PG Music Home Forums General Discussion Woodshedding - Learning to Play! Question about minor II V I's

It puzzles me that most people and most songs that are in 'minor keys' would use the 'natural minor' which has a flat 6th tone, but when a 2/5/1/ in minor is written in jazz it has a major sixth in the one chord. I don't see why this should be....

Wondering....

Zero3,

That question is a little above my music theory skill level, but since no one else is jumping in to take a stab at it, here goes …

I don’t think the 1 chord should have a major 6th in it. It should be mM7th chord. I think that chord spelling would be 1-3b-5-7, (not flatted 7th.) Since that chord doesn't include a 6th of any color, a major 6th seems improper. The scale should include a 6b.

That’s because when harmonizing a diatonic minor chord progression, you don’t use the natural minor scale, aka Aeolian mode. You use the harmonic minor scale which has a raised 7th note.

I wish I was knowledgeable enough to elaborate more, but here is an article that may shed more light on it. I could be totally off base on this, but at least I offered you a theory!


Exploring the Theory Behind Minor 2-5-1 Progressions

http://www.jazzguitartips.com/jazz-guitar-chords/theory-minor-2-5-1-progressions/

Just so I understand the question - by 2/5/1 in minor, your example in Cm would be:

Dm / Gm / Cm6

Is that correct?

Note that Cm6 (C Eb G A) is also the spelling for Adim7, and it's not unusual for the "wrong" chord spelling to be found in some arrangements.

Edit: MarioD corrected me - it's an Am(b7), not Adim7.

But that's just a guess...

I believe that an Adim7 is A C Eb Gb, also written A C Eb F#.

Sorry, I misspoke. I always get thrown on the difference between a diminished and a half diminished chord.

As you noted, a Adim7 would have continued the pattern of minor thirds of the diminished (A, C, Eb) by adding the next minor third, which is the Gb/F#. So the term "diminished" in the chord name refers not only to the 3rd and 5th, but the 7th as well.

I should have said that the Cm6 also doubles as a Am7(b5) (half-diminished).

Thanks for the correction!

Slightly away from the original question, but looking at the minor 251 in jazz...

From my studies;

The 'standard' minor 251 progression in C in Jazz is:

D half diminished (D, F, Ab, C)

G Alt ( G B D# F)

C-6 (C Eb A)

I am currently practicing this sequence using BIAB. I typed in minor 251 into the song search and this is the sequence used.

The first chord is half diminished, rather than diminished. Talking in C the seventh note of a diminished scale would be A (usually thought of as a 6th of a major) which is confusin, a diminished 7th chord is therefore C Eb Gb A.

A Half diminished C chord starts of like a 'real diminished' C Eb and Gb, but then it jumps to a Bb. This makes it more compatible with the dominant sound, it does add two tension tones but it sounds the dominant or flat seventh.

The special thing about this chord is it appears as a mode of the major scale. Its the chord built in thirds from the (maj) seventh - the locrian chord so to speak. It shares three tones with the myxolydian too, so its an easy sub for that.

I hope this is all correct. Do people get the original question? If its true that the natural minor (built on sixth mode of major) is the minor used to establish the key of a song, why does the Jazz 251 feature a major sixth rather than a flat 6th as in the natural minor?

I suppose the only answer is it must be a convention.


This minor thinking all gets murky. I am realising that both in classical and Jazz a natural 3rd is used on the fifth mode of the 'natural' minor key. This is to improve the voice leading by introducing a leading tone or major seventh of the key (third of the chord). This gives better tension to be released in a V I.

It seems to me that the distinctions between 'natural minor' and melodic and harmonic minor scales are all about this note substitution - the leading tone (of the key, the major third of the chord) yearning to resolve to the octave, replacing the flat 7 in the 'correct' spelling of the cadence minor 5 1.

I just spent three months playing major 25's so as to get any tone into the cadence in a meaningful way. I now want to do this with the minor 251 - jazz style. Its a much more murk thing, it seems people have contradictory takes on things...


thanks for the input folks, hope its of interest to others..in an esoteric geeky kind of way...


Z

Bob just another thankyou for the link. It it's helping, but it still feels like 'anything goes' above the fifth in minor

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>>>..The 'standard' minor 251 progression in C in Jazz is:

D half diminished (D, F, Ab, C)...>>>>

Could you give a little context? What are some songs that do this?

"Could I give context..."

Well I am not the man for that job really. I simply opened a couple of books on II VI I's and got this as quoted above. Aebersold was one as I recall. Please see below though...

Although I can blagg these chords quite easily, that's not the same as really understanding and I want to achieve this understanding, make it crystal clear.

I have been doing a lot of work on these changes. I needed to brush up my diminished and altered chords which were a bit stiff, an ideal opportunity seems to be these minor II V I's

It seems to me to boil down to this. The II chord is a half diminished. If the piece were a 'natural' minor key, then this would make the II chord a locrian mode which has a flat fifth.. There are a couple of options that come to hand - the diminished scale; you can take stacks of minor thirds on that, this features a major six tone on the fourth note built from the root.
The second option id to raise the second.

So in terms of which minor scale is implied by the two chord, if you played a 'straight locrian, it has a minor third, dissonant b5, and a b7. These all fit 'natural' minor modes.

If you use the diminished in m3rds starting from root, the this gives a leading tone to the minor key (assumed) and would suggest either a melodic minor, or harmonic minor key signature (at this point).

Moving to the 5 chord, well this is where almost anything goes. It is possible to play a minor seventh chord here, and this would be the strict spelling of the 'diatonic' or 'natural minor mode'. This is a bit limp.
SO, the first step is to slip in the 'illegitimate' natural third. This converts the chord to a standard dominant seventh (myxolydian) chord, but this still sounds a little weak. I believe that adding the raised fifth of the 5 chord e.g. talking in C the D# gives you a note that is enharmonic with the minor third of the key sig, if you did not do this, and left a straight myx G7 chord, then the perfect fifth would sound a D the second note of C minor key sig. This is OK but not so effective as the raised fifth, which as the minor third of the key, sounds the mission critical tone.

with me so far....


So we are looking at the V chord of C minor II V Is. We understand the root, the third (better raised) and the fifth (also better raised). What about the seventh tone.
To me, this note is very disputable. If you were to simply play a (dull) 'diatonic modal line' then this would give a flat 7 to the chord. This is the fourth of the key (some old jazzers called this note the avoid note) whislt this was never completely true, sounding (perfect) fourths of the key signature, does not do too much to establish the key. Don't get me wrong, it can happen of course,. The fourth is happy enough as a passing tone or in other special cases.
The alternative is a raised fourth, sounding a major 7th of the chord, which is also the raised fourth of the diatonic key signature. This is obviously a feature note, like an elbow sticking out.

Seems to me that the 5 chord can be subbed, rewritten in a lot of ways, these being just a few of them..


Then there is the I chord:

Well what exactly is the one chord? Is it a natural minor, a melodic minor, or a harmonic minor?

My observations on this is that everything is fine up to the perfect fifth. But then what?
I have no idea really, perhaps there are no rules, its just dependent on the piece. Some say Jazz favours the melodic minor. What it boils down to is this, taking C for example.

You can take the first five notes until the perfect fifth for granted then you can go:

b6, b7 (AKA natural minor)

Maj 6, major 7th (melodic minor)

major six, flat seventh (dorian)

or..

b6, major 7 (harmonic minor)

then octave.

You can use chromatic passing tones, but we leave this aside for now...

Now it is true that minor keys are more forgiving than major, but that's really a get out of jail free clause. There are possible serious clashes.

The trouble is, if you play a flat 6 where everyone else is playing a major six. that's a Big NONO! Same with playing major and minor sevenths together (though you can use a major seventh as a passing tone between b7 and octave. Basically the wrong kind of seventh is a car crash with the band.

So, what to do?

I am not sure at all. Obviously depends on the context, but how do you prepare the way?

Seems to me that the 5 chord can be subbed, rewritten in a lot of ways..


Still puzzling over this...


Z

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For most of the questions you ask, the answer will vary depending which song we are talking about.

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>>>...Although I can blagg these chords quite easily...>>>

What does 'blagg' mean?

Blagg: For British English, almost cockney it means to bluff it, get through something without really understanding. A blagg is also a robbery in some places. I meant get through a sequence by pure ear

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Wow. Thats a great word. Lots of really good slang in Britain.

I have done a lot of work on this since I posted . I am beginning to get a hold on all this, so I thought I would post my current view.

The subject is VERY confusing, one needs time to really digest what's going on, but here is my run down.

I suggest a relaxed mind...

Minor II V I's do NOT draw from one parent scale like the majors do (in rudimentary interpretation).

Lets consider the minor II V I in C. This is commonly:

D half diminished, G7alt, D minor 6.

I would see that as a bog standard minor II V I.

Looking at the one chord first:

The one can be any minor, it can be dorian, harmonic, melodic, natural...

The only minors that have a natural 6 are the dorian and the melodic. So, if you want to keep the major six in your I chord, then you can play one of these two scales. If the sixth is flattened then you can deal in either harmonic or natural minor, maybe at a push a Phrygian (rare).
If you are still playing a leading tone on the I chord (B in C major) then this kicks you out of thinking natural minor. It also means that Phrygian and Dorian scales don't fit on the seventh tone. If you want to keep the minor third (practically the only thing left signifying a minor sound), then you probably want ot be in I melodic minor. This has the b3 and the major 7th - B in this case.

The II half diminished is a locrian chord. If the minor key were drawn from the natural minor, then this would make sense, as its true that the natural minor key is a minor third down from its relative major and therefore the II of such a key would be back up a whole tone to a semitone below the major root - the Locrian Mode of Eb major (relative minor of C).

With me so far?

The Locrian Mode fits well over this II chord, however many jazzers, modern jazzers use the Locrian Raised 9th.

What is a Locrian Raised 9? well, its also a mode. Its the sixth mode of the Melodic minor! So, what's confusing is its not the 2nd mode of the melodic minor, its the sixth mode! This means that if we were playing a D Locrian raised 9th scale we would be in the key of F melodic minor not C!

My head hurts!

Turining to the V chord of a minor II V I in C, G Alt, although this functions as a dominant, and its also true that the Alt scale is often played over a dominant in a major II V I, the Altered scale is NOT very close to the dominant or myxolydian mode.

Over the V in II V I you can play a G Alt chord, and you can pair this chord with the Altered scale. The Altered scale is Root,b9,#9,Major third, #4,#5, b7.

This is a spelling for the notes, it may not be strictly correct. The Altered scale is a very strange beast. Enharmonically, it has two thirds, both the minor and the major thirds.
If you count the notes and respell the chord it has:

1
b2
b3
b4
b5
b6
b7
1

Its like a major scale with all notes flattened. Obviously, if you took this one further, and flattened the root, you would have B major - a major scale a semitone down.

The 'normal' chord sounded over this scale is NOT the root, third note and fifth note. A bog standard sounding of this chord in G would be G B (the fourth tone), D#(! the sixth tone of the altered scale) and if you wish the flat seventh. If you were to be strict and voice the root the third note and the fifth note, you would instead end up voicing a half diminished chord! Paradoxically, its easy to hear this chord as Root Major third and #fifth. Its enharmonically equivalent to this, but if you count the notes the third is not in the third position and the raised fifth is actually in the sixth position.

My brain hurts more...

The altered scale is also known as the Super locrian mode, as the Pomeroy scale, the Ravel scale, and the diminished whole-tone scale (due to its resemblance to the diminished scale and the whole-tone scale) as well as the dominant whole-tone scale and Locrian flat four.

I quite like the term 'diminished whole tone' as the scale ascends (in C) C Db Eb E, which is like a diminished scale going from half step, to whole step, to half step and then whole tone steps from there on. But we will stick with altered scales.

The Altered scale is a mode of the melodic minor, but which melodic minor?

Maybe you could expect it to be the fifth mode of C melodic minor? No. Its not so easy. The altered scale is the SEVENTH mode of the melodic minor. In other words if you were playing in C melodic minor, you would find this scale starting on B NOT G! If you were playing in G melodic minor, you would find the altered scale at F#. We want the G altered scale, which is found as the seventh mode of Ab!

G is the 7th mode of Ab melodic minor - so if you were to go with this way of thinking, you have to think Ab over the V chord over a minor II V I in C!

So, summarising: We find that a minor II V I, has no real 'parent' key.

To recap:

The II chord can be either a D Locrian or Locrian raised II

The 5 Chord is 'altered' the altered scale is the seventh mode Ab melodic minor not C or G.

The I chord can be any type of minor - natural, melodic, harmonic or Dorian. If it has a Im6 then this boils down choices to Dorian and Melodic.

All this leads me to suspect that one thing is going on. In the five chord the third is raised from what modally would be a Bb to a B. This gives the V chord a dominant function and it ties in with the melodic minor scale type of thinking. Often a harmony is simply about this, increasing the dominant function of the V chord, so as it releases more tension to the I chord. All this talk about melodic and harmonic minor scales can boil down to this - often - in a way at least.

When I think about all this in real time, its too easy to get confused when you improvise, it gets too much for instant recall.

I have been taking this stuff through all 12 keys, and for me,

I have simplified my thinking by:

1] Realising there is no real parent key.

2] Playing a Locrian over the II, sometimes raising its second. If I want a locrian for a given tone I just play the major scale a semitone above, from its seventh tone.

3] Learning the altered scales as a unique scale rather than as the sixth mode of whatever... The way I see these notes are as a 'pretty Arabic pattern' up to the major third then whole tone scale until reaching the octave - whole tone steps between major third and octave. Pretty Arabic pattern equals root, b9,#9 maj 3rd.
Simply playing an altered chord (G B D# F) over the altered chord, I now realise its wrong to think of this as a stack of thirds. There is NOT one note between the Root and the 'major third' (used in the chord), but two. Similarly the #5 is actually a flat 6th if we are talking altered scales.
Filling in the gaps between the #5/b6 and the neighbouring chord tones actually means there are no fill notes between the #5/b6 and the flat 7 (in the altered scale) and from the #5/b6 to the 'major 3rd/flat fourth there is only one tone, the #4/b5. It takes a relaxed and focussed mind to get all this in place.

As for the one chord, this is fairly easy, as long as you are sure which kind of minor you want.
Up until the perfect fifth most common minors are the same (except Phrygian). It's the sixth and seventh that can vary. One has to be very careful, because playing a major sixth where the band is playing minor, or playing a major seventh where the band is playing minor (or vica versa) is to my mind clash city. If you do so, a trick is to disguise it as a passing tone to the correct seventh.

Rarely I suppose one can have a I of a Phrygian, or even a I major, but these are exceptions I guess.

Takes a while to get all this going...

Obviously, there are other options, but this seems a good place to start. Chromatic framgents and passing tones work well too.


Z

What you're describing here is the vertical approach to improvising based on a separate chord scale for each chord in a progression that most 'agrees' or is most consonant with the sound of the chord. Of course you can go beyond that by treating a minor II as a III or a VI chord and a V as resolving just about anywhere. Relating it to the diminished or some other symmetrical scale yields more possibilities. In a sense this is how 'outside' playing works.

In this method a lot comes down to what notes are present in the chord voicing.

One of the reasons shell voicings became popular i think is that apart from staying out of the way of the bass player it allows more latitude in scale choices for the improvisor. So 1 b3 b7 can yield more scale choices than a very prescriptive dorian voicing like 1 b 3 56 b7 9 for example. What you lose in harmonic colour in the accompaniment you gain in freedom of linear movement.

This vertical chord scale approach isn't the only method obviously. In a diatonic situation of quickly moving II Vs leading to a tonic it's sometimes better to improvise on the tonic key center a group of chords are resolving to. Any passing harmonic alterations to each passing II V can be accommodated by changing or adding to the scale you're employing at the key center to which the 2 4 or 8 bar sequence etc resolves. So improvisation becomes a mixed modal or modal interchange scenario on the one root for a number of bars.

Lying in between these options is the method of tonicizing each II V as belonging to its own key centre' the choices determined by the V chord which potentially belongs to any number of key centres.

All this is a way of describing what is called 'Tonal Gravity' which was coined by George Russell in his study 'The Lydian Chromatic Concept Of tonal Organization' which was not only the first and most important attempt to codify chord scale thinking but which also opened up the possibility of using all the intervals and scales residing in the Chromatic scale in an organized way based on degrees of dissonance relative to the tonic. This method is based on manipulating the resolution tendencies of chords to control the amount of tension generated.

The idea being that the Lydian is the true tonic that most agrees with the resolving tendency of II V with Cm7 F7 for example belonging to Eb Lydian. There are a number of graded scales you can use on that tonic to achieve the desired degree of increasing dissonance. Alternatively you can go 'outside' by using scales on tonics lying in a flat or sharp direction round the circle of fifths from Eb. Obviously the further away from Eb your tonic resides round the circle the more dissonance you'll achieve.



HTH

Alan

You sure know your stuff Alan. I have a copy of Russell's work but just dont {aurally) get the idea that the Lydian is the 'true tonic' of a II V. I get that its a stack of fifths - the Lydian and I understand its primordial for this reason.

You're not the only one who doesn't get it! I'm obviously one of the students who has Lydian ears so to speak; I just felt it from the start.
I think what I like about it is the same feeling of not being tethered to chordal roots I was talking about in the other thread; this tendency towards a kind of literalism we all get when we see a chart where Cm7 is automatically putting us in mind of some kind of C minor mode or else Cmin7 arpeggios with extensions or neighbour tones.

When you look at it Cm7 F7 interpreted as a member of Eb Lydian scale or some more dissonant variant like Lydian augmented or Lydian diminished encourages you to use the essential guide tones of the chord. If I play an Eb centred line encompassing the fifth (Bb#) the flat 5 (A) and the root itself, I've basically covered the essential chord tones staying clear of the roots and fifth which is the bass player's territory anyway.

From that standpoint alone I feel it's already a successful approach and I haven't really begun to scratch the surface of it's deeper implications. Basically it's guiding you towards thinking of potentially using all 12 tones within any harmonic situation at any time. Perhaps you have to be Eric Dolphy, Miles, Coltrane or Russell himself to really make it work but listening to their use of it certainly inspires me to give it a try!.

Alan

OK, there must be something very basic I am not getting:

Eb Lydian: Eb,F, G, A, Bb, C, D, Eb

Cm7 ? Which one? There are all the modal minors and there are the harmonic and melodic, at least. Are we talking 'natural minor' maybe dorian?

F7. I presume you mean F7 dominant based on myxolydian? F G A Bb C D Eb F.

'as a member of the Eb Lydian scale'. Doesn't compute here, F dominant 7 chord is a V7 of Bb Ionian.

If you were to build a 'pseudo' II V I on the Lydian chord, the II of the Lydian would be Dominant, and the 'V' would be Ionian. You can sub a Lydian for a I chord of course, but I don't think that's what is being said.

As I say I think I am missing something basic here...

Great thread for me, great posters

Z

In diatonic language F7 forms a perfect cadence with Bb Major. Russell does not dispute this. however when converting scales to chords on a chord by chord basis Russell's theory of 'vertical tonal gravity' his view is that F7 has the Eb(Lydian) as its true tonic and not the Bb Ionian which is considered a modal scale belonging to the Eb Lydian tonic. The same set of tones yes, but a different perspective on what is the tonic.

Bear in mind the Eb tonic here is not conceived as a diatonic 'resolution' but a chromatic tonic, a centre of gravity towards which all possible intervals of the chromatic scale are judged to be in either a close or distant relationship.

In the second part of the book he talks of 'Horizontal Tonal Gravity'. This is where the parent Lydian Chromatic Scale is determined by the resolving tendency of a sequence of chords . In this situation (somewhat confusingly for me!) the parent Lydian Chromatic scale covering the whole Cm7 F7 Bbmaj sequence would be Bb.!! However the 'inside' scale choices would not be b5 Lydian based. They would be either Bb Major, the Bb Blues Scale, or any other scale which contained a perfect 4th (presumably to emphasise in the Eb). Beyond that the note choices would be determined by the wider palette of intervals in the Bb chromatic scale.

There has over the years been considerable debate for and against the idea that the Lydian scale is most consonant with the Major triad not the Ionian; and a lot of science put forward to justify each position. I judge it on what my ears are telling me and it seems that Russell has discovered a tonal order within the chromatic scale from this starting point. Besides it really isn't that different from what was already known; that as you go further round the circle of fifths from the home key in a sharp or flat direction you become tonally more distant from that home key. All that really changes is the Lydian starting point. It's the ability to see all the tonal possibilities of a key centre as a spectrum of 'inside' to outside' note choices where you can consciously control the degree of dissonance that made Russell's theory so invaluable at the time.


Alan

My point was very much at a tangent to that consideration; primarily a general one about the potential 'pitfalls' of thinking about scales built on a root of the written chord symbol (minor or otherwise) and not the higher intervals of the chord.

But dealing with your query goes back to your original question at the top of the thread regarding the confusion in your mind over why the natural sixth should appear in what is otherwise supposed to be a pure minor situation. This would have to be dealt with on a tune by tune examination of the primary key signature I think. There are always the possibility of 'accidentals', modal interchange and 'borrowed' chords from parallel modes in a tune and that can't be discarded as a source of the confusion.

Once you are in an improvising scenario however its obviously a choice you have to make whether to observe the presence of say the 6th as an implied dorian scale/chord, a melodic minor (not usually denoted by just a 6th but usually by a maj7) or as some other scale involving a 6th. You could even choose to ignore it altogether. You wouldn't be 'wrong' but you may be going further 'out' than you might want to.


This is where I find Lydian Chromatic thinking useful. The order of 'in to out' scale choices on a Cm13 for example would be C Dorian, C Melodic Minor, C Lydian Diminished mode VI(C D Eb F#G Ab Bb), C Blues. They would be all within a broadly consonant range. Outside scales in order would be C Harmonic Minor, C w/h diminished, C Phrygian, C locrian, C h/w diminished.
In other words scales involving some or all of the following (b2, the maj3rd next to the m3rd, and the #5) would be considered the most 'outside' choices.

I'm not a great fan as i said of always using the 'correct' mode for every chord and even then not one built on the root as it often leads to improvised lines that merely 'agree' with the harmony and can lead one's attention away from referencing the melody at the top note of the chord.

Hope this helps in some way.

Alan