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Digital Angel: Thanks and yes, country these days isn't the country I grew up listening to and playing when I was playing music for a living. It is morphing and is incorporating rap, and rock into the songs we hear on the radio these days.

Pat: There was a time when I first got BB/RB that I was using it and neglecting to play the guitar parts and other things that I had the ability to play. You gotta admit, it certainly does a fine job with acoustic and electric. And Brent Mason is certainly a few steps ahead of my meager skills on the fretboard. But I decided that I would start using my skills where I can and when I can. Not saying that you won't hear BM on some tunes but I really do like playing the guitar and so I shall.

Don: feel free to go back as many times as you wish. Listening to music as it is produced in the commercial world, many, many times, if you listen closely, the "less is more" theme will pop right out at you.

Josie: Yes indeed, this was likely one of those that I wrote for the simple joy of writing something I like. The problem is, too often, that's how most of them end up..... just once, I'd like to write something that the folks in N-town absolutely flip out over and so does the A&R dept for some big artist who's looking for one more tune to fill the 12 slots on their new mega-big CD project..... just once.... that's all I really want... ;-)

Alyn: I had been thinking about using that method to end a song. I just needed the "right song" to use it. This one worked. As far as "modern country"...yeah, apparently, from the feedback I get out of N-town, I don't know what it is either.

Thanks to all of you for listening and commenting.

Herb,

There certainly have been some interesting asides in this thread.

You did a fine job on this production. Your best that I've heard. Clean and airy. Not so overburdened by fancy licks in every hole. Very listenable.

The mix is nicely balanced. The piano is especially nice in this. The steel is tasteful. Your acoustic lead is very nicely done - it has heart. Sounds very much like a lead that Willie would do (on nylon, of course). The vocal sits in the mix well, too.

Keep writing.

floyd

Hey Floyd, thanks for chiming in and having a listen.

I too was totally blown away by the piano parts and fills I was hearing in the track as I listened.

As another aside: .... the acoustic is a Taylor 314 mic'd with a Rode NT2-A. I use some pretty squeaky strings, bronze rounds. That solo was filled with string squeaks before I edited it. I think I did a fairly good job on removing them without leaving artifacts behind. The editing was simple. I zoomed in and isolated the squeak, generally fairly easy to do, and simple muted it or in a few cases, applied gain reduction to it to lower it's peaks. If you listen carefully, with cans or a really nice studio rig, you can probably pick out where a few of them are still showing through a bit.

BTW: that same editing technique works beautifully on clicks and pops too which tend to be shorter in duration than a string squeak. Use the mute surgically and you won't hear that silence even in a held note. That's one of the benefits of working in a DAW like Sonar when it comes to audio editing.

Thanks for the kind words. And yes, I'm almost always writing something or another at a given point in time.

Me too Herb and Guenter!

Thanks Josie C.....

I appreciate you listening.

Hi Herb
Have just had time to go back and read all the comments in detail. I just wanted to relate an experience I had when I when to go see a local publisher. He told me my songs were nice but that I must write soul (yeah right!) or rock (mmm!!!) or rap (not!!). I spent an unhappy couple of weeks trying this out but have since decided to write about the type of stuff I am passionate about in the style I like to listen to. Your stuff is great. I do hope some big shot in N.ville can see that!

Hi Herb.
Like Josie, I too have gone back and read all the current comments in detail and also had another listen or two of the song itself. Of course, my comments stand out. It seems that what may be constructive notes to myself has not related back to you, the author of the song, in the same manner. I'm sure if the conversation took place over a cup of coffee in a Huddle House somewhere, it would have come across in a more amicable way. I do not have the writing skills to convey inflections of words the same as when they are spoken.

Let me restate to you this is a good song as written. You are talented and write, arrange and perform broadcast quality material. This song should not be revised or changed.

I took your statement saying this is a 'throwaway' song to mean you understand and accept that regardless of the quality of the lyrics, the musical arrangement of vocals and instruments, and the quality of your performance, this particular song would not be considered to be contemporary country enough to what is on the radio today. To me, that means it is a stylistic decision by a producer rather than having anything to do with the quality of your song. My comments were not meant to say you wrote this song wrong or needed to re-write the song. For me, my notes were guidance to help me that day I attempt to write a current, contemporary, country song. For you, sharing my notes were to give you another person's perspective for your next song or the next one after that. I inferred from your comments that you have a personal goal to one day have a song picked up, professionally recorded, performed by a name artist and released for broadcast.

I had some minor success with some of my songs being on the radio 40+ years ago and there is nothing like the feeling you get. It is much more of an adrenaline rush than any stage performance I ever had. Most stage performances are long forgotten unless there was some sort of screw up or accident. I clearly recall the first time I heard my song on the radio.

Good luck in reaching your dream. It is achievable and you have the chops to make it come true.

Regards,

Charlie

Ha, ha -- you did a good job bashing your own tune in your description, don't do that! OK, "it's not contemporary enough.... too slow, too old fashioned.. LOL! We don't care about that stuff!

Real nice guitar playing. By the way, someone mentioned the cello -- the cello is really a popular sound in some americana bands nowadays. I had to listen to the song a second time to find that cello, but it wasn't there. I just read up above that you removed it! Good trick to get me to listen again (thank you!). ... and yes, that is a mighty fine ending. Write the songs you want to write -- they are good as is. I enjoyed my listen(s)!

(An aside) Charlie: To me, your comments came off as you intended them, they were respectful and to the point. Just because a song isn't "commercial" in the Nashville country or LA/NY/London pop markets, doesn't mean it is "bad" and I think you made that point clearly. If folks want to write commercial hits or get "cuts", then they had better find local artists now before they make the move to the "record" towns.

Cello.

I enjoyed Charlie's posts. I commend him for going about commercial songwriting in an intelligent manner.
His analysis was detailed and accurate. And I wish him luck and look forward to hearing "how it's going"...
The one point that I think is not necessarily "right" for his plan (assuming the plan is to get some attention in the market),
is "Of top 5-6 recent country hits on the radio now, how many have a cello? NONE."
Just because you don't hear cello currently on Country radio, doesn't mean you should leave it out of YOUR songs.
When Taylor Swift started adding banjo to her stuff, you could have said "That'll never work! No one has used banjo for YEARS!"
Today, you'll hear a banjo in 50% of everything recorded.
And, as Kevin notes, the Americana market IS using cello. And a lot of things filter to Country productions from the Americana market.

Studying what is currently on the radio is a great way to improve your songwriting.
Although the topics of the current crop of (guy) songs has become cliché, the songwriting is not.
Those cliché TOPICS are presented (the song writing) in fairly original ways - a little fresh - said differently than it was the last time...
You have to be able to do that to write at that level. If all you are doing is stringing together a bunch of tired lines
and not stating them with a little bit of fresh, don't expect anyone to pay attention. Your song won't get past 20 seconds before it's turned off.
That would be 3 cliché lines. Click. And... That FIRST line needs to be something interesting. It HAS to grab attention.

Current Country is more a Sound than it is about the lyric (though the lyric does have to be well penned).
It's pop rock with a twang.
It's a flow, a rhythm. There are very few leads. You seldom hear all those licks after every lyric line the way you
did in the 80's and into the 90's. What used to be "the signature lick" is now a "signature rhythm".
Listen for a couple of hours and you'll hear it. It's a driving rhythm that carries most Country songs these days.
In between verses, you'll hear the "signature rhythm" not leads (speaking in general - there are still songs with leads).
There are virtually NO ballads anymore. And like Charlie says they are BIG and BOLD. They soar.

One thing to note... a good idea to learn to write as well as the current crop of songs on the radio.
A bad idea to present them to Nashville. They have moved on.
The songs you hear today on the radio were written at least 6 months ago - and more likely, a year ago.
The Nashville writers are writing something different right now. It might not be WILDLY different than what you
hear on the radio, but something has changed. It "gets around" - what is happening or "coming".
If you present a song to a publisher (or an artist - if you somehow have those connections) that is patterned after the current Blake Sheldon song, even if it is better written, it will be turned off and you will be asked...

"You got anything new?"

In order for an outsider to get noticed in Nashville, they have to present a game changer.
Like Swift's banjo - or, really, like her peppy, self-portrait, personal, teen-age girl writing...
Tom Douglas did it in 1993 with "Little Rock". It was very different than what was "on the radio" at the time.
(Douglas had "done the Nashville thing" earlier and had given it up. But he knew the craft).
He made an impact with something "different" and went on to big success.

Nashville doesn't need you. They don't have time for you.
If you are good enough to write in Nashville, the likelihood is you already live in Nashville. Because it is your passion and you would give up everything for that dream. It would be a HUGE waste of a publisher's time to look outside Nashville for good songs/writers.
Quality "outside" writers are few and far between. Needle in a haystack. They have a pocket full of nice, sharp needles.
They don't need the haystack.
There are 1000 staff writers in Nashville who are writing well-penned, interesting sounding songs on a weekly basis. So multiply that 1000 by 52 (weeks). Or, give those guys a break now and again.
Say half that. 25,000 songs. Good ones. Right there at their finger tips. Think of how many albums are released by the majors in a year.
200? (probably less). 12 songs per CD. 2400 slots? A percentage taken up by the artist writing with Nashville writers (not because those writers "know the right people" - They KNOW how to write hits).
You can do the math.... So, understand... they are not looking for you!

For your song to get noticed, you need to write something that will make their eyes pop out of their heads - within the first 20 seconds of hitting the play button.

It can be done. Stay true to yourself. Get better all the time. Use a cello.

I agree with Floyd's assessment and comments including his thoughts on use of a cello or other instrument. New instruments/sounds become the rage throughout the history of both rock and country. Rockers seem to have more leeway than country for the most part it seems to me. I would suggest that its use be part of the artists/writers overall image of the completed work.

I agree with Floyd that Nashville does not need us. They do have a large pool of writers/songs to draw from but I suggest that is not an entirely inclusive pool. Outsiders do get in.

A producer's familiarity with writers and their style sometimes get them off the short list. The producer knows in outline form what is going to be offered stylistically and lyrically. They are constantly seeking new styles and sounds. Other times, a producers personal stake in an artist/writer gets them included simply for the benefit the producer receives from his portion of the pie.

Producers, staff members, artists and AR rep's do look at Soundcloud, YouTube, Itunes, CD Baby and other independent outlets for breakout songs. Your chance of getting heard is increased if your songs are available on line somewhere. I think the trick here is to be sure you've placed your song in the right genre, have a catchy song title and capture the listener's interest in the first 10-20 seconds of the song. Your song needs to be strong out the gate. I agree with Floyd that what is on the radio now will be slightly different in 6 months to a year, I think you have a better chance of a producer listening to your song longer if he 'hears' a Blake Shelton, Florida Georgia, Zak Brown Band sound than if he hears Charlie Rich, Willie Nelson or Glen Campbell sound. I would also suggest there are a multitude of the 2nd tier record labels and producers trying to emulate the sound on the radio in order to ride the coat tails of a major hit by a major artist.

this is an excellent thread, but its hijacking Herbs song.

I'm going to start a thread on songwriting in the OFF-TOPIC forum... how about if Charlie, Floyd and any others who have made lengthy and informative posts cut and paste them to the other thread? I'd like to see this thread expanded on without having it hijack Herbs song thread.


PS: new thread is named "SONG WRITING... thoughts from our heavy hitters"

Hi Herb ..

What a great song and production! Everything is so crisp and well-balanced. Everything about this is spot-on.

As far as Nashville, I have a couple of very good friends who do studio work and engineering for several of the studios in town. They all say the same thing, that old axiom ... don't do as I do, do as I say! once you've written a couple of hits, you can do whatever you want ... until then, you have to play by the archaic, cookie-cutter rules. So, as several have said, write and play for yourself and enjoy the fruits of your efforts.

We loved our listen! This is a great production anyway you look at it. Tip of the hat for a job very well done!

Al & Di

Thanks.... I've been away to my daughter's graduation from college.

Good to see this thread is taking on a life of it's own.....

Floyd's comments are pretty accurate about what N-town wants these days. And it definitely a long, long shot in the dark to get a cut, let alone a hit if you are not there hanging out with the ones who are making it all happen.

Glad you are all enjoying the song.

I think this may be your best to date, outstanding work; lyrics flow so nicely and the music is perfect; thanks for sharing!

Hi Guitarhacker,

We like the song, it's got a nice country feel.
Guitars are very well played.

Regards,
R & AM

As several others have observed I think this is the best song that you have posted. The lyric, vocals, guitar, arrangement and mix all come together nicely in a tidy and tight package.

Our best friend went to N'ville to seek his fortune. He "made it" as a studio musician. Played on a Garth project along with many other luminaries and he was nominated for Grammy. The stories I heard from him about how ruthless and cloistered the business was were astounding. Glad my 45 years in music has been just for grins.

Al-David... thanks for listening and yeah, Nashville is a crazy town. You're a nobody until you get a hit, then you're suddenly in demand, and if you don't have another hit in a timely manner, you're back to nobody status pretty quick.
A guy I know, Curtis Wright, who played in another local band around here back in the day, played guitar well and had a great country singer voice, wrote a few big hits and scored a #1 on one or two of them. (Milsap's Woman in Love, Shenandoah's Next to you, next to me) He found that it was hard to get back in the door as a writer, that had been open just a year back, tried to get a solo career going, and finally grew tired of the bs and politics and came back home to NC and started driving a truck. Gold records on the wall and drives a truck for a living. I think he does some acoustic gigs at small coffee shop type venues now. At one time he was backing the biggest stars in N-town and also fronted one of the hottest bands on the radio (Shenandoah) for a time. I guess it's not all it's cracked up to be.

PGF..... thanks for the compliment. I don't know if I personally think this is my best song ever, but I always try to write "the next one" better than the last.... I'm glad you think so, and if you say so, .... who am I to disagree. ;-)

R & AM..... you folks are new here.... so first things first....welcome to the forum. Now, thanks for listening. I'll be looking forward to hearing your music as well.

Janice & Bud, ...thanks for jumping in and commenting. Ahhhh... what possibly could have been with this song..... alas, we shall never know. So, thank you for listening and your kind words on the song.

As far as hijacking the thread..... as long as someone posts or goes in a sidebar, kinda relative to the topic at hand, direction, I have no real problems with the discussion. I see it was moved to another thread out of respect..... thanks, for that, but it really wasn't necessary. Although, over there now, we can go in any direction.

I think you have reached perfection. Music and lyrics fit perfectly. Guitar beautiful. Mix perfect (instruments volumen, effects, etc.)
What can I say about your voice, I'm really impressed.
Unfortunately I'm not so gifted for singing so I'm trying to find a vocal processor to help me. Can you recommend me any? do you use reverb or echo or...?

Thank you in advance

Nice one, Herb.

Basically, what's not to like?

Clean mix, good balance, nice instrument choice and some lovely guitar phrasing.

Particularly liked the vocal performance and harmony.

Altogether, very professional.

ROG.

FJ: thank you.


ROG: thank you for listening. I'm glad you like this tune.



The vox, quite simple actually. I don't use anything that's not needed. The vocals are recorded with a Rode NT-2A with a pop filter and I sing close in to the filter. About 1" between the filter and the mic. The vox are recorded dry and there is nothing in the channel FX bin. The vox all go to a vocal buss where I have the Cakewalk Studioverb2 running a dark plate with about 15% wet or so. I also have a custom instance of Ozone 4 set up for my vox.

It goes to the master buss with a custom O4 setup and another SV2 dark plate set low as well. I do record doubled tracks and harmonies so there are 5 tracks for vox total in the mix. To go into the details of the settings in either of the O4 instances would take too much time. And.... give away trade secrets. ;-)

Yeah, actually, no trade secrets just a lot of time trying to figure out what works and save those things as presets.