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I've known some fine musicians that originally learned music by ear and very few of them ever got good at site reading. They can study a piece of sheet music and get an idea of what to play but have great difficulty playing note for note if site reading.
On the other hand I know some fine musicians that can grab a piece of sheet music, set it on a stand and sound like they have played the song forever. But, take away the sheet music, tell them the key signature for the song and start playing and the musician can not play along.
Obviously the ability to play by ear and the ability to sight read are both important skills to have but it appears to me that once a musician learns proficency at one skill the musician has extreme difficulty developing the second skill.
One of the things I use to most admire about the Tonight Show band and Paul Shaffer's Late Show band were both bands had musicians that could sight read or improvise as needed.
Thoughts or comments?
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I am a firm and staunch believer in education in general and music in particular, so I always suggest music lessons if only so everybody in the project can speak "music" with equal fluency. There is nothing more fristrating to me to tell a singer "That phrase needs to be anticipated" and he doesn't know what I mean. Or "play that for 2 extra measures" and they don't know what a measure is. Now, that comes from one who has a string music education background. Not at the level of a Matt Finley kind of guy who was a music educator, but I know my way around charts and sheet music.
Knowing how to read, however, doesn't equate to strong improvisational skills, nor does it make anybody a better or worse player, depending on which side of that line they are on. I guess what I am saying is that they are two different skills and while they have a tangent effect on each other, they are different and complimentary skills.
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I play by ear 100% of the time. Tell me the key if you want....or....I can figure it out pretty quick if you don't.
I can read the music at an elementary level. Essentially, I know the lines and spaces of the treble clef better than the bass clef....but I can eventually figure them all out including the ledger lines. But not well enough to read the music like I can read a book.
I've known a bunch of players, mostly in churches that could not play by ear if their lives depended on it but throw some Bach or Chopin in front of them in the key with 5 flats and they could make you believe they'd been playing it all their lives, as you mentioned. One of the ladies was a strict sight reader and could play anything.... so one day I asked her what the key of the song she was playing was.... she didn't know.... she could play it but didn't know how to tell the key. I asked her how many flats or sharps.... she said 2 sharps.... D major. That blew my mind. How did she ever learn to play without knowing something so basic as the key signature... That's one of the things my piano teacher drilled my on constantly.
I believe in education but I can also see where it can stifle a person's ability to create and be spontaneous. So for me, it's a balancing act.... but .....
I'd rather play with folks who can play by ear.
Last edited by Guitarhacker; 10/06/15 08:17 AM.
You can find my music at: www.herbhartley.comAdd nothing that adds nothing to the music. You can make excuses or you can make progress but not both. The magic you are looking for is in the work you are avoiding.
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Obviously the ability to play by ear and the ability to sight read are both important skills to have but it appears to me that once a musician learns proficency at one skill the musician has extreme difficulty developing the second skill.
Thoughts or comments?
Not necessarily, both need to be practiced. As Eddie mentioned all should take music lessons. A good teacher will teach you how to read music along with theory while a great one will also teach improvisation. Both are very important if you are to make it professionally. With today's technology, mostly BiaB, you can both practice site reading and improvisation anytime you want. The band is always ready! On a side note back in the mid 60's I was one of the few guitarists that could read music and I could improvise. Because of this I was asked to join a wedding band and as I needed the money I did. That was one of the most important things that I ever did. Site read out of the original fake book and also improvise based on the chord structure. Plus a lot of those songs were not in guitar friendly key signatures, i.e. a lot of Eb, Bb and Ab. I got a great education playing with those old timers in that wedding band.
Unclear if the pianist is a total beginner or a professional jazz player?
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I like to think of music like a language.
It's very handy to be able to read. Book newspaper signs music etc.
And to write. Notes stories directions songs etc.
And to speak sing play and make noises others can understand and to hear what others say and play.
Don't suppose it's necessary to do all 3 but it's very handy. Cheers.
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I've known some fine musicians that originally learned music by ear and very few of them ever got good at site reading. They can study a piece of sheet music and get an idea of what to play but have great difficulty playing note for note if site reading.
On the other hand I know some fine musicians that can grab a piece of sheet music, set it on a stand and sound like they have played the song forever. But, take away the sheet music, tell them the key signature for the song and start playing and the musician can not play along.
Obviously the ability to play by ear and the ability to sight read are both important skills to have but it appears to me that once a musician learns proficency at one skill the musician has extreme difficulty developing the second skill.
One of the things I use to most admire about the Tonight Show band and Paul Shaffer's Late Show band were both bands had musicians that could sight read or improvise as needed.
Thoughts or comments? The majority of players I work with are both good sight readers and good improvisers. Good examples are the service bands, especially the ones in D.C. The ability to both sight read and improvise are high in demand. The ones who do both work the most in the D.C. area. Ray
Last edited by raymb1; 10/06/15 05:30 PM.
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I do both. But I generally prefer to sight read. I can usually sight read a chart straight out, even if I don't know or have never heard the tune.
Figuring out chords by ear is probably a bit easier than figuring out chords and also working out the entire melody at the same time.
YMMV
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a lot of those songs were not in guitar friendly key signatures, i.e. a lot of Eb, Bb and Ab. I got a great education playing with those old timers in that wedding band.
One really interesting period of time was when I played with the church "band". To call it a band was a misnomer. It was more of an orchestra due to the large number of instruments that you would normally find in an orchestra. Since most of them were the "flat" instruments... trumpets and such things.... lots of the sheet music was geared towards them. As such, and due to the music minister's "bizarre*" likes in music....(* you had to be there) we often played in the "flat keys". As Charlie pointed out, Bb, Eb, and Ab. It was, to say the least, an education in "sight reading of the chords". The sheet music always had chords written on it. If there was a chord on it I didn't know, I'd look it up and add it to the vast repertoire of chords in my head. When the other guitarist was reaching for his capo, I was playing the chords as indicated. Some of that stuff was pretty challenging to play since the chords were rarely the straight up open chords 90% of guitar players use. It all ended rather rudely and abruptly... but that's a story for another day and another thread.
You can find my music at: www.herbhartley.comAdd nothing that adds nothing to the music. You can make excuses or you can make progress but not both. The magic you are looking for is in the work you are avoiding.
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I am in a curious position in regard to this. I read very fluently for Brass, for example all the Beethoven symphonies. I thought this would transfer easily to sax, but it did not. I had to larn to read again. Eventually I got to be able to do it. Then when I switched to piano I found sight reading really hard. I discovered the reason. It was because I was memorising everything, so after a couple of goes around I was no longer reading. This meant I could not really learn to sight read. I now just do real book sight reading.
Z
Last edited by ZeroZero; 10/07/15 01:22 AM.
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Then when I switched to piano I found sight reading really hard. I discovered the reason. It was because I was memorising everything, so after a couple of goes around I was no longer reading. This meant I could not really learn to sight read.
Z That's funny. When I took piano lessons as a child... my piano teacher would hand me a new piece of music to learn the following week. She would set it on the piano and play through it so I could hear what it sounded like. The following week, I'd show up for my lesson and she'd ask me to play the new piece. So I would. One week, after I played it rather flawlessly..... because I had practiced it all week.... she sat silently as I played it. After I finished, she didn't say a word for several seconds.... then she said... "Herbert, that was really nice. Now.... would you please play that again and this time, play what's actually written on the paper." Busted... big time. I was listening to her play it and going home and playing the songs from memory....and of course, I played kind of what was there but mostly adding things and leaving others out.... I had, and still have a good ear and she did recognize that skill. Some time later, I went to the lesson one day and after a few minutes, she asked me how much time I had spent practicing the piano that week. I told her. It wasn't very much. I was generous in my lie and told her about 15 minutes total. She asked how much time I spent playing the guitar that week. I told her that too, several hours I said, underestimating this one by several hours. I would come home from school and spend several hours daily playing along with the radio & record player learning and playing songs. She looked at me over her glasses with that stern teacher's stare she had perfected over decades of teaching piano students. She told me to pack my music and go home since I was wasting her time and my mom's money, but to keep playing the guitar. It was a short lecture but it seemed to last a long time. My piano lessons were done. I learned a lot from that lady about music and theory. Thank you Mrs Leigh. My mom was not happy but she got over it and I kept playing the guitar.
You can find my music at: www.herbhartley.comAdd nothing that adds nothing to the music. You can make excuses or you can make progress but not both. The magic you are looking for is in the work you are avoiding.
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I don't want to open that can of worms again so I will just make this statement and not elaborate, as this was discussed to death.
I believe that there is a subtle difference between a "musician" and "someone who knows how to play an instrument". And this thread is kind of about where I believe that line is.
Funny that you mentioned the horns and "flat" instruments.
When I took up the sax I bought an alto. I took it home, played a note on the piano and found it on the sax. I did that with a sax fingering book open and though I knew about it being an Eb instrument I had to hear for myself that the note that showed fingering and called F# was the top three keys closed and the middle key on the bottom hand closed, that note in my brain was A. I learned my sax in concert key. Then someone handed me charts written in Eb and before I did the gig I literally had to write new charts transposed to concert key. I have been playing sax now for over 30 years and still know it in concert key. Why that stinks is that if you hand me a tenor or a soprano I have to think about every note sine it is a Bb instrument, and that same F# on the paper, a concert A on the alto, is now a concert E. Totally messes me up. And if I have to think when I play, I can't play. I am too busy thinking.
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I don't think it's necessarily an either/or situation.
I learned to read before I learned to play by ear, and I'm very good at both. So are many other musicians that I know.
On the other hand I also know some musicians who are good at one but not the others.
Personally, I think both skills are necessary, along with at least an understanding of basic music theory.
You could be a great author of novels without learning to read or write by recording your voice. (similar to reading music). And you can do it without learning grammar (similar to music theory). But most people cannot, and the few that do have extraordinary talents that we mortals can only dream about having.
There are dozens of different skills involved in playing music, and they aren't distributed evenly among us. Reading, playing by ear, transposition, improvisation, phrasing, dynamics, are just a few. Some people seem to have them all, others have some strong and some weak. When you practice, it makes sense to practice what you are weak at.
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<...>I learned my sax in concert key. Then someone handed me charts written in Eb and before I did the gig I literally had to write new charts transposed to concert key. I have been playing sax now for over 30 years and still know it in concert key. Why that stinks is that if you hand me a tenor or a soprano I have to think about every note sine it is a Bb instrument, and that same F# on the paper, a concert A on the alto, is now a concert E. Totally messes me up. And if I have to think when I play, I can't play. I am too busy thinking. This is one of those skills I talked about in my previous post. I play flute and wind synth in concert key, Bb Tenor&Soprano and Eb Alto&Bari. I can read a concert chart and transpose to play my tenor or soprano just fine. Tenor has been my main sax since I was in Junior High School. I can't do that on Eb Alto or Bari. I suppose if I was predominantly and alto player, I'd learn that skill too. And I like your distinction between a musician and someone who knows how to play an instrument. IMHO a musician can read music (not necessarily sightread difficult charts but woodshed them), and knows at least basic music theory. There are of course exceptions and people will come up with a half dozen musicians who can't read music and ignore the fact that they are less than a thousandth of a percent of all musicians. But my opinion and a dollar will buy a cup of coffee (unless you go to Starbucks). Insights and incites by Notes
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Know what else is weird for me, Notes? I CAN NOT play a guitar with a capo. My brain is SO LOCKED on those fret markers and chords in positions related to those markers that I just can't use a capo. I have tried a dozen times and once I have to start thinking about where the next chord is, I can no longer play. Strange, I know, but it is how it is.
And those maniacs that use one capo in front of another just on the top 4 strings... HOW do they do that?
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Bwahahahaha Says more about the topic than a 1000 words!
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I don't want to open that can of worms again so I will just make this statement and not elaborate, as this was discussed to death.
I believe that there is a subtle difference between a "musician" and "someone who knows how to play an instrument". And this thread is kind of about where I believe that line is.
Funny that you mentioned the horns and "flat" instruments.
When I took up the sax I bought an alto. I took it home, played a note on the piano and found it on the sax. I did that with a sax fingering book open and though I knew about it being an Eb instrument I had to hear for myself that the note that showed fingering and called F# was the top three keys closed and the middle key on the bottom hand closed, that note in my brain was A. I learned my sax in concert key. Then someone handed me charts written in Eb and before I did the gig I literally had to write new charts transposed to concert key. I have been playing sax now for over 30 years and still know it in concert key. Why that stinks is that if you hand me a tenor or a soprano I have to think about every note sine it is a Bb instrument, and that same F# on the paper, a concert A on the alto, is now a concert E. Totally messes me up. And if I have to think when I play, I can't play. I am too busy thinking. Yes Eddie I know what you mean. My head is screwed too having been tought trumpet in Bb. At an early age I got an audition with a very fine orchestra. I had been playing in brass bands. They immediately handed me sheets in all sorts of keys to sight transpose. I just fell flat on my face and it killed me inside. This notation stuff, this monk's spider scrawl, can get so distracting and so needlessly complicated and visually cluttered. I never got comforable with bass clef it always seemed so needless to put the C in the place where A is, and even then, if you do this on a transposing instrument the C your playing may be an Eb or a Bb or some other thing. Makes my brain hurt. I just think there must be easier ways to do all this. No wonder people fall over when you take their dot's away.  Z
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I CAN NOT play a guitar with a capo. My brain is SO LOCKED on those fret markers and chords in positions related to those markers that I just can't use a capo. You need to stop looking at the fret board. Play by feel. You should know the chords and be able to jump to them instantly. So, don't look. Only look if you need to jump to a barre chord or to fond the first note of a solo.... then simply do a quick mental calculation.... capo is up 2 frets (for example) so the barre is up 2 frets past the marker. Once I get into a solo or chords on a song, I rarely look at the guitar fret board. How else can one sing and play at the same time?
You can find my music at: www.herbhartley.comAdd nothing that adds nothing to the music. You can make excuses or you can make progress but not both. The magic you are looking for is in the work you are avoiding.
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Herb, my other thought was that since I would only capo to one alternate position on the neck that I might get stick on dots and put them on what would become the 3rd fret to my eyes if I capo on the 2nd fret. It's just SO difficult for me to have my brain trained 2 different ways. I have a friend who plays her guitar in this weird tuning (from 6 to 1, DADGAD) and then picks up a different guitar in standard tuning and plays it. I would have to put myself in a place where I sit in a quiet corner and purge my brain of everything I know about the guitar after playing it since 1964. I have to play instinctively. If I have to think at all about what I am doing, I am 2 measures behind the rest of the band. I CAN play open tuning, like open D or open G or open E, when I play slide.
I imagine if I holed up and spent time I could learn the "split brain" thing but I really don't perform any more and if i am going to learn anything new it wouldn't be anything in music. Like I want to find a college that will let me sit in and audit wind technology classes so I can learn how to turn wind into electricity. Then do the same with solar. 59 years of music has been enough.
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Know what else is weird for me, Notes? I CAN NOT play a guitar with a capo. My brain is SO LOCKED on those fret markers and chords in positions related to those markers that I just can't use a capo. I have tried a dozen times and once I have to start thinking about where the next chord is, I can no longer play. Strange, I know, but it is how it is.
And those maniacs that use one capo in front of another just on the top 4 strings... HOW do they do that? Any capo is just a different tuning. My capo is the index finger. I don't care about the fret. You know the difference between "absolute" and "relative"? The fifth fret on a guitar without a capo is absolute, the fifth fret on a guitar with capo is relative. If you play barré chords, there is no difference between an A or a Bb, actually. You just start at a different fret. (I don't care about the key, that includes spelled out chords. Everthing is relative. I play in the key of C on any fret of the guitar. Smile) In your case that might be difficult on first sight. (You know, counting everthing you do...I also count a lot. I do understand you in this case.) On a second glance it might come easy. You just start to count at a different "0" when using a capo. Edit: corrected one typo
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Whether it's a summary of the new features, demonstrations of the 202 new RealTracks, new XPro Styles PAK 8, or Xtra Styles PAKs 18, information on the 2025 49-PAK, or detailed tutorials for other Band-in-a-Box® 2025 features, we have you covered!
Reference this forum post for One-Stop Shopping of our Band-in-a-Box® 2025 Videos - we will be updating this post as more videos are added!
Band-in-a-Box 2025 for Windows is Here!
Band-in-a-Box® 2025 for Windows is here, packed with major new features and an incredible collection of available new content! This includes 202 RealTracks (in Sets 449-467), plus 20 bonus Unreleased RealTracks in the 2025 49-PAK. There are new RealStyles, MIDI SuperTracks, Instrumental Studies, “Songs with Vocals” Artist Performance Sets, Playable RealTracks Set 4, two new sets of “RealDrums Stems,” XPro Styles PAK 8, Xtra Styles PAK 19, and more!
Special Offers
Upgrade to Band-in-a-Box® 2025 with savings of up to 50% on most upgrade packages during our special—available until December 31, 2024! Visit our Band-in-a-Box® packages page for all the purchase options available.
2025 Free Bonus PAK & 49-PAK Add-ons
We've packed our Free Bonus PAK & 49-PAK with some incredible Add-ons! The Free Bonus PAK is automatically included with most Band-in-a-Box® for Windows 2025 packages, but for even more Add-ons (including 20 Unreleased RealTracks!) upgrade to the 2025 49-PAK for only $49. You can see the full lists of items in each package, and listen to demos here.
If you have any questions, feel free to connect with us directly—we’re here to help!
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