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Quote:
i just want to use the software to make music. It is not a graphic program, it is a music creation tool, I don't need my hammer to sparkle or shine just drive nails!!!
+1
Also designing a GUI is sort of like farming turkeys, move the water trough to the other side of the pen and the turkeys will die of thirst. (... or so the story goes...) BIAB has a large existing install base so any changes to the interface should to be phased in gradually.
Not a request but more of a suggestion - keep the existing layout, but explore the idea of converting the GUI to WPF. Over the long run it I think it would save on maintenance costs, and probably increase stability along the way.
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I'm very much in favour of decluttering, dockable toolbars, more scroll options, better menus and colour co-ordination etc. The melodist and soloist screens are good cases in point. These are really difficult to look at and could have clearer headings leading your eye into different groups of functions.
The point about BIAB's limited arrangement functions being more important then the GUI is well made. The decision to go down the route of audio realism disguises the lack of development in the program's core midi functionality.
For example a lot could be done to improve the style editor including
..longer pattern sequences (why only two bars). Its not only in modal jazz tunes that musicians think in these longer sequences.
..more than one dedicated pattern chain
..global note mapping for altering voicings
..better and more varied chord masks
..abilty to determine what scales the chords are embellished by
Chord options could have
...a funtion to determine the direction (up or down) of the outer voices (bass and top note of chord) in relation to the previous chord.
...An option to include the alternate bass note in the piano voicing as is available in other auto accompaniment programs.
The option to allow/disallow embellishments in settings for this song should actually work and not be overriden by the command in the style editor.
Realism issues could be addressed by upping the resolution of the midi, allowing 8th resolution chords shots and holds that actually sound as 8ths.
i haven't even begun to mention the everyday commands such as the (in)ability to cut and paste on the chord sheet!! ... come on guys!! the lack of multiple undos. the inability to drag more than one note to a new location in the style maker......
These are just a few of the things BIAB could and should focus on imo.
After all just how many real tracks and real drums can you come out with at any one time relative to all the styles that exist in midi?
Regards
Alan
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There's some simple things that could be done to improve the UI of the program even if you're not going to completely change it. A good example is dialogs like this (I don't have BIAB 2010 but I'm assuming the dialog hasn't changed) http://www.pgmusic.com/images/bb2007_screenshot4.gifThe layout is amateurish. Now I know there's going to be a lot of long-term users that jump to the defence of BIAB but please understand this is an attempt to help pgmusic improve their product. There's good reasons to have a layout that is well-aligned, it actually makes the dialog easier to read/use, this is a well established principle in professional software design. A simple analogy is the use of text alignment in newspapers and books which aids in readability. The UI in BIAB has actually been used in computer software books as examples of how NOT to design dialogs, I think this is a sad state of affairs for pgmusic and what's worse is the small amount of time it would take to correct these sorts of things shows a lack of pride and professionalism at pgmusic.
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Quote:
The UI in BIAB has actually been used in computer software books as examples of how NOT to design dialogs, ...
Care to cite reference, please?
No offense, but these days, it seems that 87% of all stats are being made up on the spot...
--Mac
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I read that book ten years ago.
Anything else you can cite, particularly one that is current?
BIAB 2025 Win Audiophile. Software: Studio One 7 Pro, Swam horns, Acoustica-7, Notion 6, Song Master Pro, Win 11 Home. Hardware: Intel i9, 32 Gb; Roland Integra-7, Presonus 192 & Faderport 8, Royer 121, Adam Sub8 & Neumann 120 monitors.
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Quote:
I read that book ten years ago.
Anything else you can cite, particularly one that is current?
So you're saying that because the book is old the principles no longer apply and BIAB can ignore it?
I don't agree. There's been no change in thinking about these issues and the screen snap I linked to shows that these problems are still in the product. What's worrisome is that the book is 10 years old and BIAB still has these problems.
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I must say I think jr has a point. Now, don't get me wrong, I'm not asking for some slick, ultra-modern eye-candy piece of CPU and memory hogging kind of UI that loses functionality 'cos you can no longer find anything - a la Office 2007/vista/Win7. No, rather, just some attention to detail and a more regular, logical layout. My own experience is that you "get used" to it, but that really isn't good enough. I like BIAB, haven't looked at RB yet 'cos I really don't have the need. BIAB does far more than my current requirements as it is really just a sophisticated rehearsal tool for me. I don't even use the notation editor because, despite its supporters, I still reckon it is far too mouse oriented. So if I need a melody, I create it in NWC, export as MIDI and import - WA-A-AY quicker for me. And before I get jumped on, I realise I have zero studio experience, zero music (electronic) production experience, and probably zero other "important" areas of background to really "appreciate" what BIAB can do. That's all irrelevant. Two years ago I was a newbie to the product. I still am... Why? My time is limited, I need a product that is quick and easy to learn or it will take literally years for me to get up to speed. This is how BIAB is for me. In fairness, I'm having to learn more than just how to use the product, there's all that background mentioned above I somehow need to make up for too. BUT, if the UI were to be improved then my learning curve would be more of a mountain and less of a sheer precipice to ascend... Unfortunately, I'm at a loss to explain HOW to really improve it because I still haven't come to grips with all the functionality of BIAB. Like Mac says, I don't know what it is that I don't know, and the UI is making it harder for me to leap that particular hurdle. RB appears to be the same in important areas, let me cite an example from just this morning (my time): From the Windows 7 Oddities thread in the RB forum: Quote:
Hi Andrew,
Thanks for the feedback! After heeding your advice, I've seen the following changes in the StyleList.
Real Styles 264 increased to 344
Styles with RealTracks 765 increased to 857
Styles with RealDrums 755 stayed at 755
Are you or anyone else able to confirm that the numbers of RealTrack styles are correct now?
Hi rharv,
Thanks for wading in. I believe the situation you describe is exactly what happened to me. I don't typically launch a program from the install, but I'm pretty sure I did in this case. Figures!
Glen
Looked interesting so I scrolled up to find what Andrew had said:
Quote:
Quote:
As far as the missing styles go, I fixed that myself. I missed one of the 14 RealTrack DVDs during the install. This is a summary of the RealTrack styles now, does this sound right?
That looks pretty close. Open the RealTracks window, and then check the box 'Show styles that are NA' at the bottom. Do you have any N/A (not available) instruments? This is a good way to verify that you have all of the RealTracks to date. If you have any N/A, you could sort then by Set number (by clicking at the top of that column) and see if there is a particular set you are missing.
Once you have done that, I would next download the latest RealTracks update for sets 67-82 to make sure you aren't missing any of the latest .STY files. There were some .STY (Band-in-a-Box styles) added after the initial release.
http://www.pgmusic.com/support_windows_realdrums.htm#RealTracks67-82
Seems reasonable? Does to me, so I thought I check it out on my own copy of RB - just out of curiosity - can someone PLEASE tell me where to find
Quote:
Open the RealTracks window, and then check the box 'Show styles that are NA' at the bottom.
'cos it sure ain't obvious to me... I've searched every menu and button I can find and the closest thing there is to anything that resembles something associated with "Styles" is the button with the ellipses (...) next to the style name field. This thing takes you to an open file dialogue so's you can go find a style by name - OK if you know the name of what you want but useless to me...
To make matters worse, how do you select a style in the way you can in BIAB - I found it by accident - you click on the style field itself, not a button, and it still doesn't have what I'm looking for...
I'm sorry guys, but this UI is too "existing user" oriented. If you know your way round it's probably easy, if you're brand new to things PGMusic it's near impossible. UI's should be as intuitive as possible - the CUI (Common User Interface) standard was created for a reason (though m$ seem to be moving away from it with Office 2k7 etc.) - as a seasoned computer user (over 25 years as a professional in the game) I should be able to get reasonable functionality without going anywhere near a user guide. The guide should only be necessary for me when I start to get into the more complex and/or esoteric features - not the BASICS.
--=-- My credo: If it's worth doing, it's worth overdoing - just ask my missus, she'll tell ya  --=--You're only paranoid if you're wrong!
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I thought he made a good point also, and he did back up his claim with a cited reference.
But I still think he went over the line with that last personal attack.
"lack of pride and professionalism"
He was doin' just fine up to the end.
There's no need to take it to down to that level like that.
--Mac
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Hi, Lawrie - Does this help? Look at the bottom left. 
John Laptop-HP Omen I7 Win11Pro 32GB 2x2TB, 1x4TB SSD Desktop-ASUS-I7 Win10Pro 32GB 2x1.5TB, 2x2TB, 1x4TB SATA BB2024/UMC404HD/Casios/Cakewalk/Reaper/Studio One/MixBus/Notion/Finale/Dorico/Noteworthy/NI/Halion/IK http://www.sus4chord.com
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G'day John, thanks mate, that's it. My problem was I didn't know I needed and thus couldn't find how to get to the: "Assign RealTracks to Track" dialogue. Even after you showed me the dialogue (above) I still had trouble 'cos it's called: "Select and Generate RealTrack..." in the context menu, and seems to be only accessible from the context menu. That in itself isn't so bad, but... While I'm happy to admit some of this is pure ignorance on my part, surely the context menu option and the resultant dialogue title could match? Or am I just being plain thick? Then, you do get into the dialogue, select a style and where's the OK button? Huh? What the? Ok I'll just close it and see what happens - Oh, whaddya know, that did it. It should have an OK button. Now that I know there'll be no more confusion, but it cost me unnecessary time before I gave up and closed the dialogue, only to have it do what I was looking for... This is an unfriendly dialogue. It should have a cancel button tooThere is no doubt in my mind that BIAB and RB are amazingly powerful and versatile products, and I'm happy to concede that power brings, of necessity, complexity. But there is no need to add to the complexity by having inconsistencies and non compliance with standards in the UI. E.G in my previous missive I noted that access to style selection in RB is by clicking in the style name field - in BIAB there is a button to open the selection dialogue - why the difference? They both should have buttons for that task - that would be consistent with the CUA standard... /grumble  <edit> corrections and changes in italics.
Last edited by Lawrie; 01/14/10 02:59 AM.
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Hi, Lawrie -
Okay, I'm not defending the choices made about the UI, but here's my take on it.
RB's roots are from PowerTracks, not BIAB and have some BIAB features (added fairly recently).
For style selection, you can also click on the style name field in BIAB, and you can get into the style selection dialog there (although you get a menu first in BIAB; in RB you go right into it). So in that sense, they're not so different. But of course you have to know to do it that way. Buttons would probably be better. But they do share a common way of accessing the style selection dialog, just not the one that you intuitively expect.
John Laptop-HP Omen I7 Win11Pro 32GB 2x2TB, 1x4TB SSD Desktop-ASUS-I7 Win10Pro 32GB 2x1.5TB, 2x2TB, 1x4TB SATA BB2024/UMC404HD/Casios/Cakewalk/Reaper/Studio One/MixBus/Notion/Finale/Dorico/Noteworthy/NI/Halion/IK http://www.sus4chord.com
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G'day John, Quote:
<snip>
But they do share a common way of accessing the style selection dialog, just not the one that you intuitively expect.
(bolding and underline mine)
That's just my point. I recognise the relationships between the products though I don't have personal experience with Power Tracks, and the benefits of maintaning familiar things. However, the UI should be as intuitive as possible.
I really can't imagine how huge a task it would be to "fix" the UI. It certainly wouldn't be trivial, but why not look at a series of updates over the next few releases to spread the pain? This would also enable users to grow accostomed to the updates in a measured way as well. Ultimately new users will be presented with a less daunting UI and will be able to concentrate on their projects rather than on how to use the product.
--=-- My credo: If it's worth doing, it's worth overdoing - just ask my missus, she'll tell ya --=--You're only paranoid if you're wrong!
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Quote:
Quote:
I read that book ten years ago.
Anything else you can cite, particularly one that is current?
So you're saying that because the book is old the principles no longer apply and BIAB can ignore it?
I don't agree. There's been no change in thinking about these issues and the screen snap I linked to shows that these problems are still in the product. What's worrisome is that the book is 10 years old and BIAB still has these problems.
jr335, I didn't say that at all.
But, you said "computer software books" (plural) and I'm simply asking if you have more examples to back up your statement. I enjoyed reading the book you cited and am interested in reading more about this topic.
BIAB 2025 Win Audiophile. Software: Studio One 7 Pro, Swam horns, Acoustica-7, Notion 6, Song Master Pro, Win 11 Home. Hardware: Intel i9, 32 Gb; Roland Integra-7, Presonus 192 & Faderport 8, Royer 121, Adam Sub8 & Neumann 120 monitors.
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Quote:
But, you said "computer software books" (plural) and I'm simply asking if you have more examples to back up your statement. I enjoyed reading the book you cited and am interested in reading more about this topic.
Sorry I was expecting to get jumped on for criticizing BIAB as usually happens here. I should have been specific, it's only the book I quoted as far as I'm aware.
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Fair and constructive criticism of the program is welcome here, and can even garner support and cause positive change.
Exaggerated criticism, and making it appear someone said something they did not, will indeed get jumped on, as it should.
I accept your apology about the exaggeration.
BIAB 2025 Win Audiophile. Software: Studio One 7 Pro, Swam horns, Acoustica-7, Notion 6, Song Master Pro, Win 11 Home. Hardware: Intel i9, 32 Gb; Roland Integra-7, Presonus 192 & Faderport 8, Royer 121, Adam Sub8 & Neumann 120 monitors.
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Would we lose BiaB's very nice standalone ".exe" configuration that allows us to delete its folder or copy overtop for upgrades without losing anything by development moving to these "better" GUI tools.
In a lot of cases, I'm afraid that may be the case.
Just something else to add to the design decision table's list of inputs.
--Mac
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an easy way around the gui discussion would be to use "themes" whereby you can pick the one that you like. I know that you can customise the colors in biab, but a few built in themes wouldn't go amiss.
Paddy
Paddy McGurk,
Liverpool,
Don't mention the Beatles!!
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Wait a minute Matt. Do you in turn apologize to jr335 and the rest of us for maintaining and propagating the wretched GUI cited in GUI Bloopers? Just asking... 
Last edited by bonecall; 01/23/10 04:25 AM.
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I think that if any apology is due here, it should come from jr335, who typed an unwarranted personal attack concerning the pgmusic development staff.
"a lack of pride and professionalism at pgmusic"
Not from Matt, certainly.
--Mac
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