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I think you have a point JJJ.
I touched on this but not the legal side in a post some weeks ago and that point was RT/RD's are REAL MOT MIDI. That's the beauty of the concept, taking world class players and putting them in the studio with real instruments. Not playing midi controllers and sample libraries. How many times have we all talked about that in the many threads about separating the Real Drum recordings into separate parts of the drum kit? With a real studio recording of an acoustic drum kit that's pretty much impossible to do but that ability already exists using midi but that's not what the RD's are all about. They're real not midi.
The recent exception is the new synth RT's. I certainly don't know for sure but I suspect that PG either owns the synths themselves or legally paid for their use. Now that I see what I just wrote I strongly suspect that since PGM is a well known commercial music company they must have paid someone for the use of those synth sounds. I kind of doubt that simply owning a Moog or Prophet for example means PGM can use it for these commercial RT's without paying. I think Dave Smith would get a cut if it's one of his Prophets.
A few years back someone requested some jazz scat RT's and other vocal type background things. I have a Kurzweil PC3 that has their Take 6 samples in it and at first I thought hey, I can create a vocal user track and help this person out. But then I thought the exact same thing. Take 6 vocals have been a Kurzweil exclusive soundset for years and maybe I shouldn't be doing that with their samples.
Since I'm not an attorney either I would like for Peter to chime in about this. If it is OK then I will do some background vocal RT's using my Kurzweil. You guys would love those.
Bob
Last edited by jazzmammal; 04/24/16 08:23 AM.
Biab/RB latest build, Win 11 Pro, Ryzen 5 5600 G, 512 Gig SSD, 16 Gigs Ram, Steinberg UR22 MkII, Roland Sonic Cell, Kurzweil PC3, Hammond SK1, Korg PA3XPro, Garritan JABB, Hypercanvas, Sampletank 3, more.
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I think you have a point JJJ.
I touched on this but not the legal side in a post some weeks ago and that point was RT/RD's are REAL MOT MIDI. That's the beauty of the concept, taking world class players and putting them in the studio with real instruments. Not playing midi controllers and sample libraries. How many times have we all talked about that in the many threads about separating the Real Drum recordings into separate parts of the drum kit? With a real studio recording of an acoustic drum kit that's pretty much impossible to do but that ability already exists using midi but that's not what the RD's are all about. They're real not midi.
The recent exception is the new synth RT's. I certainly don't know for sure but I suspect that PG either owns the synths themselves or legally paid for their use. Now that I see what I just wrote I strongly suspect that since PGM is a well known commercial music company they must have paid someone for the use of those synth sounds. I kind of doubt that simply owning a Moog or Prophet for example means PGM can use it for these commercial RT's without paying. I think Dave Smith would get a cut if it's one of his Prophets.
A few years back someone requested some jazz scat RT's and other vocal type background things. I have a Kurzweil PC3 that has their Take 6 samples in it and at first I thought hey, I can create a vocal user track and help this person out. But then I thought the exact same thing. Take 6 vocals have been a Kurzweil exclusive soundset for years and maybe I shouldn't be doing that with their samples.
Since I'm not an attorney either I would like for Peter to chime in about this. If it is OK then I will do some background vocal RT's using my Kurzweil. You guys would love those.
Bob Thanks for sharing your perspective Bob! I feel bad for upsetting Frank but I honestly believe we need clarification on the legalities of this! Maybe jford is correct and this is far enough "downstream" from the original samples that it is not an issue. And even if it is an issue, almost certainly, our sharing of UserTracks here is unlikely to draw the attention of folks like IK and NI. But I would really love to get PG's opinion on this. If it is OK I would also like to create a few UserTracks from the samples I have collected over the years!
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Just a few thoughts...
I think it might be useful at this stage to remember exactly what is a realtrack, and consequently a user-track.
If you navigate to your realtracks folder on your hard drive, open the folder and then open the sub-folder for a synth instrument, you'll see a number of audio files. These will likely be windows media, or wav if your lucky enough to be using the audiophile version. Double click on any of the audio files and it will play music for a few minutes. That is a realtrack - a piece of music. It is NOT a sample. It is no different to any piece of music performed on a sample player and as such it is legitimately the property of the performer. In this case the session musician has assigned copyright to PGM, who has become the legal owner of the music.
I believe that there is no way back from this. Neither the manufacturer of the sample player, nor the sample library can have any claim on this music, in exactly the same way as with any song. This is evidenced and can be observed by common practice and indeed, the whole music industry would cease to function if this were not the case. Every high earning performer would be swamped with actions from equipment suppliers and the lawyers would become even richer.
Now, if PGM as the legal owner, give me permission to take this piece of music, slow it down, pitch-shift the key and then copy and paste the chords in a different order, do I have to pay cash to the sample library? I think not. If I use a software program such as Realband to automate this procedure the principle remains.
At the end of the day, a sample is a sample, but a piece of music is something different and each are governed by separate rules.
(The usual legal disclaimers apply - this is only the opinion of the author.)
Just saying ...
ROG.
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Right, and I can see that Rog. You're saying an RT is a piece of music assigned by the owner to PGM who then has the right to allow it's customers to use it in any way they like. Ok, interesting point.
This gets into the weeds of what is a copywritable piece of music. The RT's are simply chord patterns and you can't copyright chords alone so then an RT is really nothing but another song construction tool using exclusive samples belonging to someone else. An RT not a real piece of music, it's sole purpose is to allow people to construct what could be a real copywritable piece of music.
This could boil down to intent. What's the intent of the creator of an RT? The intent is not to create a real piece of music themselves, the intent is to give it away. Therefore, what are they giving away? Why, certain sounds belonging to someone else.
This could make my head hurt.
Bob
Biab/RB latest build, Win 11 Pro, Ryzen 5 5600 G, 512 Gig SSD, 16 Gigs Ram, Steinberg UR22 MkII, Roland Sonic Cell, Kurzweil PC3, Hammond SK1, Korg PA3XPro, Garritan JABB, Hypercanvas, Sampletank 3, more.
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Hi Bob.
I think what you mean is that you can't copyright a chord chart, which is correct. However, once you play an instrument over the chords it becomes a piece of music which you can copyright. If you were right, then every piece of music based on a 12 bar blues would be in the public domain. Obviously this isn't the case. Once you play over the chords you introduce phrasing and timing which identifies it as original. If your phrasing and timing copies exactly that of an existing piece, then you're in trouble. See what I mean?
If you get into defining what is and what isn't a piece of music you've got real problems. Think about John Cage. Not that will make your head hurt!
ROG.
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A UserTrack is a PG invention for sharing instrument sounds for the sole purpose of allowing an end user of PG products to create their own songs using the instrument sounds contained inside the UserTrack. It would be quite a stretch to claim a UserTrack is a song. Maybe there is a claim to be made about the patterns being played but as Bob said the intent was not to create a song, rather, it was to share the instrument sounds and played patterns.
I wish PG would offer their viewpoint on this!
Last edited by JohnJohnJohn; 04/25/16 08:57 AM.
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A UserTrack is a PG invention for sharing instrument sounds for the sole purpose of allowing an end user of PG products to create their own songs using the instrument sounds contained inside the UserTrack. I don't believe this is correct. User Tracks are not designed to allow you to use the instrument sounds in other songs, but to allow you to use the phrases, riffs, and chord-specific melodic material to create new songs. As with RealTracks, they allow you to use the phrases created in the audio file you created, which can give other songs the "same feel as " or "in the style of" whatever you recorded. The only reason you need the SGU file for the chord progression is not to create sound from a particular chord progression, but is so that BIAB/RealBand can choose a phrase you recorded which is closest to the chord in your own song, to avoid stretching the pitch too much. It's really a matter of transposition and choosing phrases that most closely match a particular chord to create new songs. But it isn't about the underlying sound; it's about the phrases I recorded, much like phrases I create when writing a song. And of course, once I record the phrase, whether with a real instrument or digitally from a keyboard using some particular sound source, I would then apply some reverb, some equalization, maybe some distortion, maybe some de-tuning, maybe some echo, and any number of other effects. Sure the underlying sound may have been based on the sound library I used, but good luck trying to find that resulting sound in the original library. How is that re-distributing the sound maker's note specific samples? What I end up with is uniquely my creation, and again, if I can't use those sound sources to do this, then technically, I can't use them for anything. Truly, intellectually I see both viewpoints here, but I unfortunately (or fortunately, as the case may be) in reading the EULA, I don't find the text to support not using a sound vendors sound library to make my own unique creations. If I'm not allowed to do it, then the EULA should say so, and that's why you accept the license agreement to use the product. I doubt they would come after you for using it creatively in a manner not prohibited by either the letter of or intent of the user agreement. Most of the EULA's I've seen talk about sharing the software and the specific library files themselves; they don't even talk about the music you create from the use of the product.
John Laptop-HP Omen I7 Win11Pro 32GB 2x2TB, 1x4TB SSD Desktop-ASUS-I7 Win10Pro 32GB 2x1.5TB, 2x2TB, 1x4TB SATA BB2024/UMC404HD/Casios/Cakewalk/Reaper/Studio One/MixBus/Notion/Finale/Dorico/Noteworthy/NI/Halion/IK http://www.sus4chord.com
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A UserTrack is a PG invention for sharing instrument sounds for the sole purpose of allowing an end user of PG products to create their own songs using the instrument sounds contained inside the UserTrack. I don't believe this is correct. User Tracks are not designed to allow you to use the instrument sounds in other songs, but to allow you to use the phrases, riffs, and chord-specific melodic material to create new songs. As with RealTracks, they allow you to use the phrases created in the audio file you created, which can give other songs the "same feel as " or "in the style of" whatever you recorded. The only reason you need the SGU file for the chord progression is not to create sound from a particular chord progression, but is so that BIAB/RealBand can choose a phrase you recorded which is closest to the chord in your own song, to avoid stretching the pitch too much. It's really a matter of transposition and choosing phrases that most closely match a particular chord to create new songs. But it isn't about the underlying sound; it's about the phrases I recorded, much like phrases I create when writing a song. And of course, once I record the phrase, whether with a real instrument or digitally from a keyboard using some particular sound source, I would then apply some reverb, some equalization, maybe some distortion, maybe some de-tuning, maybe some echo, and any number of other effects. Sure the underlying sound may have been based on the sound library I used, but good luck trying to find that resulting sound in the original library. How is that re-distributing the sound maker's note specific samples? What I end up with is uniquely my creation, and again, if I can't use those sound sources to do this, then technically, I can't use them for anything. Truly, intellectually I see both viewpoints here, but I unfortunately (or fortunately, as the case may be) in reading the EULA, I don't find the text to support not using a sound vendors sound library to make my own unique creations. If I'm not allowed to do it, then the EULA should say so, and that's why you accept the license agreement to use the product. I doubt they would come after you for using it creatively in a manner not prohibited by either the letter of or intent of the user agreement. Most of the EULA's I've seen talk about sharing the software and the specific library files themselves; they don't even talk about the music you create from the use of the product. Really great points John. I too see both sides of this. But is there a line? 1) I use a sample library but play some cool riffs of my own devising and turn that into a UserTrack to distribute 2) I use a sample library that includes strums on a guitar and I just use those directly in my UserTrack to distribute 3) I use a sample library that includes specific patterns (as ST3 does) and everything I use in my UserTrack is ST3 samples using ST3 patterns I can see your point for #1 but when you get to #3 am I not simply and cleverly figuring out a way to redistribute some of the ST3 IP without paying for that?
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JohnJohnJohn.
A user track is quite simply a piece of music. The PG "invention" is the software which slices and dices the music, though even part of this is licensed from Zplane. The two are completely separate and should not be confused. The software could just as easily slice and dice a Rachmaninoff piano concerto.
You can play back a realtrack in media player, because it's just music and as music it's within the sample users permitted use. Intent never comes into it.
ROG.
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JohnJohnJohn.
A user track is quite simply a piece of music. The PG "invention" is the software which slices and dices the music, though even part of this is licensed from Zplane. The two are completely separate and should not be confused. The software could just as easily slice and dice a Rachmaninoff piano concerto.
You can play back a realtrack in media player, because it's just music and as music it's within the sample users permitted use. Intent never comes into it.
ROG. A UserTrack is no more a piece of music than a single ST3 sample is a piece of music. Neither was intended to be played and listened to. Both were intended to be used as digital instruments in a new song. So, based on the reasoning I am hearing here, it would be OK for PG to simply buy one license of SampleTank 3 and have their programmers spend the next few months converting all of the samples into UserTrack/RealTrack format. Since ST3 also has patterns they would not even need to do any playing! And then they would have a new product to sell? And IK would not object? Or, let me make this even simpler. Based on what you are saying I could simply string together every sample in the ST3 library and call it a "music" file! Then I would be free to redistribute it as long as I also have my own software that can slice and dice it before serving it up to my customers to use in their songs.
Last edited by JohnJohnJohn; 04/25/16 11:32 AM.
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As I have said a half mile back on this other page If anyone is worried: "Okay in that case just upload the midi file user track and I will use them in any of the vsti's I own - that way I can add key switches anywhere I like to get the sound I like - same with user track drums I can change the kit and re-mix it. So you would only need to save your midi user track to an mgu then I just render your midi file to a wav/wma along with the mgu/sgu in the user track folder." This way you can also transpose the midi first to what you want then use it on any vsti you like as there are so many free ones. How long would it take to upload a super midi user track to share ? Here's just one http://www.dskmusic.com/ 100% Royalty Free for any use. If you have Kontakt there's plenty of free instruments for that also.
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JohnJohnJohn.
I don't think it's going to be a good idea to get into a theoretical discussion about what constitutes a piece of music. I think this is where I leave it.
Cheers, ROG.
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Rog, your point above about the 12 bar blues is incorrect. The only thing copywritable about a standard 12 bar blues are the words, melody and song title and maybe not even the melody because so many basic blues melody's are virtually identical. The basic blues FORM is in the public domain. That I do know for a fact, it's been to court.
Chords alone, public domain. You write an identifiable song specific lick as part of the 12 bar blues, ok it's yours. My favorite example of a lick like that is Satisfaction. In that context a user track is not a piece of music. The creator has to put some kind of original element in it besides just chords and rhythm.
JFord so you think I'm ok to create some vocal tracks using my Kurzweil Take 6 samples? All they would be are jazzy oohs and aahs over some chords and I might be able to create a scat solo too.
This whole discussion is basically theoretical to me. Absent any direction from PG, I'm fine with these user tracks and Frank keep on posting them brother until you hear otherwise.
Bob
Biab/RB latest build, Win 11 Pro, Ryzen 5 5600 G, 512 Gig SSD, 16 Gigs Ram, Steinberg UR22 MkII, Roland Sonic Cell, Kurzweil PC3, Hammond SK1, Korg PA3XPro, Garritan JABB, Hypercanvas, Sampletank 3, more.
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My last post seems to have disappeared! I asked PG to review the thread and comment and they indicated they would.
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Bob, in my mind, the answer to your question should be whether you can use those oohs and aahs in any song you produce? What if you had an a capella section with just those oohs and aahs. And if you released that song for others to use, could I extract that part with the oohs and aahs, transpose it, and use it in my song? To me the answer is yes, and that's just a variation on user tracks and should be legal.
I do agree with JohnJohnJohn here, though, is it would be best if PG Music weighed in on this, since I'm sure they consulted with their lawyers before releasing User Track capability in the first place.
But still in my mind, companies have given me the right to use their sounds. I can't find anything to the contrary in the EULAs I've read.
John Laptop-HP Omen I7 Win11Pro 32GB 2x2TB, 1x4TB SSD Desktop-ASUS-I7 Win10Pro 32GB 2x1.5TB, 2x2TB, 1x4TB SATA BB2024/UMC404HD/Casios/Cakewalk/Reaper/Studio One/MixBus/Notion/Finale/Dorico/Noteworthy/NI/Halion/IK http://www.sus4chord.com
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Well, it's been 7 days and nary a peep from the PTB so I say it's been a fun discussion but if PG has no comment then it's all good.
Bob
Biab/RB latest build, Win 11 Pro, Ryzen 5 5600 G, 512 Gig SSD, 16 Gigs Ram, Steinberg UR22 MkII, Roland Sonic Cell, Kurzweil PC3, Hammond SK1, Korg PA3XPro, Garritan JABB, Hypercanvas, Sampletank 3, more.
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Well, it's been 7 days and nary a peep from the PTB so I say it's been a fun discussion but if PG has no comment then it's all good.
Bob I'd conclude the opposite! If it is all good why would they not say so?
Last edited by JohnJohnJohn; 05/03/16 02:02 PM.
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The best way is contact the specific manufacture of the specific sample library you want to use, directly.
I don't think PG can solve this issue for you as user track were designed for the user to record them selves playing an instrument.
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The best way is contact the specific manufacture of the specific sample library you want to use, directly.
I don't think PG can solve this issue for you as user track were designed for the user to record them selves playing an instrument. I agree with you and in an online chat PG told me "UserTracks are intended to be audio recordings of a musician with their instrument" but the person I spoke to also did not think there is a problem using sample libraries; she said she would have a moderator comment on the thread when they get time. I guess I'd choose not to ask the library owner directly for fear they would will automatically say "No!" Maybe it is best just to let this go and not ask anyone!!!
Last edited by JohnJohnJohn; 05/03/16 03:37 PM.
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Reference this forum post for One-Stop Shopping of our Band-in-a-Box® 2025 Videos - we will be updating this post as more videos are added!
Band-in-a-Box 2025 for Windows is Here!
Band-in-a-Box® 2025 for Windows is here, packed with major new features and an incredible collection of available new content! This includes 202 RealTracks (in Sets 449-467), plus 20 bonus Unreleased RealTracks in the 2025 49-PAK. There are new RealStyles, MIDI SuperTracks, Instrumental Studies, “Songs with Vocals” Artist Performance Sets, Playable RealTracks Set 4, two new sets of “RealDrums Stems,” XPro Styles PAK 8, Xtra Styles PAK 19, and more!
Special Offers
Upgrade to Band-in-a-Box® 2025 with savings of up to 50% on most upgrade packages during our special—available until December 31, 2024! Visit our Band-in-a-Box® packages page for all the purchase options available.
2025 Free Bonus PAK & 49-PAK Add-ons
We've packed our Free Bonus PAK & 49-PAK with some incredible Add-ons! The Free Bonus PAK is automatically included with most Band-in-a-Box® for Windows 2025 packages, but for even more Add-ons (including 20 Unreleased RealTracks!) upgrade to the 2025 49-PAK for only $49. You can see the full lists of items in each package, and listen to demos here.
If you have any questions, feel free to connect with us directly—we’re here to help!
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