 Wauconda DrDan Veteran
DrDan Veteran Joined: Dec 2002 Posts: 12,017 Wauconda	Maybe you need to play and hear these chords in action. Wrap your fingers around this little ditty: BIAB – 2025, Reaper (current), i7-12700F Processor, 32GB DDR4-3200MHz RAM, 1TB WD Black NVMe SSD, 2TB WDC Blue SSD, 1TB WD Blue, 2 TB SK NVMe, 6 TB External, Motu Audio Express 6x6

Re: What are the most common functions of diminished, augmented, and m7b5 chords ? Joe V #243183 03/08/14 05:04 PM Woodshedding - Learning to Play!
Joined: May 2000 Posts: 38,502 Chesapeake, Virginia USA M Mac Veteran
Mac Veteran M Joined: May 2000 Posts: 38,502 Chesapeake, Virginia USA	Note stack for the 5th chord Am7b5 is NOT correct, actually there are quite a few discrepancies in that example, such as that A# in the Gm7, etc. The chord diagrams look to be okay, but the notes given are not to be trusted. Charted by Kent Reed? PGmusic FAQs, Tutorials and Updates! click here You must be Audiominds. www.audiominds.com

Re: What are the most common functions of diminished, augmented, and m7b5 chords ? Joe V #243214 03/09/14 05:36 AM Woodshedding - Learning to Play!
Joined: Dec 2002 Posts: 12,017 Wauconda DrDan Veteran
DrDan Veteran Joined: Dec 2002 Posts: 12,017 Wauconda	The source of this score goes back a long way (~20 yrs?). I suspect it may have originated in some form in a Guitar Player Magazine. I think I added the chord charts back in the day likely based on how I played the piece more then how it is actually notated. I did some hunting this morning and was able to confirm that I did add the chords based on my playing but did not change the corresponding notation. So in fact there are two versions above, one for the guitar player and one for keyboard (no extra charge). I just redid it after all these years and notated the way I play it on guitar. I'm always open to corrections? So now that you have seen it and played it, lets drop in BIAB so you can hear it and understand why jazz cats love these changes. 12 Bar Minor Blues - augmented and diminished chords - BIAB 2014 Last edited by jazzmandan; 03/09/14 09:33 AM. BIAB – 2025, Reaper (current), i7-12700F Processor, 32GB DDR4-3200MHz RAM, 1TB WD Black NVMe SSD, 2TB WDC Blue SSD, 1TB WD Blue, 2 TB SK NVMe, 6 TB External, Motu Audio Express 6x6

Re: What are the most common functions of diminished, augmented, and m7b5 chords ? Joe V #243247 03/09/14 09:35 AM Woodshedding - Learning to Play!
Joined: May 2000 Posts: 38,502 Chesapeake, Virginia USA M Mac Veteran
Mac Veteran M Joined: May 2000 Posts: 38,502 Chesapeake, Virginia USA	You're first example shows something that happens when someone makes the error in thinking that since Sharps and Flats share "the same note" that there is no reason to deal with both. Convention, however, is there because the music notation rules are based on more than 300 years of input and development. When we first encounter notation, it is a rather common thing to think that the conventions used are either superfluous or otherwise not as easy to deal with, I can recall thinking the same sort of thing about certain notation functions at one time. As with many subjects, the more exposure and experience gathered is important, those conventions and such then start to make much more sense as to the rhyme and reason behind them. Then we start to realize the wisdom in those rules of notation and such. We figure out why, for example, a Gm7 chord notation will always be done with a Bb and not an A# in it. Or a b5 chord that uses a SHARP in the notation. Sure, it is the same fret on the same string, but when I view a Sharp - I'm automatically thinking "Augmented 4th" which immediately makes me think, "Classical Music" when we are dealing with a Jszz chart, where the thinking should be "Flat 5, man"... And others will be able to read our charts much faster and easier, because the chart will contain the certain conventions that everyone is accustomed to using. Just keep dealing with the thing, as you show well that you are here, for that is what we as journeymen musicians should always be doing from cradle to grave. I think I've always been able to hear and play things before being able to properly notate same. It had to change the day long ago when I took on the task of Copyist for a bigband, moving from there to the beginnings of trying my hand at my own Arrangements. Other musicians can be very cruel when one darn little thing on the chart ain't right. Straightahead, --Mac PGmusic FAQs, Tutorials and Updates! click here You must be Audiominds. www.audiominds.com

Re: What are the most common functions of diminished, augmented, and m7b5 chords ? Joe V #243706 03/12/14 12:24 PM Woodshedding - Learning to Play!
Joined: Jul 2007 Posts: 1,769 Bynar ZeroZero Expert
ZeroZero Expert Joined: Jul 2007 Posts: 1,769 Bynar	On the point of the history of notation Mac, I can see where you are coming from and all the points you raised are true, however my view (only mine) is that the notation system is cumbersome. English is similar because it has grown from a hotch potch of needs and conditions and influences, it has so many anomolies and illogicalities, grammar is needlessly complex. Same with music notation, it was first developed before Fux in the days of Church Modes as a few scratchings on the sides of manuscripts before the concept of the major scale was properly developed (as we would see this) when some intervals were associated with the devil and when there was no equal temprement instruments - notation was mainly for choirs and plain (type) song. It was also developed to be facilitated by the scratching of the quill pen - lines squiggles and blotches As time proceeded notation was hacked and used to suit various instruments and settings - in a hotch potch fashion. Unfortunately we were still left with needlessly terrifying terms such as "Mixolydian" "Appogiatura", sforzando and many more " (OK I can't spell them). If basic things were put more simply we would all learn doppio movimento to put it in notation terms. I have deep sympathy for anyone trying to learn notation, many are put of by its needless obscurities. There is a lot of damage done by the classical route education (IMO) I am on my soap box....I admit Zero Last edited by ZeroZero; 03/12/14 12:31 PM. Win 11 64, Asus Rog Strix z390 mobo, 64 gig RAM, 8700k

Re: What are the most common functions of diminished, augmented, and m7b5 chords ? Joe V #243719 03/12/14 01:02 PM Woodshedding - Learning to Play!
Joined: May 2000 Posts: 38,502 Chesapeake, Virginia USA M Mac Veteran
Mac Veteran M Joined: May 2000 Posts: 38,502 Chesapeake, Virginia USA	The more one actually works with it, and that means sight reading rehearsals as well as home practice, using notation in actual scoring work, etc. - the more one is likely to find out the wisdom involved in how notation is done today. Notation and language are two manmade things that actually do evolve over time, solving problems. Over the years I've seen several different attempts to create a new music notation system that was supposed to be simplified or somehow "better" and none of them were, all were rather abysmal because they left out some important factors here and there. Anyway, it is what it is, those who do not have a daily need to use music notation will likely always see that differently. --Mac PGmusic FAQs, Tutorials and Updates! click here You must be Audiominds. www.audiominds.com

Re: What are the most common functions of diminished, augmented, and m7b5 chords ? Joe V #243913 03/13/14 03:27 PM Woodshedding - Learning to Play!
Joined: Feb 2006 Posts: 1,129 NYC J Joe V OP Expert
OP Joe V Expert J Joined: Feb 2006 Posts: 1,129 NYC	Really great examples and discussion - thanks for sharing, it's really helping me out. I'm following all the suggestions, and Mac - I confess - I can NOT fluently harmonize the scales in any reasonable musical tempo - still working on that : )

Re: What are the most common functions of diminished, augmented, and m7b5 chords ? Joe V #244793 03/20/14 09:14 AM Woodshedding - Learning to Play!
Joined: Jan 2013 Posts: 49 J Joey the Flute Guy Enthusiast
Joey the Flute Guy Enthusiast J Joined: Jan 2013 Posts: 49	Mac has a good point in suggesting to Harmonize a major scale.(I didn't know it was called Harmonizing a scale) Last edited by Joey the Flute Guy; 03/22/14 09:05 PM.

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