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Styles and RealTracks Wishlist
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Joined: Nov 2016
Posts: 299
Apprentice
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OP
Apprentice
Joined: Nov 2016
Posts: 299 |
By modern jazz styles Pg Music often means smooth jazz. That's ok, but consider this.
Bass players after 1970 don't walk all over the chorus any longer. They switch between walking and octaves and small higher octave melodies. The feel is much more free and sustained notes alternate with eigth notes and so on.
Same for drums. I long for drum styles that play different ride patterns than the same old stuff.
Sorry, but nobody plays standards in this way any longer. The fifties were great, but great musicians changed the sound and feel of the rhythm section. And Pg Music should honor that.
Examples are: Jarrett Trio, Joey Calderazzo, Geri Allen, Fred Hersch, Charles Lloyd.
In the Modern Jazz Pianist series there is some great contemporary playing. If there were styles like that, that'd be great.
If you hear software like iReal Pro it just gets on your nerve, the same outdated rhythms. Pg Music should bring modern jazz standard playing into our practice room. Odd times, relaxed comping, Dave Holland styles, Jason Moran, Adam Nussbaum, Joey Baron, McBride...
Biab, Kontakt, Sampletank and lots of nice libraries, from Fluffy audio to Abbey Road drums. Check out these great contemporary Jazz Styles: www.jazzstylezz.com
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Styles and RealTracks Wishlist
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Joined: Jun 2003
Posts: 716
Journeyman
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Journeyman
Joined: Jun 2003
Posts: 716 |
Dzjang I've been saying this for years. The modern jazz styles from 2004 were a response to the very same complaint I and few others made at the time about the rigidity and old time feel of the existing jazz styles up to that point. It's a promising start they didn't really build on and the move to Real Drums and Real Tracks was too slow and piecemeal to cover any more than the basics of each genre. The only thing I can suggest is that you get hold of the PG Modern Jazz Pianist program and try to roll your own styles out of the midi files included on that. Or else look up Doug Mackenzie's work which includes midi performances with that modern 'broken-time' feel to which you refer. That's a very hip list of names you've checked incidentally. I particularly like Joey Baron and Adam Nussbaum's work with John Abercrombie...and Dave Holland's use of odd time signatures and M-base funk presaged a lot of what's happening today in jazz. Maybe one day BIAB will finally get beyond the smooth and post-Metheny 'new age' jazz fixation and catch up with the innovations of the last 20/30 years or so. Hopefully other jazz regulars here will add their voice but here's a thumbs up from me FWIW. Alan
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Styles and RealTracks Wishlist
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Joined: Dec 2003
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A big +1 for RTs and MIDI, that is IF they keep what is available today and add the new styles to them.
Today I bought a doughnut without the sprinkles. Diets are hard!
64 bit Win 10 Pro, the latest BiaB/RB, Roland Octa-Capture audio interface, a ton of software/hardware
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Styles and RealTracks Wishlist
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Joined: Jun 2012
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Joined: Jun 2012
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Alan, great points you make. And yes, Doug McKenzie's work is sensational. He really cooks. Surrey with the Fringe is one of my favorites. I've seen him play live, a great musician. Maybe PG Music could use him to create some RealTracks (yes?)
BIAB & RB2025 Win.(Audiophile), Sonar Platinum, Cakewalk by Bandlab, Izotope Prod.Bundle, Roland RD-1000, Synthogy Ivory, Kontakt, Focusrite 18i20, KetronSD2, NS40M Monitors, Pioneer Active Monitors, AKG K271 Studio H'phones
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Styles and RealTracks Wishlist
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Joined: Nov 2016
Posts: 299
Apprentice
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OP
Apprentice
Joined: Nov 2016
Posts: 299 |
Trev is right: Doug McKenzie is great. Nevertheless, Miles Black can play like Joey Calderazzo. And Pg Music have been working with the likes of Kenny Barron and Renee Rosnes, notably players that use this looser jazz feel.
So I hope there'll be a face lift to bring biab into this age, :)) Maybe I exaggerate it a little, but younger musicians I play with are not really into biab, and,there being.little to replace.it, tend to not practice enough...
Biab, Kontakt, Sampletank and lots of nice libraries, from Fluffy audio to Abbey Road drums. Check out these great contemporary Jazz Styles: www.jazzstylezz.com
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Styles and RealTracks Wishlist
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Joined: Jul 2000
Posts: 26,606
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I don't think the marketing department can use that one just yet.
BIAB 2025 Win Audiophile. Software: Studio One 7 Pro, Swam horns, Acoustica-7, Notion 6, Song Master Pro, Win 11 Home. Hardware: Intel i9, 32 Gb; Roland Integra-7, Presonus 192 & Faderport 8, Royer 121, Adam Sub8 & Neumann 120 monitors.
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Styles and RealTracks Wishlist
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Joined: Jun 2003
Posts: 716
Journeyman
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Journeyman
Joined: Jun 2003
Posts: 716 |
I don't think the marketing department can use that one just yet. :-) Saw what you did there. Yet surely after 27 years it's ready to use: "Nobody supports the whole spectrum of jazz the way we do.. McCoy Tyner Hancock Hersch etc'. Seriously though Dzjang has a good point. Jazz rhythm sections have long since ceased to be mere timekeepers often phrasing with the front line and blurring the distinction between background and foreground. Yet so much of that is however a result of tune-specific group interaction and the need for BIAB styles that are useable on many similar tunes often promotes a lowest common denominator approach. Even so, multiple bass substyles that could be used in a modular fashion covering different rhythmic 'feels' and dynamic levels would go a long way to address the problem. Drums that imply and play around the beat instead of giving you the 'one' all the time would be good as well as a completely free 'rubato' style. I suppose being a practice tool BIAB wants to appeal to all educational levels including the novice. Yet among the skills you need for jazz is your own personal,internal rhythm section and the ability to respond to sudden unexpected shifts or 'curveballs' as you guys call them. :-) Alan
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Styles and RealTracks Wishlist
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Joined: Jul 2000
Posts: 26,606
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Posts: 26,606 |
Right you are. I support more variety of styles and the suggested names are great. I've played with the amazing Dave Holland. I love Kenny Barron but I'm not sure he would be in my list of the most cutting-edge players. Perhaps Brad Meldau could be included in the list of contemporary pianists mentioned so far. And I have lots of suggested players if you want them for contemporary Brazilian jazz.
I only registered an objection to the two generalities offered here, neither of which was needed to make the case for new styles. Not everyone in jazz is stuck in the 50s; some are stuck in the 20s, or 30s, or 70s or whatever. And from volunteer work with my local college I can attest that not every young player suffers from not practicing enough.
BIAB 2025 Win Audiophile. Software: Studio One 7 Pro, Swam horns, Acoustica-7, Notion 6, Song Master Pro, Win 11 Home. Hardware: Intel i9, 32 Gb; Roland Integra-7, Presonus 192 & Faderport 8, Royer 121, Adam Sub8 & Neumann 120 monitors.
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Styles and RealTracks Wishlist
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Joined: Jun 2012
Posts: 19,789
Veteran
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Veteran
Joined: Jun 2012
Posts: 19,789 |
Maybe PG Music could get Peter Baartmans to record some Jazz RealTracks styles. There's just about nothing that he can't deliver. Peter Baartmans, Jazz swing Mas Que Nada
BIAB & RB2025 Win.(Audiophile), Sonar Platinum, Cakewalk by Bandlab, Izotope Prod.Bundle, Roland RD-1000, Synthogy Ivory, Kontakt, Focusrite 18i20, KetronSD2, NS40M Monitors, Pioneer Active Monitors, AKG K271 Studio H'phones
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Styles and RealTracks Wishlist
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Joined: Nov 2016
Posts: 299
Apprentice
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OP
Apprentice
Joined: Nov 2016
Posts: 299 |
@Matt, wow, playing with Dave Holland must have been great. He's a perfect example of the contemporary bass player.
I'd have to ask you about contemporary Brazilian Jazz, since the bossa department is rather "spartan". Especially for the bass and drum comping in real styles. Lack of variety again. We would all benefit from some young blood...
@Journeyman, the risk of new styles being too tune specific and not for general use is very true. Jazz rhythm sections tend to play more melodically, or, as you put it, they respond much more to the dynamics of the tune or the soloist.
Nevertheless, Brad Mehldau's 5/4 arrangement of 'I didn't know what time it was" could be used on many tunes. Christian McBride's modern bebop comping style could fit lots of bop tunes. Eric Harland's mid tempo swing would render lots of old chestnuts into fresh vehicles for improv. Elvin Jones influenced a lot of young drummers, his styles could bridge the gap between the old and the hyper young.
Every contributor here, thx for interesting debate.
Biab, Kontakt, Sampletank and lots of nice libraries, from Fluffy audio to Abbey Road drums. Check out these great contemporary Jazz Styles: www.jazzstylezz.com
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Styles and RealTracks Wishlist
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Joined: Jan 2002
Posts: 1,486
Expert
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Expert
Joined: Jan 2002
Posts: 1,486 |
Hi Dzjang
You make some very important points and it would be nice to have the styles of jazz mus1c1ans of recent years
I was having difficulties trying to get close to the drum style of Steve Davis and I got somewhere near it using two methods
1.I made a hybrid style using one of the three or four drum styles which gave me the near feel and did the same finding a bass style
2.I imported the drum style from a wav file of his and then used that as another option
But it would be nice to have some styles of the musicians you mention as the term modern jazz now covers a wide range - all of which are needed
jazzman
BIAB - RealBand - 2022
Windows 10 64
Zoo computer with 7i processor- SSD 1TB -2TB HDD
Roland keyboards
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Styles and RealTracks Wishlist
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Joined: Dec 2002
Posts: 12,048
Veteran
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Modern Jazz! Just saw a film where a guy is given two tickets to a jazz recital. He is told to "take your girl friend". He says, "I don't know if she likes jazz", to which the fellow responds, "nobody likes jazz you just go and listen..." Point being, jazz continues to tweak its nose at the listener, presenting the sounds in all manners which make it difficult for a person to find a comfort level. Awkward (non standard) timing, no ability for the listener to anticipation what is coming or what just went by. You can never leave a concert whistling a melody. That said, I love jazz. But it took me a long time to tune my ears and hone my own musical skills to get comfortable. A listener needs to know what he is listening to. Or perhaps not. Perhaps jazz is not about being comfortable. Don't know? Just sayin, this "modern jazz" is a bit uncomfortable. I suspect it is missing the "swing".  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JtvGR8UX1L0
BIAB – 2025, Reaper (current), i7-12700F Processor, 32GB DDR4-3200MHz RAM, 1TB WD Black NVMe SSD, 2TB WDC Blue SSD, 1TB WD Blue, 2 TB SK NVMe, 6 TB External, Motu Audio Express 6x6
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Styles and RealTracks Wishlist
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Joined: May 2000
Posts: 15,776
PG Music Staff
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PG Music Staff
Joined: May 2000
Posts: 15,776 |
))) And yes, Doug McKenzie's work is sensational. He really cooks. Surrey with the Fringe is one of my favorites. I've seen him play live, a great musician.
Yes, I agree. And I guess you've noticed that he already uses BIAB for many backing tracks. And that he uses RealBand or PowerTracks to make his videos. (Along with video editing software). Doug Mackenzie is a great teacher, with a worldwide audience, (and a fellow Aussie of yours to boot) .. so you must be proud of him too! Also a very nice guy, I've emailed him a few times, and got some great video lessons from him. The world could use more people like Doug Mackenzie!
Have Fun!
Peter Gannon
PG Music Inc.
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Styles and RealTracks Wishlist
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Joined: Nov 2016
Posts: 299
Apprentice
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OP
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I just figured something out. Modern jazz (Jarrett, Calderazzo, Charles Lloyd, Joshua Redman) tends not to swing (all of their) their eight or sixteenth notes. They play even 8s and 16s, mixed with swing. I transcribed In Love in Vain by Jarrett and had a hard time finding a suitable style. Nearly all the "even"styles are bossa-like, but -though modern bassists use a lot of 1-5 (Dave Holland, Christian Mc Bride, Gary Peacock) - it's not latin! They tend to switch between some kind of two-beat to walking, but... they don't swing. They don't SWING. But NOT in a bad sense.  So, yes, @musicstudent is right, but he's oh so wrong. Listen to My Funny Valentine (Jarrett Still Live) You are so beautiful (Charles Lloyd) My one and only love (Chick Corea Akoustik Band) Miyako or Infant Eyes (Wayne Shorter) Soul Eyes (Kenny Barron with Stan Getz) It don't swing and it's pretty groovy
Last edited by Dzjang; 06/21/17 05:36 AM.
Biab, Kontakt, Sampletank and lots of nice libraries, from Fluffy audio to Abbey Road drums. Check out these great contemporary Jazz Styles: www.jazzstylezz.com
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Styles and RealTracks Wishlist
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Joined: Nov 2016
Posts: 299
Apprentice
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@PeterGannon He's right in using pg products, but he makes his own styles for the same reason: "modern" jazz, starting with Coltrane with Tadd Dameron and Bill Evans play a lot of straight 8's! Doug McKenzie plays Beautiful Love here: https://youtu.be/A3jkRqV9UWEHe clearly made up his bass n drums. Great basslines, that don't swing, but aren't latin or funk, these are reminiscent of the Bill Evans trio! And not found in the styles included in biab. The bass, just like Scott LaFaro, Ron Carter, Dave Holland, don't swing a lot, but it's not latin either. You got access to great rhythm playing (Doug McKenzie, Modern Jazz Pianist...) so making up some nice modern jazz would be so good. Remember, it's people as far back as Scott LaFaro, Jimmy Garrison, Elvin Jones, Max Roach who made jazz more modern and these styles are lacking. An "Even" jazz feel doesn't have to be latin or funk! I misunderstood a Herbie Hancock quote saying: if it ain't got that swing, why bother. I understood it as if he said: don't mind if it don't swing! It can be groovy without swing, but that was not what he meant, nevertheless...
Last edited by Dzjang; 06/21/17 05:35 AM.
Biab, Kontakt, Sampletank and lots of nice libraries, from Fluffy audio to Abbey Road drums. Check out these great contemporary Jazz Styles: www.jazzstylezz.com
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Styles and RealTracks Wishlist
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Joined: Jul 2000
Posts: 26,606
Veteran
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OK, this discussion has evolved and a great point is being made: contemporary players often play in straight eighths and it's not Latin.
I have to be careful when doing this that the whole band is into it; otherwise I stand out like a bebop player let loose in the early 30s.
BIAB 2025 Win Audiophile. Software: Studio One 7 Pro, Swam horns, Acoustica-7, Notion 6, Song Master Pro, Win 11 Home. Hardware: Intel i9, 32 Gb; Roland Integra-7, Presonus 192 & Faderport 8, Royer 121, Adam Sub8 & Neumann 120 monitors.
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Styles and RealTracks Wishlist
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Joined: Nov 2016
Posts: 299
Apprentice
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@MattFinley: I hear you! And feel your pain, Especially in midtempo or ballads, the Jarrett-Trane-Evans feel offers great soloing opportunity. But sometimes the band keeps on swinging those changes and it sets your music 50 yrs back. Biab offered some modern jazz and Jarrett styles, but these are very "free". We need Bill Evans and LaFaro, Fred Hersch, McCoy, Laverne. McCoy Tyner's debut has Satin Doll on it where he already plays in this straight feel and that still sounds modern.
Biab, Kontakt, Sampletank and lots of nice libraries, from Fluffy audio to Abbey Road drums. Check out these great contemporary Jazz Styles: www.jazzstylezz.com
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