PG Music Home Forums General Discussion Help! Tech S.O.S (Off topic) Need to set up new home theater and PC recording system combination

I just discovered my 12+ year old Onkyo receiver is giving up the ghost. They sell on Ebay for about a hundred bucks so I'm not going to fix it, time to upgrade.

Here's where it gets tricky. I can handle simply setting up a new receiver that has HDMI switching, that's easy. Where it gets tricky is also using the system for my home studio needs. I've had two combined systems for years, one in the bedroom and one in the living room. My TV cable box is only in the LR but the computer and printer stays in the BR.

A few years ago I posted about how I ran a 25' HDMI cable along the wall in the BR then along the wall in the the closet which is the same wall as the living room, I put a small hole in the wall and the cable goes to the TV. Works fine. For audio, my new 60" has an optical out and the receiver has an optical in. That also works great. But when I want to record something musical using my keyboards I do that in the BR with a second HDMI cable running to my 32" TV there and for sound I have an Alesis amp, my mixer and a pair of 6" monitors.

Now, with that out of the way I'm thinking of doing it all in the LR but other than my cable box, I still want to keep the computer in the BR. I would like to use the BR home studio space as a home office space and do all my musical stuff in the LR but I really don't have room there for all the home studio stuff like sound modules, my mixer, the audio midi interface etc. My Sonic Cell goes to the PC via USB for example and the audio from the SC goes to the mixer.

I had no idea what features these new receivers have. In addition to 4-7 HDMI inputs, they have USB, ethernet, bluetooth and wifi. What I'm trying to wrap my head around is how any of those things can help me. I know ethernet is my home network which I never use because I only have one PC but does that also carry audio? I know USB can in certain cases. Bluetooth and Wi fi are wireless and I have no experience with that either.

Obviously for home studio type stuff I need to get the audio from the PC in the BR out to the new receiver in the LR. If I can easily do that somehow wirelessly then I would only need an audio interface in the LR that I could run a midi or USB cable from one of my keyboards and have that connected to the PC in the BR. To summarize my questions:

1. Please explain how the different wireless things might help. Or not.
2. Are there any wireless audio/midi interfaces? If not I could run a long USB cable through the wall to the PC in the BR.
3. Depending on 2, I could make room for my Sonic Cell in the LR and use a small USB hub so I can plug it into the PC along with the interface using the one USB cable going through the wall but what would be great is if that can be made wireless.

Almost forgot, Win 10 has a neat feature. For $50 you can get a wireless USB display adapter from Microsoft. One part plugs into the PC and the other part plugs into the new TV so that gets rid of the somewhat thick HDMI cable I'm running now through the wall so I could replace that with a USB cable. Everything I've read says it works well. So I'm really focused on getting the audio from the BR out to the receiver but somehow being able to plug my keyboard into an interface in the LR that can take that signal back to the PC in the BR.

Sorry for the long post but I don't know how to write this up quickly and easily. Thanks,

Bob

For a studio in the box, it's really best to have all the gear in one room. The only thing I would use 2 rooms for is sound isolation for recording, or to listen to the music in a different environment on a different system.

Trying to control the system remotely would be IMHO, and exercise in frustration. I'd find a way to keep all the studio gear in one place.

In my system, for example.... I have one computer and one interface and a pair of monitor speakers setting in a corner of a room. That's all my studio is currently comprised of. I have a stereo system connected to one of the interface outputs for the rare times I want to check the mix on a nice consumer grade system.

I get what you're saying Herb but I still want to see what I can do. I guess I'm the only one on the forum who understands what I'm looking for. I'll keep posting tidbits of info as I find it so here's one:

Wifi and bluetooth. Bluetooth compresses the signal so for high end audio, that's no good but wifi has much greater bandwidth and uses lossless audio plus has much greater range. From what I've read it can still be tricky to set up (what isn't in this realm?). It looks like wifi is the ticket so far. These new receivers I'm looking at all have both and of course I already have a router with wifi. That means all my stuff in the bedroom can be hidden under the desk, go into the PC and the audio comes out via wifi to the new receiver in the living room. Slick. Assuming I'm not driven crazy by interference from a neighbors network but from what I'm reading that's not a problem.

That leaves the question of how do I connect a keyboard for when I want to record something live using its internal sounds and not simply midi over USB? Right now I have my Kurzweil sitting on the desk for that purpose but I want to clear everything off and use the desk as a home office area, not a home studio. I could just KISS it and clear off the desk as needed, put the keyboard back and record like I do now but I would rather do that in the living room too. But then I have to route the audio outs from the KB back to the bedroom. I've found possible bluetooth adapters for that but not wifi. Wifi adapters are stictly USB into a computer thing apparently.

That's it for now, Chapter 3 coming soon looking at CAT 5 audio extenders...

Bob

Most of the digital mixers have USB/Ethernet capability and would have all the routing/input/switching to handle all of your home studio audio and TV audio wirelessly or cable. The Presonus units now interconnect and can be wirelessly remote controlled by Ipad/Iphone.

I've been completely focused on home theater receivers and something like a digital mixer never crossed my mind. It is intriguing but...

The biggest issue is these mixers do not have any HDMI inputs or optical inputs for audio which I need for the TV side of this although the cable box does have RCA analog outs. Then on the studio side, they do not receive wifi audio input like the HT receivers do.

The only wireless part of using a digital mixer is controlling it which I admit is very cool but that would require me having everything in the living room because the mixer has to be hard wired to a power amp which would have to be sitting by the TV. If I kept the mixer and power amp in the bedroom then I'm running speaker cables out to the living room and the TV cable box audio back to the mixer. That's a lot of cables running through the wall.

But as I'm writing this I really like the idea of controlling the mixer with a tablet. The TV really is secondary. Damn Charlie why did you have to bring this up? I do have room under the TV for one of these mixers and I do have a brand new Crown Class D PA power amp I've never used (another story). But, but....Arrggh

Bob

Ok, calm down and take a breath. If I did that it doesn't account for the PC audio. Most newer PC's including mine have HDMI video outputs. HDMI 2 which most now have also includes audio. I'm running an HDMI cable from my PC to the TV in the living room. The TV only has an optical audio out which I run to my old Onkyo receiver which is dying. How would I get that audio into one of these digital mixers when they don't have either HDMI or optical ins? These mixers are strictly pro audio with 1/4" and XLR inputs.

This means I would have to either use the crap mini plug out from the computer and run a 25" cable out to the mixer or hook up an audio midi interface and run the audio from that to the mixer. This is the reason I'm looking at wifi to transmit the audio to something that can receive wifi audio. These digital mixers don't do that but several HT receivers do.

Bob

Bob, It is my understanding the ethernet cable works similar to an analog snake and also to connect multiple mixers.

"These mixers are strictly pro audio with 1/4" and XLR inputs."

Most of these boards have a space for expansion cards for additional or alternate input/output configurations. Many also have optical, SPDIF or both.

I suggest you contact someone at an outlet like Sweetwater. I'll bet they tell you all kinds of ways you can part with your money for an ultimate home studio/TV/Remote setup.

I may have found something Charlie. It's this:

http://www.sweetwater.com/store/detail/XR12

I just watched the vid and I think this could be it and it's only $250. Another surprise is it's a full audio AND midi interface. This is the first digital USB mixer I've seen that includes midi and its small enough to fit by the TV so I can plug my keyboard into it right here in the living room.

I already have a USB extender going to the closet behind the TV for a bluetooth transmitter. I use that for my keyboard and mouse. No problem to hook that up to a hub and plug in this mixer and then all the audio from the PC is there.

For TV from my STB, it has analog RCA's so it can go to this mixer too. If I really think I need to use the digital output, there are small DAC's available that go between the STB and mixer to do exactly that.

I didn't get it at first but you nailed it buddy, thank you.

Bob

Another home theater retailer with a sterling reputation is ++ Crutchfield ++.

The nice thing about Crutchfield is they offer lifetime support for anything they sell.

That's a nice looking unit Bob and I hope that it works out for you. That seems to be a very reasonable price too.

Charlie

That XR12 looks interesting and might fit the bill. I was going to suggest a digital mixer. My son in law worked at a church that was cutting edge on audio and lights. They had iPads that would allow them to walk around the sanctuary and make changes as needed to the sound and the lights. Very handy when working with large rooms but I can also see where this might work for what you're wanting. The XR12 is waaaaay more affordable than the digital mixers I'm referring to that the church was using.

To answer your other question ( hope I understood this one correctly )

....how do I connect a keyboard for when I want to record something live using its internal sounds and not simply midi over USB?

You would treat it like any other audio source. Some of the guys using Sonar actually record the keyboard as midi and then send the midi to the external keyboard and allow it's internal sounds to be used and capture the sounds as audio because they love the internal sounds better than samples.

I've discovered something else. The XR12 will work as we can see but the XR18 has bi directional USB which allows the user to control 18 channels inside a DAW using the same remote software. The 12 and 16's will only sent two channels back to a DAW. That means with the 18 I can bring that and a laptop or maybe a Surface Pro and I have an 18 channel live remote recording system which is something else I've been thinking about. My old Akai HD recorder also has died and I need a new system. New the 18 sells for $699 but there are a few refurb units on Ebay for $529. This has me thinking is it worth it and do I need it? Now of course if I do that, do I want to mess with tearing apart this home system we're talking about in order to take the mixer out to a gig I want to record? Is it that big a deal, probably not but still once it's all set up do I want to keep unplugging and replugging everything?

Sigh, isn't this fun? If money was no object hey, I'd just get two...

Here's a question, does Real Band allow for bi directional multichannel USB? I do know that neither Biab or RB has any kind of remote DAW control but is it possible this bi directional USB could be a workaround? Anybody know? I also have Studio One and I know that does.

Oh, something else that is funny. I decided to nail down what my real problem is with my current receiver. I thought I had tested everything but it turns out it's my DVI to HDMI adapter from my new Zbox PC. I've been running the HDMI to the TV and using an optical cable from the TV to the receiver but I've lost the stereo. Speaker tests show no left channel but somehow the receiver is taking the right channel and sending it to both my speakers. I swear I was getting stereo a couple months ago but I'm not sure now. Anyway, I broke down the PC and put it in the living room and ran the optical cable direct from that to the receiver bypassing the TV and voila full stereo! So my immediate problem that started this thread is solved if I want to pick up a 25' optical cable to go with the HDMI. This stuff WILL drive you crazy.

This doesn't mean I'm not going to change things around because I've been thinking about all this anyway, losing the stereo just gave me a reason to start digging into it. This thread has definitely clarified my thinking about this.

Bob

I wonder if you can stream live too from it:-) The mixer sounds amazing. That Microsoft USB cable thingy might just work for me to send stuff from my PC/ in the office or tablet to the TV. I think the Behringer 16 also have bidirectional USB according to the guy in the video. Awesome piece of equipment.

Check this out from yesterday at the LA AES Show:

http://motu.com/newsitems/introducing-the-ultralite-mk4

$599 and they even talk about using it for home theater since they included optical inputs. Pretty cool and I'll have to do a detailed comparison to the Behringer. One thing I can see is it does not have built in wifi, that would have to be rigged separately.

Ohhh, not true! I just clicked on the link to show more about this unit and it supports something called Web App Control:



KEWEL.

Bob

That is a monster mixing unit for sure.

I get the feeling signal routing software may not be the most intuitive if they have to have 5 or 6 videos to explain all the different conditions you may encounter. On the other hand, learn to use the software and you'll be the go to guy and hero to everyone that wants to use it but don't want to take the time to learn how.

< Here's a question, does Real Band allow for bi directional multichannel USB? I do know that neither Biab or RB has any kind of remote DAW control but is it possible this bi directional USB could be a workaround? Anybody know? I also have Studio One and I know that does. >

Since RB's input/output is determined by the audio interface, I surmise it will. But with Studio One, the point is mute because it does.

The X32 Core is priced more reasonably than the Air x18 and can be externally linked to a router for wireless capability. The good news is it is a complete X32 console that is operated through an Ipad. It has the complete X32 software installed. That means as an interface it is 32 inputs and 32 outputs. It is a 40 input, 25 bus mixer. It will connect as a DAW controller via HUI, Mackie or Midi. Behringer provides a free, very intuitive editing app for easy programming. There are eight pro grade effects processors.

It will require a Behringer stagebox for live mixer use but nothing but a USB cable as an interface or controller.

I have temporary custody of an X32 console and it is awesome. There is nothing comparable in its price range in my opinion. Especially if you purchase the core model. Current street price is $600 and refurbished as low as $449.

I recently worked sound at a concert with a console (not the one I have custody of ) and the setup included the Behringer SD32 snake that connects AES50 Cat 5/6 cable. It didn't break a sweat running two 18" subs and two large full range towers, 7 monitors, 21 inputs while connected to a computer running Studio One recording all the channels and sending a stereo out to the onboard USB recorder. The recent firmware upgrade to version 3 addresses new interactions and functions for the air X18 and Ipad apps.

Behringer X32 Core

This is a really nice system, Charlie. It's more than I need (a Stagebox to provide a physical front end is $899) but others can get some good info from your post.

To have a full front end system with all that control for $1,500 or so is not bad for sure.

Bob