|
Log in to post
|
Print Thread |
|
|
|
|
|
Woodshedding - Learning to Play!
|
Joined: Jul 2007
Posts: 1,769
Expert
|
OP
Expert
Joined: Jul 2007
Posts: 1,769 |
So, it seems so simple but....
Lets say you want to make a minor 7th chord into a dominant seventh chord, for example, in the key of C, if you wanted to sound an Am7 as A7, but you wanted to write this in Roman numerals
So, A minor is the VI chord, I would think of this as A C E. If I wanted to denote this as a minor 7th chord, then I would write Am7 ACEG. If I then wanted to change the chord to a dominant 7th of the same root I would write A7 A C# E G, .
Now, in Roman numerals. Firstly the triad chord would simply be VI. Secondly if I wanted to describe a minor seventh chord I would write VI7 ( I guess), Now, if I want to write a dominant 7th chord in the sixth position, I would write what? A VI7? But that's both a dominant and a minor seventh chord sharing the same symbol?
Do I have something wrong?
Z
Win 11 64, Asus Rog Strix z390 mobo, 64 gig RAM, 8700k
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Woodshedding - Learning to Play!
|
Joined: Feb 2007
Posts: 1,815
Expert
|
|
Expert
Joined: Feb 2007
Posts: 1,815 |
A minor chord in C would be vi (lower case),
so VI would be A major in the key of C
VI7 would be a A7 chord while
vi7 would be the Am7 chord.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Woodshedding - Learning to Play!
|
Joined: Jul 2007
Posts: 1,769
Expert
|
|
OP
Expert
Joined: Jul 2007
Posts: 1,769 |
cheers, now its only impossible with my handwriting!
Win 11 64, Asus Rog Strix z390 mobo, 64 gig RAM, 8700k
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Woodshedding - Learning to Play!
|
Joined: Jul 2007
Posts: 1,769
Expert
|
|
OP
Expert
Joined: Jul 2007
Posts: 1,769 |
Hi Kemrich another question please.... then of the locrian chord? In its natural form it would be a vii? Rather than a VII? It sounds minory..
Last edited by ZeroZero; 11/29/14 10:34 AM.
Win 11 64, Asus Rog Strix z390 mobo, 64 gig RAM, 8700k
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Woodshedding - Learning to Play!
|
Joined: Feb 2007
Posts: 1,815
Expert
|
|
Expert
Joined: Feb 2007
Posts: 1,815 |
The native chord built on the 7th note of a major scale is a diminished chord -- In C: b, d, f. If you write it just as a vii, then most folks might play it as a minor chord -- b, d, f#. I guess you need to add that little diminished symbol to the vii symbol to ensure that it is played correctly (although some folks would try the vii as a diminished chord first). Here's a link showing the chord symbols for the diatonic major scale/chords: C major, D minor, E minor, F major, G major, A minor, B diminished.  EDIT: Dang, I just noticed that BIAB uses all upper case for its roman numeral display. In C: Cmajor = I, Dminor = IImin, ... , Bdim = VIIdim. That seems so non-standard to me.
Last edited by Kemmrich; 11/29/14 12:11 PM.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Woodshedding - Learning to Play!
|
Joined: Oct 2008
Posts: 19,412
Veteran
|
|
Veteran
Joined: Oct 2008
Posts: 19,412 |
Zero, What Kevin says about lowercase for chords that use a minor 3rd up from the root and uppercase to denote chords that use a major 3rd above the root is an excellent way to distinguish the two. This is something that developed in the last 100 years or so. Prior to that the classical musicians would use VI for the default, diatonic chord based on the 6th note of scale of the key signature. Thus in the key of C major, VI classically means Am. (Even today, there are theorists who prefer not to use lowercase Roman numerals.) When chords outside diatonic harmony were used in the past, there were different techniques to employ. In the case of A7, this would have been considered a secondary dominant 7th and so it would have been written as V7/II (since it is the dominant 7th chord of II (Dm) if note II were temporarily considered the key at that point in time - that is V7/II leads to chord II). Thus the progression I VI7 II7 V7 classically means... C Am7 Dm7 G7 By comparison, the progression I V7/II II7 V7 means... C A7 Dm7 G7 Here's an article about secondary dominants in Wikipedia. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Secondary_dominantRegards, Noel
MY SONGS...Audiophile BIAB 2024
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Woodshedding - Learning to Play!
|
Joined: Jul 2007
Posts: 1,769
Expert
|
|
OP
Expert
Joined: Jul 2007
Posts: 1,769 |
Hello Again  Noel, there seems to be conflicting notations, I notice you don't make use of lower case. Wiki does it seems. Also (talking C) it is notable (not saying it's wrong)that the A7 is regarded as the Dominant of Dm, as the chord build on the fifth would be a Am. I am perfectly cool with this though as I understand that in minor harmony the fifth mode is 'dominatized' . I have a set of jazz ballads that I am presently taking through all 12 keys. In order to do this I am creating chord tables in Roman Numerals. Once I have got a robust system of my ad hoc notation, I want to use it so as I can forget keys and just play any in any key, by glancing at the structure.
Last edited by ZeroZero; 11/30/14 12:40 AM.
Win 11 64, Asus Rog Strix z390 mobo, 64 gig RAM, 8700k
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Woodshedding - Learning to Play!
|
Joined: Jul 2007
Posts: 1,769
Expert
|
|
OP
Expert
Joined: Jul 2007
Posts: 1,769 |
What do people think of this site?# http://www.musictheory.net/lessons/44Do be sure to click on a sentence as the image changes in context The bit that really starts to do my head in is the way the inversions are notated using 6 and 4. That makes my brain cell hurt! I think I will stick with 1 for first inversion and 2 for second.It's ridiculously hard to achieve the 6/4 fraction in WORD. Z
Last edited by ZeroZero; 11/30/14 12:47 AM.
Win 11 64, Asus Rog Strix z390 mobo, 64 gig RAM, 8700k
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Woodshedding - Learning to Play!
|
Joined: Jul 2007
Posts: 1,769
Expert
|
|
OP
Expert
Joined: Jul 2007
Posts: 1,769 |
https://www.dropbox.com/s/cxud1uxsuvs9axb/Over%20The%20Rainbow.docx?dl=0Is my prep sheet if your interested - you might find it useful. The melodies are just memorised. Z
Last edited by ZeroZero; 11/30/14 01:04 AM.
Win 11 64, Asus Rog Strix z390 mobo, 64 gig RAM, 8700k
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Woodshedding - Learning to Play!
|
Joined: Oct 2008
Posts: 19,412
Veteran
|
|
Veteran
Joined: Oct 2008
Posts: 19,412 |
Noel, there seems to be conflicting notations, I notice you don't make use of lower case. Wiki does it seems. Try this site ... http://www2.siba.fi/muste1/index.php?id=87&la=enAlso, if you want a good book to read on the principles of harmony, I suggest the original Walter Piston book called "Harmony". http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Walter_PistonHis book was published in the mid-20th century. Professor Piston is one of America's great theorists. He only ever used uppercase Roman numerals. I don't know whether his revised edition (edited and added to by another music academic, Mark DeVoto) uses uppercase or a mixture of upper- and lowercase. Regards, Noel P.S. At the end of the day, the best approach is to do what works best for you. I prefer all uppercase Roman numerals because the major/minor 3rd is accommodated by the key signature in diatonic harmony. I also prefer using the system that incorporates aspects of figured bass with the Roman numerals (as mentioned in the page you posted the link to). For example ...  In the key of G major, the above chords would be Bm, Am (first inversion), G (second inversion). In the key of Am, the same notation would refer to Caug (if one uses the harmonic minor scale), Bmb5 (first inversion), Am (second inversion). By the way, that's a very understandable notation that you've put together for "Over The Rainbow". It does the job well. That's all that matters.
MY SONGS...Audiophile BIAB 2024
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Woodshedding - Learning to Play!
|
Joined: Jul 2007
Posts: 1,769
Expert
|
|
OP
Expert
Joined: Jul 2007
Posts: 1,769 |
Thank you Noel,
Yes I have the Piston, read it some years ago. I only read treble clef fluently, unfortunately, so the examples are beyond my reading skills. As it is late in life for me (I started piano about six years ago at 54) I skipped the reading, except real book style, which is not a problem. I don't do much classical, though I memorised some Bach. I find memorisation prevents sight reading skills from developing - but that's another thread....
PS I have tidied up the template
Last edited by ZeroZero; 11/30/14 05:09 AM.
Win 11 64, Asus Rog Strix z390 mobo, 64 gig RAM, 8700k
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Ask sales and support questions about Band-in-a-Box using natural language.
ChatPG's knowledge base includes the full Band-in-a-Box User Manual and sales information from the website.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Update your Band-in-a-Box® 2025 for Windows® Today!
If you’ve already purchased Band-in-a-Box® 2025 for Windows®, great news—a new update is now available! This update introduces a handy new feature: a vertical cursor in the Tracks window that shows the current location across all tracks, and more.
Discover everything included in this free update and download it now at https://www.pgmusic.com/support_windowsupdates.htm#1124
Video: Band-in-a-Box® 2025 for Windows®: Boot Camp: The AI Lyrics Generator
With Band-in-a-Box 2025® for Windows®, we've introduced an exciting new feature: the AI Lyrics Generator! In this video, Tobin guides you step-by-step on how to make the most of this new tool.
Band-in-a-Box® 2025 for Windows®: Boot Camp: The AI Lyrics Generator video.
Check out the forum post for more information.
Video: Band-in-a-Box® 2025 for Windows®: Using VST3 Plugins
Band-in-a-Box 2025® for Windows® now includes support for VST3 plugins, bringing even more creative possibilities to your music production. Join Simon as he guides you through the process in this easy-to-follow demonstration!
Video: Band-in-a-Box® 2025 for Windows®: Using VST3 Plugins
Join the conversation on our forum.
Video: Band-in-a-Box 2025 for Windows: Using The BB Stem Splitter!
In this video, Tobin provides a crash course on using the new BB Stem Splitter feature included in Band-in-a-Box 2025® for Windows®. During this process he also uses the Audio Chord Wizard (ACW) and the new Equalize Tempo feature.
Video: Band-in-a-Box® 2025 for Windows®: Using the BB Stem Splitter
Check out the forum post for some optional Tips & Tricks!
Congrats to Misha (Rustyspoon)…downloaded/installed a full Audiophile 2025!
Breaking News!
We’re thrilled to announce that Rustyspoon has made PG history as the very first person to successfully complete the download and install of the full Band-in-a-Box 2025 Windows Audiophile Edition (with FLAC files)—a whopping 610GB of data!
A big shoutout to Rustyspoon for stepping up to be our test "elf!"
Thank you for your support, Rustyspoon!
Band-in-a-Box 2025 for Windows Videos
With the launch of Band-in-a-Box® 2025 for Windows, we're adding new videos to our YouTube channel. We'll also share them here once they are published so you can easily find all the Band-in-a-Box® 2025 and new Add-on videos in one place!
Whether it's a summary of the new features, demonstrations of the 202 new RealTracks, new XPro Styles PAK 8, or Xtra Styles PAKs 18, information on the 2025 49-PAK, or detailed tutorials for other Band-in-a-Box® 2025 features, we have you covered!
Reference this forum post for One-Stop Shopping of our Band-in-a-Box® 2025 Videos - we will be updating this post as more videos are added!
Band-in-a-Box 2025 for Windows is Here!
Band-in-a-Box® 2025 for Windows is here, packed with major new features and an incredible collection of available new content! This includes 202 RealTracks (in Sets 449-467), plus 20 bonus Unreleased RealTracks in the 2025 49-PAK. There are new RealStyles, MIDI SuperTracks, Instrumental Studies, “Songs with Vocals” Artist Performance Sets, Playable RealTracks Set 4, two new sets of “RealDrums Stems,” XPro Styles PAK 8, Xtra Styles PAK 19, and more!
Special Offers
Upgrade to Band-in-a-Box® 2025 with savings of up to 50% on most upgrade packages during our special—available until December 31, 2024! Visit our Band-in-a-Box® packages page for all the purchase options available.
2025 Free Bonus PAK & 49-PAK Add-ons
We've packed our Free Bonus PAK & 49-PAK with some incredible Add-ons! The Free Bonus PAK is automatically included with most Band-in-a-Box® for Windows 2025 packages, but for even more Add-ons (including 20 Unreleased RealTracks!) upgrade to the 2025 49-PAK for only $49. You can see the full lists of items in each package, and listen to demos here.
If you have any questions, feel free to connect with us directly—we’re here to help!
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Forums65
Topics83,517
Posts758,779
Members39,140
| |
Most Online3,932
Nov 19th, 2024
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Dansk
Deutsch - Windows
Español
Français - Windows
Italiano - Windows
Nederlands
Polski
Português
Svenskt
русский
Japanese
Simplified Chinese
Traditional Chinese
Korean