Previous Thread
Index
Next Thread
Print Thread
Go To
Styles and RealTracks Wishlist
Joined: Nov 2002
Posts: 44
M
MarkW Offline OP
Enthusiast
OP Offline
Enthusiast
M
Joined: Nov 2002
Posts: 44

I am a veteran BIAB user and have upgraded many times over the years. I really appreciate the program and the work that has gone into developing and improving it (especially appreciated the recent GUI upgrade).

I am becoming increasingly frustrated, however. Although the program is improving in many areas and the REAL instruments are truly excellent, I still can't get it to do exactly what I need.

As a singer-songwriter, I find that BIAB arrangements are not good enough for a full broadcast-quality production, as they're just not flexible enough to provide song development and interest from intro to end of song (unless you put a lot of extra effort into it, outside of BIAB). But I am OK with that and have come to understand that BIAB and REAL BAND cannot be substitutes for true musicians and a recording studio.

But I would like to be able to put out a decent, simple demo with just vocal and minimal instrumentation. However, I have 2 main difficulties with this:

(1) The arrangements are mostly way too busy and overworked for a simple song demo.

(2) The existing tracks generally sound far too genre-specific for my needs: the country is VERY country, the blues "screams" blues, etc. Whereas, I am looking for arrangements that are a more SUBTLE blend of rock/jazz/blues/country ("Americana", for want of a better label), and less likely to be immediately identified and labelled as distinctly one or the other.

So, what I am wishing for is:

(1) A selection of very spare/simple/minimal accompaniment tracks and/or band arrangements (e.g., bass + drums or percussion + piano or guitar), mostly down- to mid-tempo, that *leave a lot of room for the vocal*. A lot less flash, a lot less NOTES played, but with several levels of dynamics and intensity, that can carry a song through from beginning to end (intro, verses, choruses, bridge, outro).

(2) Tracks that are less genre-specific and provide a more subtle and sophisticated blend of current American musical styles.

Many thanks for considering this!
Mark

Styles and RealTracks Wishlist
Joined: Apr 2013
Posts: 8,464
C
Veteran
Offline
Veteran
C
Joined: Apr 2013
Posts: 8,464
I imagine there are many singer-songwriters that are in total agreement with you and share your frustration on this. I know I've been frustrated in the past trying to get that 'just right' sound from out of my head and into an audio file using BIAB and RB. You make some credible and relevant points in your wish and although unsolicited, I'd like to respond and share how I overcame some of my frustrations in hopes it will help you and others who suffer the same frustrations.

First, I realized that BIAB/RB the songwriting tool and BIAB/RB the broadcast quality demo tool are two different modes housed in the same box.

For the singer-songwriter to forge out ideas and preserve them in audio, one can easily find an acceptable style from the thousands available in BIAB, enter the chords and have music to listen to as the lyrics, chords, bridges are added/removed, verses and structure experimented with until you are satisfied with your song. Your time is spent on the song and not on the technicalities of software.

BIAB is absolutely capable of producing professional, broadcast quality audio. But to do so, does require more time, technical knowledge of music, mixing, producing and the technical features available within BIAB/RB. I should also note that many project tracks created in BIAB/RB are moved to other DAW's for processing and mastering but professional, broadcast quality is achievable using PGMusic software.

Mixing Realtracks, midi/super midi and live user instruments can create music nuanced to any mixed genre, custom riff sound that an artist can imagine.

Some writer/arrangers use BIAB to create their arrangements and print the arrangements then go into a studio and record using studio musicians.

I also participate in the PGMusic User Forum where forum members post their original songs created using PGMusic software. This is a good place to share your original work and receive constructive critiques, mixing and production advice and sometimes having a more experienced BIAB user collaborate with your production. It is also a good place to listen to the varied BIAB styles and instruments that you may not have taken the opportunity to audition yourself. You will hear some songs that are broadcast quality productions on the user forum. It is also a place that you can use to audition styles and instruments to create your own custom styles that become your default style to use for your song creations.

In conclusion, all of the tools, styles and instruments are already in BIAB to do what you wish for but unfortunately, there is no possible way that PGMusic can create a style that is perfect for every singer/songwriter that uses BIAB. But you as an individual can easily create a style for your songwriting from the vast array of available styles and instruments.

Then, if you wish to get into producing your own demo's, BIAB is there for you too. Just a lot more time and work.


BIAB 2025:RB 2025, Latest builds: Dell Optiplex 7040 Desktop; Windows-10-64 bit, Intel Core i7-6700 3.4GHz CPU and 16 GB Ram Memory.
Styles and RealTracks Wishlist
Joined: Aug 2011
Posts: 10,561
Veteran
Offline
Veteran
Joined: Aug 2011
Posts: 10,561
+1

I thought of the campfire styles when I saw this request. With those styles in mind the addition of acoustic guitar Realtracks playing barre chords, pedal steel playing whole note swells and half step slides would be nice additions.


Jim Fogle - 2025 BiaB (1124) RB (1) Ultra+ PAK
DAWs: Cakewalk by BandLab (CbB) - Standalone: Zoom MRS-8
Laptop: i3 Win 10, 8GB ram 500GB HDD
Desktop: i7 Win 11, 12GB ram 256GB SSD, 4 TB HDD
Music at: https://fogle622.wix.com/fogle622-audio-home
Styles and RealTracks Wishlist
Joined: Jun 2012
Posts: 19,789
Veteran
Online Content
Veteran
Joined: Jun 2012
Posts: 19,789
+1
This is a good point. There are so many different ways to produce a style. Just changing the number of instruments isn't always enough to get the required feel.


BIAB & RB2025 Win.(Audiophile), Sonar Platinum, Cakewalk by Bandlab, Izotope Prod.Bundle, Roland RD-1000, Synthogy Ivory, Kontakt, Focusrite 18i20, KetronSD2, NS40M Monitors, Pioneer Active Monitors, AKG K271 Studio H'phones
Styles and RealTracks Wishlist
Joined: Nov 2012
Posts: 4,786
Veteran
Offline
Veteran
Joined: Nov 2012
Posts: 4,786
Originally Posted By: MarkW
(1) The arrangements are mostly way too busy and overworked for a simple song demo.
I'm going to presume you've already tried the "Force track to simple" trick and found that still insufficient. And I know you're making a request and not really asking for advice or 'tips', but I'm going to mention one anyway, which you (and others) might not have considered:

Always spend the extra minute it takes to insert the intended melody as Midi into the Melody track before you start rendering the accompanying instruments!
You can then mute it, put a "Performance track" on it (vocal or any other thing), or use it for whatever you like. But if you need to free up that channel, then don't delete the underlying midi data until after you've rendered (and frozen!) the other tracks.
Now, you may ask, why is this important if I'm only going to make backing tracks for a singer or something and the core reason is simply: The program obviously can't hear your vocal, but it can detect the midi - and it does make a difference in how the accompanying realtracks turn out. In other words, they do somewhat 'take into account' (for the lack of a better term) if the melody is there or not, or more importantly when it's there and when not, if the midi data is there. And this, for your singer, should be quite important, I would wager cool
But don't just take my word for this. Have a listen to these samples: The first is from BBox own "Artist" collection, and showcases how the accompanying piano provides this lovely flourish right after the melody. And the second sample is from a song I myself made (so the BBox crew couldn't possibly have prepared something specifically for it!), notice how the piano actually seems to be replicating the melody in part. I maintain that these cases didn't "just happen", that what you get from the Realtracks is not just arbitrary or 'random', hence my advice.


Just because you can, doesn't mean you should!
----------------------------------------------------------------------
BBox 2022 Audiophile, Mac Pro Intel, OSX 10.6.8, 800x600 (TV VGA)
Styles and RealTracks Wishlist
Joined: Aug 2011
Posts: 10,561
Veteran
Offline
Veteran
Joined: Aug 2011
Posts: 10,561
Excellent advice Eddie,

I hope you will copy your post as a new message in the recording section. I think it would create an interesting discussion.


Jim Fogle - 2025 BiaB (1124) RB (1) Ultra+ PAK
DAWs: Cakewalk by BandLab (CbB) - Standalone: Zoom MRS-8
Laptop: i3 Win 10, 8GB ram 500GB HDD
Desktop: i7 Win 11, 12GB ram 256GB SSD, 4 TB HDD
Music at: https://fogle622.wix.com/fogle622-audio-home
Styles and RealTracks Wishlist
Joined: Nov 2012
Posts: 4,786
Veteran
Offline
Veteran
Joined: Nov 2012
Posts: 4,786
Originally Posted By: JimFogle
Excellent advice Eddie,

I hope you will copy your post as a new message in the recording section. I think it would create an interesting discussion.
I appreciate the sentiment, thanks, but I don't know. This was a pretty direct response to a pretty specific issue (one I had been meaning to make ever since this thread started but hadn't the opportunity 'til now), and as such I felt was a pretty 'safe' entry to make, you know.
You're quite welcome to copy it or make any other references to it you see fit, if you think it should be noticed elsewhere.


Just because you can, doesn't mean you should!
----------------------------------------------------------------------
BBox 2022 Audiophile, Mac Pro Intel, OSX 10.6.8, 800x600 (TV VGA)
Styles and RealTracks Wishlist
Joined: Apr 2010
Posts: 5,139
Veteran
Offline
Veteran
Joined: Apr 2010
Posts: 5,139
Originally Posted By: Icelander
Originally Posted By: MarkW
(1) The arrangements are mostly way too busy and overworked for a simple song demo.
I'm going to presume you've already tried the "Force track to simple" trick and found that still insufficient. And I know you're making a request and not really asking for advice or 'tips', but I'm going to mention one anyway, which you (and others) might not have considered:

Always spend the extra minute it takes to insert the intended melody as Midi into the Melody track before you start rendering the accompanying instruments!
You can then mute it, put a "Performance track" on it (vocal or any other thing), or use it for whatever you like. But if you need to free up that channel, then don't delete the underlying midi data until after you've rendered (and frozen!) the other tracks.
Now, you may ask, why is this important if I'm only going to make backing tracks for a singer or something and the core reason is simply: The program obviously can't hear your vocal, but it can detect the midi - and it does make a difference in how the accompanying realtracks turn out. In other words, they do somewhat 'take into account' (for the lack of a better term) if the melody is there or not, or more importantly when it's there and when not, if the midi data is there. And this, for your singer, should be quite important, I would wager cool
But don't just take my word for this. Have a listen to these samples: The first is from BBox own "Artist" collection, and showcases how the accompanying piano provides this lovely flourish right after the melody. And the second sample is from a song I myself made (so the BBox crew couldn't possibly have prepared something specifically for it!), notice how the piano actually seems to be replicating the melody in part. I maintain that these cases didn't "just happen", that what you get from the Realtracks is not just arbitrary or 'random', hence my advice.






That is a very cool trick, Eddie. Have to try that. Thanks.

Regards,

Bob

Styles and RealTracks Wishlist
Joined: Nov 2012
Posts: 4,786
Veteran
Offline
Veteran
Joined: Nov 2012
Posts: 4,786
Just be aware that in my experience with this it can sometimes take maybe 2-3 re-renderings for this to really start being effective (and sometimes if you do too many it actually starts to go away again), so be sure to output the good ones to audio before doing another re-render.
Also, and this is quite important: Never attempt this with "fast rendering" enabled, make sure that's turned OFF!


Just because you can, doesn't mean you should!
----------------------------------------------------------------------
BBox 2022 Audiophile, Mac Pro Intel, OSX 10.6.8, 800x600 (TV VGA)
Styles and RealTracks Wishlist
Joined: Apr 2010
Posts: 5,139
Veteran
Offline
Veteran
Joined: Apr 2010
Posts: 5,139
Originally Posted By: Icelander
Just be aware that in my experience with this it can sometimes take maybe 2-3 re-renderings for this to really start being effective (and sometimes if you do too many it actually starts to go away again), so be sure to output the good ones to audio before doing another re-render.
Also, and this is quite important: Never attempt this with "fast rendering" enabled, make sure that's turned OFF!





Thanks for the good info!


Regards,

Bob

Styles and RealTracks Wishlist
Joined: Jul 2000
Posts: 26,606
Veteran
Offline
Veteran
Joined: Jul 2000
Posts: 26,606
Originally Posted By: Icelander
Never attempt this with "fast rendering" enabled, make sure that's turned OFF!

Could you please elaborate on this? I'm wondering if it is from your experience, or if Dr. Gannon actually said this, or if it's in the manual someplace and I missed it? If it's from your experience, are there any circumstances (styles etc.) in which it works better or worse? Thanks.


BIAB 2025 Win Audiophile. Software: Studio One 7 Pro, Swam horns, Acoustica-7, Notion 6, Song Master Pro, Win 11 Home. Hardware: Intel i9, 32 Gb; Roland Integra-7, Presonus 192 & Faderport 8, Royer 121, Adam Sub8 & Neumann 120 monitors.
Styles and RealTracks Wishlist
Joined: Nov 2012
Posts: 4,786
Veteran
Offline
Veteran
Joined: Nov 2012
Posts: 4,786
Originally Posted By: Matt Finley
Originally Posted By: Icelander
Never attempt this with "fast rendering" enabled, make sure that's turned OFF!

Could you please elaborate on this? I'm wondering if it is from your experience, or if Dr. Gannon actually said this, or if it's in the manual someplace and I missed it? If it's from your experience, are there any circumstances (styles etc.) in which it works better or worse? Thanks.
First off, all of this is "based on my experience", just so that is clear.
What I'm getting at with this particular note is that when you turn the "Fast render" on, the rendering process is still going on as you play (and this fact is straight from the video where 'Fast Render' was first introduced!), whereas if you turn it OFF, the program registers the whole song before 'deciding' which of its many playing variables it should go for per bar. The end result tends thus to be better (both technically and musically) when this feature is turned off.
But again, this is my own experience, mileage may vary.


Just because you can, doesn't mean you should!
----------------------------------------------------------------------
BBox 2022 Audiophile, Mac Pro Intel, OSX 10.6.8, 800x600 (TV VGA)
Previous Thread
Next Thread
Go To

Link Copied to Clipboard
ChatPG

Ask sales and support questions about Band-in-a-Box using natural language.

ChatPG's knowledge base includes the full Band-in-a-Box User Manual and sales information from the website.

PG Music News
Update your Band-in-a-Box® 2025 for Windows® Today!

If you’ve already purchased Band-in-a-Box® 2025 for Windows®, great news—a new update is now available! This update introduces a handy new feature: a vertical cursor in the Tracks window that shows the current location across all tracks, and more.

Discover everything included in this free update and download it now at https://www.pgmusic.com/support_windowsupdates.htm#1124

Video: Band-in-a-Box® 2025 for Windows®: Boot Camp: The AI Lyrics Generator

With Band-in-a-Box 2025® for Windows®, we've introduced an exciting new feature: the AI Lyrics Generator! In this video, Tobin guides you step-by-step on how to make the most of this new tool.

Band-in-a-Box® 2025 for Windows®: Boot Camp: The AI Lyrics Generator video.

Check out the forum post for more information.

Video: Band-in-a-Box® 2025 for Windows®: Using VST3 Plugins

Band-in-a-Box 2025® for Windows® now includes support for VST3 plugins, bringing even more creative possibilities to your music production. Join Simon as he guides you through the process in this easy-to-follow demonstration!

Video: Band-in-a-Box® 2025 for Windows®: Using VST3 Plugins

Join the conversation on our forum.

Video: Band-in-a-Box 2025 for Windows: Using The BB Stem Splitter!

In this video, Tobin provides a crash course on using the new BB Stem Splitter feature included in Band-in-a-Box 2025® for Windows®. During this process he also uses the Audio Chord Wizard (ACW) and the new Equalize Tempo feature.

Video: Band-in-a-Box® 2025 for Windows®: Using the BB Stem Splitter

Check out the forum post for some optional Tips & Tricks!

Congrats to Misha (Rustyspoon)…downloaded/installed a full Audiophile 2025!

Breaking News!

We’re thrilled to announce that Rustyspoon has made PG history as the very first person to successfully complete the download and install of the full Band-in-a-Box 2025 Windows Audiophile Edition (with FLAC files)—a whopping 610GB of data!

A big shoutout to Rustyspoon for stepping up to be our test "elf!"

Thank you for your support, Rustyspoon!

Band-in-a-Box 2025 for Windows Videos

With the launch of Band-in-a-Box® 2025 for Windows, we're adding new videos to our YouTube channel. We'll also share them here once they are published so you can easily find all the Band-in-a-Box® 2025 and new Add-on videos in one place!

Whether it's a summary of the new features, demonstrations of the 202 new RealTracks, new XPro Styles PAK 8, or Xtra Styles PAKs 18, information on the 2025 49-PAK, or detailed tutorials for other Band-in-a-Box® 2025 features, we have you covered!

Reference this forum post for One-Stop Shopping of our Band-in-a-Box® 2025 Videos - we will be updating this post as more videos are added!

Band-in-a-Box 2025 for Windows is Here!

Band-in-a-Box® 2025 for Windows is here, packed with major new features and an incredible collection of available new content! This includes 202 RealTracks (in Sets 449-467), plus 20 bonus Unreleased RealTracks in the 2025 49-PAK. There are new RealStyles, MIDI SuperTracks, Instrumental Studies, “Songs with Vocals” Artist Performance Sets, Playable RealTracks Set 4, two new sets of “RealDrums Stems,” XPro Styles PAK 8, Xtra Styles PAK 19, and more!

Special Offers
Upgrade to Band-in-a-Box® 2025 with savings of up to 50% on most upgrade packages during our special—available until December 31, 2024! Visit our Band-in-a-Box® packages page for all the purchase options available.

2025 Free Bonus PAK & 49-PAK Add-ons
We've packed our Free Bonus PAK & 49-PAK
with some incredible Add-ons! The Free Bonus PAK is automatically included with most Band-in-a-Box® for Windows 2025 packages, but for even more Add-ons (including 20 Unreleased RealTracks!) upgrade to the 2025 49-PAK for only $49. You can see the full lists of items in each package, and listen to demos here.

If you have any questions, feel free to connect with us directly—we’re here to help!

Forum Statistics
Forums65
Topics83,798
Posts761,836
Members39,208
Most Online8,978
Yesterday at 12:34 AM
Newest Members
String Picker, Wayne N, Pierre Lescars, Lethal, FloHo
39,208 Registered Users
Top Posters(30 Days)
musocity 222
MarioD 170
Jim Fogle 111
jpettit 105
DC Ron 94
Today's Birthdays
martinL, Morgan Wright
Powered by UBB.threads™ PHP Forum Software 7.7.5