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Writers often overlook the importance of a great first verse. A first verse can make or break your song. Here’s why:
1) Industry people don’t have a lot of time to spend on each song. If your first verse doesn’t grab them, they will turn off your song and not even listen to the rest, no matter how amazing it might be. In fact, the opening LINE of the song has to be really compelling. You want to make the listener want to hear the rest of the song based on that opening line.
2) The first verse establishes characters, context and setting. If you do a good job of that in verse one, your listener is armed with everything they need to truly “get” what your song is about. Establishing those important elements in verse one is crucial to making your song make sense.
3) The first verse is your introduction to the listener. It shows the listener your writing ability and your ability to connect them to a universal “big idea”. If you do a good job in verse one, the listener becomes your friend and they feel like you understand them. That’s the key to making fans and having hits.
4) Writing a great first verse elevates the rest of the song. If you dig deep and write something compelling in verse one, it gives you incentive to keep the rest of the song at that level. I can’t count the number of times that I have scrapped a second verse because it wasn’t as good as the first verse. It’s great to set the bar really high and to challenge yourself to stay up there above the bar. A great first verse makes settling for anything less out of the question for the rest of the song.
There you have it! Work at writing an amazing first line and first verse. Then, don’t drop the ball. You’ll be well on your way to a great song!
Marty Dodson
Set the bar high with the first verse. Then, keep that momentum going, and quite often, that's actually the harder part. Verse 2 has to be as good if not better and can not simply say the same thing again in a different way.
You can find my music at: www.herbhartley.comAdd nothing that adds nothing to the music. You can make excuses or you can make progress but not both. The magic you are looking for is in the work you are avoiding.
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So true and the same for instrumental / clasical styles. The hook has got to be right there and not repetetive.
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Songwriting
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Writers often overlook the importance of a great first verse. A first verse can make or break your song. Here’s why:
1) Industry people don’t have a lot of time to spend on each song. If your first verse doesn’t grab them, they will turn off your song and not even listen to the rest, no matter how amazing it might be. In fact, the opening LINE of the song has to be really compelling. You want to make the listener want to hear the rest of the song based on that opening line.
2) The first verse establishes characters, context and setting. If you do a good job of that in verse one, your listener is armed with everything they need to truly “get” what your song is about. Establishing those important elements in verse one is crucial to making your song make sense.
3) The first verse is your introduction to the listener. It shows the listener your writing ability and your ability to connect them to a universal “big idea”. If you do a good job in verse one, the listener becomes your friend and they feel like you understand them. That’s the key to making fans and having hits.
4) Writing a great first verse elevates the rest of the song. If you dig deep and write something compelling in verse one, it gives you incentive to keep the rest of the song at that level. I can’t count the number of times that I have scrapped a second verse because it wasn’t as good as the first verse. It’s great to set the bar really high and to challenge yourself to stay up there above the bar. A great first verse makes settling for anything less out of the question for the rest of the song.
There you have it! Work at writing an amazing first line and first verse. Then, don’t drop the ball. You’ll be well on your way to a great song!
Marty Dodson
Set the bar high with the first verse. Then, keep that momentum going, and quite often, that's actually the harder part. Verse 2 has to be as good if not better and can not simply say the same thing again in a different way. Nailed it!
Chad (Hope that makes it easier)
TEMPO TANTRUM: What a lead singer has when they can't stay in time.
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The hook has got to be right there and not repetetive. Personally, I feel you need repetition to make it memorable. Too much though, and it's kiddy sounding.
Chad (Hope that makes it easier)
TEMPO TANTRUM: What a lead singer has when they can't stay in time.
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Regarding number one above why is everything nearly always measured by the commercial viability yardstick? Surely there are many other outliers like Janice and I who could care less, who just write for our own enjoyment and are pleasantly surprised when on occasion others like it - but not driven by it. The rest of the write up sounds like good advice on how to write a good tune - enjoyed reading it. Pardon me as the ole forum curmudgeon is feeling cantankerous this evening  Bud
Our albums and singles are on Spotify, Apple Music, Amazon Music, YouTube Music, Pandora and more. If interested search on Janice Merritt. Thanks! Our Videos are here on our website.
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Regarding number one above why is everything nearly always measured by the commercial viability yardstick? Surely there are many other outliers like Janice and I who could care less, who just write for our own enjoyment and are pleasantly surprised when on occasion others like it - but not driven by it. The rest of the write up sounds like good advice on how to write a good tune - enjoyed reading it. Pardon me as the ole forum curmudgeon is feeling cantankerous this evening Bud That's fine but the same general principle still applies, doesn't it? Your song still needs to grab the listener immediately to keep them tuned in for the rest of the song. Simply remove all reference to "industry" and the balance remains true. In fact, just delete the first sentence completely and go with the remaining words. I don't know how many times I, as a non-industry person, drop into a song forum online to listen to new music, select a song, and within the first line or two of the first verse, click back out because the song just isn't compelling enough to keep me interested enough to listen all the way through.
Last edited by Guitarhacker; 01/19/17 01:43 AM.
You can find my music at: www.herbhartley.comAdd nothing that adds nothing to the music. You can make excuses or you can make progress but not both. The magic you are looking for is in the work you are avoiding.
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+1.
Good advice.
Regards,
Bob
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Regarding number one above why is everything nearly always measured by the commercial viability yardstick? Surely there are many other outliers like Janice and I who could care less, who just write for our own enjoyment and are pleasantly surprised when on occasion others like it - but not driven by it. The rest of the write up sounds like good advice on how to write a good tune - enjoyed reading it. Pardon me as the ole forum curmudgeon is feeling cantankerous this evening Bud I guess it depends on how you calibrate the "commercial viability yardstick". The reason to make music is for others to enjoy, is it not? If the song doesn't grab the listener, they may not even get to the end of it and most certainly won't listen to it again. I'd like to humbly suggest that the length of the intro is also important. If it's too long, the listener may not even get to the first verse. Just my humble opinion.
Paul
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That's fine but the same general principle still applies, doesn't it? No. Because he said they "write for our own enjoyment". If they are enjoying what they are writing then there is no other standard that matters!
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That's fine but the same general principle still applies, doesn't it? No. Because he said they "write for our own enjoyment". If they are enjoying what they are writing then there is no other standard that matters! I disagree. If you write solely for your own enjoyment, you don't post it on forums for others to listen as well. If you post for others, you certainly want them to listen past the first line or two.
You can find my music at: www.herbhartley.comAdd nothing that adds nothing to the music. You can make excuses or you can make progress but not both. The magic you are looking for is in the work you are avoiding.
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I think if an intro is too long a potential listener is unlikely to get to the first verse, no matter how good it is.
My own feeling is a songwriter should hardly have any intro at all, well maybe a quick 4 bars.
musiclover
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Dare I say it? Oh what the...here you go, industry folks recommend a short intro not to exceed around 13 seconds. Some have told me less is better. If you can start the song without any intro, that's even better. This song is a perfect example of that. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cYKVb7T1n2I And it runs for a total of 2:20 and was a huge monster hit. Or this monster of a hit: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tRnFHfI7WAQBoth are great examples of songs with no introduction. Get right into the song.
You can find my music at: www.herbhartley.comAdd nothing that adds nothing to the music. You can make excuses or you can make progress but not both. The magic you are looking for is in the work you are avoiding.
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Lol ...good one Herb, what fancy dress ball were Buck and his band off to, can you imagine nowadays wearing a setup like that? Musiclover
Last edited by musiclover; 01/20/17 09:11 AM.
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Lol ...good one Herb, what fancy dress ball were Buck and his band off to, can you imagine nowadays wearing a setup like that? Musiclover Oh trust me... you would be surprised. There's a local guy around here.... who dresses like that. Idolizes Buck Owens, traveled to see him in CA while he was still alive.... and yes, dresses like that at every gig he plays. Plays mostly very small places. He tried to hire me about 15 years ago, but I don't enjoy playing in a suit with embroidery and sequins.  As you can see, he even has a guitar painted like Buck's Red White and Blue.
You can find my music at: www.herbhartley.comAdd nothing that adds nothing to the music. You can make excuses or you can make progress but not both. The magic you are looking for is in the work you are avoiding.
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...but I don't enjoy playing in a suit with embroidery and sequins.
Agreed. No need to save it for the stage. That's every day dress if you ask me. 
Chad (Hope that makes it easier)
TEMPO TANTRUM: What a lead singer has when they can't stay in time.
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Since I'm being quoted I'll attempt to clarify my thoughts - at the high risk of further confusing things So here are some free flowing random observations: - We experiment with many genres but our heart is deeply into the blues. Commercial viability and blues? Hahahaha. Many of our favorite artists' songs have a long solo for an intro. - Sure, it's very cool when folks favorably comment on a song we post. We hugely appreciate anybody who takes their time to listen and comment. And we respect the many folks who likely don't enjoy what we are doing. But thoughts of commercial viability do not drive what we do in any shape, fashion or form. We do what we like. Period. And that's the fun part of it. Play around with ole school country, blues, reggae, rockabilly, rock, bluegrass, genre melds and just have fun. - During our many years of gigging in our bluegrass band we pretty much played the songs that folks wanted to hear and performed them within the structure that was expected. And that got stunningly boring after a while. So with BiaB we can do what we want to and if it happens to resonate with a kindred spirit that is wonderful and if doesn't we are still having fun. - Making music comprises a small amount of our time - we put together about one J&B song a month -- and enjoy our collaborations. But it's not something that we deal with or even think about on a daily basis. Like our love of mountain biking and hiking music is just one of the fun factors of our life. Write on demand, sweat viability, worry about acceptance? No way. Not for us. But in no way do we disparage those who take and are successful with other approaches. - FWIW I would never kill a song because the intro is too long or the lyric doesn't immediately "hook" me. We love the human voice - it's our favorite instrument. We want to listen to it and see if it has the most important aspect to us... soul. If that element is there we can live with a mundane lyric. Now soul and a killer lyric...oh yeah! All with the usual old guy two cents worth. Bud
Our albums and singles are on Spotify, Apple Music, Amazon Music, YouTube Music, Pandora and more. If interested search on Janice Merritt. Thanks! Our Videos are here on our website.
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Bud and Herb, I see both of your points. I guess the bottom line is know what YOU want; then do what you need to get there. I come from a rather fragmented background. I double majored in school in music and business. The business people thought I was so liberal in my thinking because it wasn't all about money. They music school thought I was so conservative and all about the money. It was interesting to say the least. What I got out of it was a fantastic experience that opened my eyes to both sides. I really went in with an open mind. So I'm very thankful you are both on this forum. You both contribute so much...and in many ways are a reminder for me of those days. Not that the two of you represent those mindsets; but you always seem to spur a comment that gets me thinking. Me thinking...dangerous? Maybe. I will also say, I have heard some of THE WORST commercial and non-commercial songs EVER. I am trying very hard not to write those anymore Enjoy the weekend!
Chad (Hope that makes it easier)
TEMPO TANTRUM: What a lead singer has when they can't stay in time.
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I've audited the Berklee Intro to Songwriting course a couple of times. Instructor is Pat Pattison. I have no idea if he has any hits or not. I do know I enjoyed the class and feel like I have more tools for writing lyrics after taking the class a couple of times. Tools that I have used and received nice comments from listeners. Pat uses a concept he calls 'The Boxes', where the thought process is that you want to construct the song in 3 or so 'boxes' of increasing size from an idea perspective, with the 1st box being a somewhat small, maybe slightly vague idea. The 2nd box idea should be expanded from the first, so that the first box fits inside of the 2nd one. The 3rd box is the big payoff idea, that encapsulates both the first two boxes. You don't want to start off with that 3rd box, otherwise you give your listener nothing but smaller ideas as you progress through the song. I've used this technique the past couple years in the February Album Writing Month challenge, where the challenge is to write 14 songs in the month of February. Last year, using that 'boxes' technique, I wrote what I think was one of my best songs, from a lyrics perspective. I had the idea of the song after hearing a reading of an excerpt of one of C.S. Lewis' books. The song is called 'Tin Soldier'. You can have a listen to it here - see if you think it follows The Boxes kind of a flow. Since this was one of 14 songs in the month, I lived with some of the vocal inconsistencies in level over the length of the song. A gentleman from the UK composed most of the music. First time someone wrote music to my lyrics upon request. https://soundcloud.com/rockstar_not/scott-lake-and-fort-elmfield-tin-soldier
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By the way, the 'How Sound' podcast has great ideas about how to present ideas in a radio story, and the various methods listed in this particular episode can work great as how to approach a first verse. http://transom.org/2016/mark-get-set-start-story/There are several other useful podcasts in that series. Here's one that says your story that you unfold should follow the shape of a lower case letter 'e' - it actually makes sense, and some of the best comedians seem to use this method, when they return to a prior punchline, or setup for a punchline, far into their routine. It's that repetition thing, but from a different context. http://transom.org/2016/story-structure-e/This coming February (in just over a week), I'm going to give some of these different song story structure ideas a try. Why not join me in February Album Writing Month, and put the tips you've read in this thread to practice? One thing I firmly believe is that songwriting takes disciplined practice, just like any other creative endeavor. Now and then you'll find something that is uniquely your 'voice' that also connects with others.
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Thank you Herb for starting this thread. I believe I am in the group that plays for mostly personal enjoyment. I purchased BIAB back in 2011 just so I had something to make the music more interesting so I would not lose interest.
I watched things in the user forum for about two years before posting anything personal. The mixing and songwriting is something I had never done before.
I have learned allot from these forums, especially the user forum on songwriting and mixing as the willingness of people like yourself and the other members to comment and make suggestions on how to improve what I had posted. I in turn like to listen to all the songs that are posted and comment on whether I liked the song.
There are some very serious musicians that I would categorize as excellent professional level vocalists, song writers and players and am surprised as to why I am not seeing them on the Grammy Awards TV show.
When I start a song I pick a key, try to find a different time signature or style and add some chords. I have no idea what will I end up with..
I have posted some things that I thought were terrible and users through there kindness responded favorably. I have also posted some things that I thought were excellent and the response was not as expected.
I guess the point of this long diatribe is I don't take what I do very seriously other that I love the clean sound of guitar through an amplifier. Getting to hear some pretty cool song and lyrics has pretty ok too..
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