PG Music Home Forums General Discussion Beginners Forum BIAB's GUI

I have never in my decades of using and writing software seen a more confusing, disorganized, and cluttered user interface than Band in a Box, and never experienced a greater need for good tutorials. Please, fire the GUI department and start over. Start with mashing together Chordpulse and the Digitech Trio (but in software) -- each is stupidly easy to use. Complexity can be added in a better way than just cramming another button on the front page.

Welcome to the forums.

It sounds like you are in the mode that shows maximum commands and controls. If you have the Windows 2017 version, have you tried switching to the alternative full screen mode? This was designed to minimise the display of on-screen options and is obtained by clicking where I've highlighted on the below image (the shortcut is CTRL+T).

Also, if you're looking for tutorials, PG Music have a Youtube page at the below URL...

https://www.youtube.com/user/pgmusicinc

And, on-site they have videos organised into Beginners, Intermediate and Advanced at...

http://www.pgmusic.com/videos.bbwin.htm

If you are after Mac videos, there's a tab at the top of the Window's video page that can be selected.

All the best,
Noel

Thanks for the reply. I have tried to use BIAB in the simplified mode but it doesn't help in ~how to use this thing~. The videos on pgmusic.com are several years out of date and mostly worthless to a new user. Those on the youtube channel are mostly showcasing new features, testimonials, advanced features, or demonstrations of new realtracks, not how to use the product.

Everyone says BIAB does a million things and it's all great. I'm just going to have to take their word for it. My problem is not the icons or the color scheme or even the 75 buttons. It's that there is no intuitive way to navigate the software. Reorganizing the toolbar or adding a dozen more options to a pulldown menu is just nibbling at the edges. I shouldn't have to already be an expert to use this.

I spent a couple hundred dollars on this software but I can't really use it. Unfortunately it's more than 30 days since I bought it so I can't return it. I would pay the same amount for a product with a fraction of the features but a great user interface.

If GarageBand had a way to prescribe the chord progression and add loops that follow the chord progression I would switch to Mac. Because I see the potential of what BIAB can be but they're just shooting themselves in the foot by ignoring the usability of their product.

I appreciate that at first glance, this might seem to be the case. The reason that the older videos are still there is because the aspect of BIAB that they are detailing has not been changed. When program operations change, PG Music remove those videos that are no longer relevant.

There is certainly a learning curve associated with coming to grips with BIAB. That said, the basic approach to getting a song happening is straightforward.

Can I help in some way to get things happening for you? What would you like to achieve?

After being on these forums for a number of years, there are a couple of things that I've noticed that seem to cause huge hurdles for those starting out and are best avoided in the early stages of learning the software. These hurdles are...

HURDLE 1: Thinking of BIAB's chord grid in terms of a piece of sheet music.

Rather than the above, it's better to think of BIAB as a band performance that plays from beginning to end and enter the chords accordingly. Initially, don't try to create repeats and codas (etc.). Simply enter the chords as they would be played in a live setting, start to finish.

Once this starts to make sense, then, if you want, try using repeats, codas, etc. Personally, I prefer using BIAB without these because it gives me much more control over the arrangement. I always work with the linear format.

HURDLE 2: Trying to achieve advanced techniques without first developing an understanding of how BIAB is designed.

Initially, the best approach is...

a) Type in chords.

b) Save the file so that if something unexpected happens it's easy to get back the chord sheet.

c) Select a style to play your chord sheet.

d) Press Generate/Play.

Hope this helps.

Regards,
Noel

P.S. If you want to hear how BIAB can sound, have a listen to some of my songs in my signature.

Also, the Users Showcase contains links to the work of many BIAB enthusiasts.

Hi texasprenegade,

Noel has generously provided you with a significant amount of information (and plenty of his own time). BiaB has some extremely complex functions. It also allows you to create and play a song in only a few seconds.

The different groups of functions all have titles and are laid out in an organized, intuitive manner.

Most controls feature pop-up hints that guide you through the operations and functionality.

Like most new things, there is a learning curve. I have a saying that applies to most things: "Everything is easy when you know how". If you are able, please try to be a little more patient and take your time learning the basics. I'm sure it will pay off in the long run.

Welcome also to the forum. Supported by fellow users.

Texasprenegade -



I'm pretty sure they'll get right on firing the president of the company on down, hiring new staff, and completely rewriting the software to suit your expectations. Maybe they'll be done in a week or so, and it will look just like Chordpulse mashed up with Digitech Trio, as I'm sure that's exactly what they originally intended to do when the released BIAB a few decades ago, but just never got there.

Or maybe, take the time to learn the software, ask questions on the forum, and learn how it works. There are thousands and thousands and thousands of folks making a lot of good music using BIAB.

But truly, welcome to the forum; we users are happy to help you out (including me, even though I know I started out kind of snarky), but you've got to let us know what you aren't able to do with the software. We may not know it all, but we can generally get you pointed in the right direction.

Noel and Trevor have already started. Let us know what you are having problems with and we can help you work through it.

Exactly. We read lots of criticism, but not a single statement about what the O/P had actually attempted to do but was unable to achieve. Was it to 'enter chords?', 'print notation?', 'select a style?'. Work with us, and we'll work with you .

Hi Texasprenegade,

I'm new to using BIAB only got it this year and I feel your frustrations. I too had mental breakdowns and anger management meetings due to this this complicated programme.

If it wasn't for the support of the guys on these forums I think I would have thrown the towel in a week aftyer I bought it!

I am not the brightest of buttons in the box when it comes to this type of music making stuff nor computer litereate but I persevered.
I gained more inspiration when heard the songs otheres were producing and knew that BIAB/RB does have the quality. SO I continued to blunder about and ask a few questions on these forums.

My first step to producing something was to do someting simple (right up my street)!
Perhaps don't be in a rush to start on your favourite song you've written.
Make a simple chord progression- Take it into RB convert it into WAV import it into your DAW and make a few edits, chops, splits add vocals and any vst's gitar breaks etc etc.

The next step will be learning about the drum stops, regenerate solos on any instrument.
Be patient and things will happen. If I can make headway, believe me anyone can!
I only use a few of the buttons out of the 75 you counted so don't despair.

The support you will find on here is second to none in my opinion, great advice and support and all this is free of charge!
Stick with it
All the best
Paul

"a more confusing, disorganized, and cluttered user interface than Band in a Box"
That sounds about right, I appreciate your input from someone who is new to Biab, this gives the developers information to improve Biab.

Digitech Trio that uses Biab.
Chordpulse is good.

There is an easy solution, look for an icon called RealBand if you are not on a Mac.
Unless you are writing songs from scratch and need to change things around quickly, RealBand will do things easier as you can see what you are doing as the tracks are laid out in front of you.
Check out www.realband.org they have a lot of info and videos.

You can also use RealBand with ReWire generating up tracks to existing tracks in the DAW http://www.pgmusic.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=371691

<<< I have tried to use BIAB in the simplified mode but it doesn't help in ~how to use this thing~. >>>

Here is BIAB in simplified mode: (Taken From Noel's post)


a) Type in chords.

b) Save the file so that if something unexpected happens it's easy to get back the chord sheet. (optional unless you are working on a serious project)

c) Select a style to play your chord sheet.

d) Press Generate/Play.


Here is BIAB in intermediate mode:

a) Type in chords.

b) Save the file so that if something unexpected happens it's easy to get back the chord sheet.

c) Select a style to play your chord sheet.

d) Press Generate/Play.


Here is BIAB in its most advanced mode:


a) Type in chords.

b) Save the file so that if something unexpected happens it's easy to get back the chord sheet.

c) Select a style to play your chord sheet.

d) Press Generate/Play.

These steps are also the same for:

BIAB in singer/songwriter mode:
BIAB in Classical composition mode:
BIAB in backing tracks mode:
BIAB in practice guitar, piano, sax, trumpet, et al mode:
BIAB in make my own Karaoke mode:
BIAB in create a movie soundtrack mode:
BIAB in print charts for the band mode:
BIAB in create my own CD mode:

and any other purpose you want to use BIAB to create music for.

Everything you do that follows these steps are features that you pick and choose to achieve end results for your music output. Every version of BIAB back to the days of DOS have provided the instructions to << enter your chord progression, select a style, press play >>

Mike posted while I was composing. He is correct.

Am I the only long-term user who can see the problem through the eyes of a beginner?

Nowhere does Texasprenegade say that he/she cannot work out how to do something with BIAB but all the resposes concentrate on being patient in learning how to use the software. This happens every time a newcomer critisizes the GUI. No-one is prepared to recognise the importance of how the GUI looks when you first see it. Yes, there are lots of offers to help but really everyone blaims the victim by telling them to try harder.

It's like someone critisizing the layout of a car's interior controls as being confusing only to be told "don't worry, you will get used to it, just persevere to learn them" Meanwhile sales of the new car are tanking and you can bet that the next model will have corrected the layout even if the functionality is no different. My 2014 Ford Escape has a terrible GPS GUI, so much so that I use my 10 year old Garmin mounted on the windshield. Ford paid attention to the comments and the 2016 version was a big improvement.

Sooner or later PG will start paying attention to beginner's comments instead of relying on the opinions of long-term users who have passed through the "right of passage" and are comfortable with the GUI. Yes, I know PG recently introduced an optional simplified GUI but it still needs a completely fresh approach. Personally, I have stayed with the previous version.

Tony

Tony, you are not the only one.

When I taught programming, part of the test of my students' projects was what we called the 'any idiot' test. We would find an idiot, defined as the next unknown person walking down the hall, and ask them to react to the program. Observe, revise, retest.

Right after BIAB version 2017 was released, many of the active beta testers on the site paid particularly close attention to the posts by newcomers (as well as newly-confused experienced users). We passed on extensive observations to PG Music. It is an ongoing process.

We had asked for a streamlining of the GUI, and we got it. The next step would seem to me to be a revision of the Menu system and a thorough review of the Help system. But what do I know?

Matt, I did the same thing when writing macros for Lotus 123 and Excel as well as Standard Operating Procedures. The difference is that I call it the Gorilla Test.

texasprenegade, welcome. You are not the first one to point out the GUI. In fact there have been many requests to change it over the years. The latest 2017 GUI is much better than the older GUI , IMHO, but I can see where both can be very confusing for a new comer. Heck I'm an old user and sometimes I get lost trying to figure something out.

You are right about the GUI but so are those that were trying to help. The GUI will not change overnight so you have to do the changing. Put your GUI suggestions in the wish forum but keep on trying to learn the program. It does have a lot to offer and in fact I probably use less then 10% of what is available.

Someone else suggested this, but I'm going to suggest it too.
Try Realband. It does 'most' of what BiaB does (and more than most users need) but in a different way. You may or may not like it better. If you have a recent version of BiaB then Realband was included for free. Nothing to lose.

If you are used to a regular DAW, Realband works much more like that.
It's not just like Protools or Reaper or Audition, it's still different, so some learning curve applies. For quite a few people I know, all the click-paths just make more sense for what they want to do.
This is why I use Realband more than most users; it works more like I 'expect' music software to work. So I get more done with less frustration or hunting.

As far as looks though, I really wish we could design our own skins. I am no good at graphics, but I work every day with people that do app designs/graphics/builds. It pains me to know how much better it could 'appear' (and probably flow).

I fail to see how something with the complexities and significant features that BiaB offers is supposed to just 'look' simple.

As the song goes: 'Get a little dirt on your hands'. No pain, no gain.

You described yourself as a software writer. Please feel free to illustrate a mock-up of exactly how the interface should appear.

Please describe how the new 2017 interface is 'confusing', 'disorganized' and 'cluttered'.

Then I'll understand the problem you are experiencing a little more. Thanks.

"Start with mashing together Chordpulse and the Digitech Trio..."

This is the simplest I can get it, similar to Chorpulse.

Thanks Pipeline.

I'm still looking forward to texasprenegade's response to the items he/she described.

(warning: it's long)
OK, I take all your points and agree with most of you. But to explain, my background is in tech, I write software including user interfaces (though for the web), and have spent my entire career learning new and complicated software (think Autocad, finite element CFD models, etc.). I am not an inexperienced user of complicated software. And I am more than willing to give the benefit of the doubt when it comes to design. I know how hard it is to cram so much functionality into such little space. And I'm not expecting to grok the UI immediately, but I do know some of the components that make a good design.

For me, a good design is all about functionality. I couldn't care less about the color scheme, or skins, or big gaudy buttons. I would love to see a user interface study to see how beginners approach the software, as well as how the veterans use it. I'd be willing to bet most people use the same 10% of the capabilities. The rest should be tucked away--the experts will find the extra stuff, the rest won't even see it. I believe the user interface should get you close to what you want to do and well-organized examples and tutorials should do the rest. This user guide doesn't do any of that, except sort of explain the buttons, but without any context. And though forums are extremely helpful, they shouldn't be necessary except for some of the more esoteric functions.

In general, I believe that the more trial and error one needs to do, the worse the user interface. I've had to do a lot of trial and error and reading forum posts to get what little progress I've achieved.

Speaking of achievements, I am indeed making progress. I'll give BIAB credit: On the first day I was able to do something, even before Charlie Fogle suggested:
a) Type in chords.
b) Save the file so that if something unexpected happens it's easy to get back the chord sheet.
c) Select a style to play your chord sheet.
d) Press Generate/Play.

So again, I'll give credit. But after that, it's trial and error time. The stylepicker gives me the most grief. Even sorting columns doesn't seem to work, but does something random. And on one of the screens there's no "OK" button, so it's hard to undo something you've clicked. That's not intuitive. And what's that row of "Master Bass Guitar1 Drums ..." with radio buttons near the top? It changes, but it took me a while to figure out why. And how does it relate to the mixer thing on the right? And the mixer has something with [None][None][None][None] on it. You gotta admit, that doesn't really help anyone. Why not leave it blank? All that extra information is confusing and we newbies don't know what's important and what we can ignore. And, being a newbie, let's say I picked a style but want to do something different with drums. Should I click the big button that says "Drums"? I guess not, but the interface makes it confusing. Same with guitar. I know it's obvious to you all, but put yourself in the newbie shoes: if I want to do something related to guitar, shouldn't I click the guitar button?

Those are just a couple examples. I know I'm not alone in my experience--I've read dozens of posts saying the same thing, just not with the p*ss and vinegar that I did. My bad. I've calmed down now and have been jamming to my 12 bar blues backing track with RealTracks (I think) and am now trying to record my sick guitar solos over it (sick, if you like eighth notes).

And I don't think I showed any unappreciation for the efforts to help beginners. I do appreciate it and so do hundred of others. The first nice attempts pointed me to some videos that I found inadequate. I'm on the other side, too, as I am a sorta-veteran on another forum where I help newbies like me, so I understand when frustrated wankers like me start complaining about how everything is so haaaarrrrdddd.

I'm making progress and will continue to do so, little by little. I just think the UI gets in the way of using the software, rather than facilitating.

And @VideoTrack, I'm a guy but I appreciate you covering all bases

It can be done, but it's not easy. Look at Photoshop, or GarageBand.

In UI design, clutter is counter-productive.

This is back in 2008 "band in a box GUI"
http://www.pgmusic.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=5533





Biab was designed and programed by musicians not GUI artist, it's all been said, mentioned, complained, pleaded about for years n years n years.
If you go through that post you will see the GUI Saga, PG was approached by Universal to make a movie about it.
It's just how it is, you just need to persevere with Biab or use RealBand.
I purchased RapidComposer some time back and gave up on it as it was too hard to work out, but I went back to it and learned a bit more and found out how good it is, my perseverance paid off.

Yes, that valid concern was in 2008 and the GUI has changed since then. It's not the same GUI now. That's not to say that further improvements are not suggested, but to be fair, it's a very different interface in 2017 than what it was in 2008.

And I would highly suggest reading the user manual (it's a PDF file). While it could also be better, there is a lot of information there about how the program works, how it is laid out, and what you can do.

BIAB is many things to many people and the company has accommodated much of that (sometimes to the chagrin of folks who only want it to do what they want to do with it, which of course would be much tot he chagrin of those who want it to do something different, ad infinitum).

But ask questions here. No one bites anyone's head off (unless the question is presented rudely), and lots of folks jump in and try to help. It's not instantaneous, as we are all just users and many have day jobs and are away from their music PC's, but help will come.

And even if the videos are somewhat dated, the concepts are all there. A menu item may have moved to a different place in the newer versions than what you see in the video, but it's still there. Just ask and you'll get pointed in the right direction.

And because of all it does, there is a learning curve. Think of it more like picking up an instrument and trying to learn it. Because in a lot of ways, BIAB is an instrument (of a whole band, if you will). It just takes a little time to become proficient, and then once you do, you'll find you can really do a lot musically with it.

Yes, you can do a lot in BiaB, but not intuitively.
Some of the OP's points are valid to me also, and we are both in a career that deals with this sort of thing.
There are others here as well.
The point is; for a BEGINNER a lot of how BiaB works is confusing and frustrating. There is room for improvement.

However I'll respectfully disagree with his Photoshop example of simplicity.
It took me about as much time to understand that interface as it did BiaB.
I do not consider PS intuitive at all.
Powerful; yes
/kinda like BiaB, both powerful but both took me a while to get used to
//PS is prettier, I'll give it that .. but it's a graphics program so it better be <grin>

The initial complaint is that BiaB is hard to use for a beginner. That's a valid complaint, and something that we are working to improve. I don't agree that the cause of this is some kind of GUI issue.

For example, the original poster mentions his first GUI issue that he doesn't like "Even sorting [stylpicker] columns doesn't seem to work".

That wouldn't be a GUI issue to begin with, but in fact that function does work. It's just he is not aware that is is going to (by default) list RealStyles first, and then MIDI styles. And that this is a setting in the StylePicker-Options dialog.

What isn't needed is a remake of the GUI. This has been done and well received. What is needed is a series of video tutorials to explain how to use the software. Most people have no trouble doing the basics, but if you delve deeper, Band-in-a-Box can do many other things.

So anyway, we are planning a series of video tutorials to explain various aspects of the programs. One of which would be the StylePicker, where we show you why sorting columns will still list RealStyles first, and then the older MIDI styles. (because most people use RealStyles and don't want to see MIDI styles), and how this is configurable.

I agree. I have 5,327 styles and that is quite a formidable task to wade through at first glance. He's right that maybe a bit more information and guidance necessary to narrow the choices. Fortunately, there is already a quick solution available to address his particular issue with the Style Picker.

Peter Gannon states: "What isn't needed is a remake of the GUI. This has been done and well received. What is needed is a series of video tutorials to explain how to use the software. Most people have no trouble doing the basics, but if you delve deeper, Band-in-a-Box can do many other things. "

That's a great answer. I suggest that while we wait on a series of video tutorials to explain how to use the software, that you repost a video you made sometime back where you demonstrated using the Style Picker to make a cover of "Hotel California". (Post Your Own Tips and Ticks Thread)

You demonstrated how quickly and easily you located an accurate backing track using the << Play over your chord progression>> option after filtering your search. Your video was a response to a somewhat similar complaint from a user who was having navigation difficulties.

That video is very enlightening and useful and immediately helpful to texasprenegade.

Charlie

That is an excellent answer to many of the problems beginners and older users like myself would benefit. I hope these videos start with the bare basics for beginners but also will run into the more advance uses of BiaB. I know there are things in BiaB that I haven't looked at yet videos are the best way for me the learn.

Charlie,

Yes, that post is here
http://www.pgmusic.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=372603&Searchpage=1&Main=53490&Words=Hotel+California+Brent+&Search=true#Post372603

That thread was similar to this one, in that someone was complaining that the stylepicker made it hard to find a song in the style of Hotel California. Others disagreed in the thread, and I described how I spent about 5 minutes to find the style I wanted and type in some chords to end up with a song with different chords but similar style. Everything including the guitar solo came from biab.
https://www.dropbox.com/s/yttthubdj7lorzi/PopBalladDemo-2.m4a?dl=0

Thanks for posting the thread again Dr. Gannon. That particular demonstration was an eye opener for me and has contributed a lot to increasing the fun factor I get from BIAB.


Charlie

I appreciate the helpful discussion and I guess we'll just have to agree to disagree.

But what I will say is this: I've learned very complicated software before in my field and at first had lots of trouble navigating their complexity. After I get some help, whether through a tutorial or my own perseverance, I look back and say, "Now I see why the UI was designed that way and it makes sense. It's hard, but this was a good way to design it." So I don't expect instant gratification or complete knowledge of the UI at first glance, but am able to recognize how a UI can help me do what I want with the software. When I figure out something new in BIAB, I look back and say, "That took a lot of work and the UI didn't really help me much and in some cases got in my way. Next time I'll just have to memorize the steps I took."

That's my experience with two different software, both very complex and approached with an open mind and the willingness to work hard at understanding, yet resulting in very different conclusions. Take it for what it's worth, but that's my experience and unfortunately I don't think we're going to see eye to eye on this.

I understand, no problem in agreeing to disagree. Myself and many others happily share our knowledge any time we can help and hope you will give us the opportunity if the need arises.

I will say that you have never actually articulated to us what you can't do with BIAB. Completing the steps to input chords and generate a song is pretty much as complicated as it gets. Midi setup and vst's can be troublesome but are only issues if that is an area you want to use to enhance the sound quality, dynamics or add an effect to a song. Notation can be a mystery but moreso because one needs to understand notation. Everything beyond the point of generating a song are methods, techniques or procedures to make your tracks sound better, be more authentic to an original piece or to function in practice and educational aspects. In other words, they are not necessary to navigate BIAB.

New users of BIAB/RB that join the forum are fresh eyes and ears to forum members and PGMusic. We welcome your insight, criticisms and suggestions. Hopefully, disagreeing with you or you disagreeing with us will not discourage your participation.

Charlie

I added this on as another Chapter here: http://www.pgmusic.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=5533

Interesting that the two examples you cite are toys compared to BIAB.

Chordpulse? Seriously?

No one here will tell you to RTFM before calling for a complete re-write of the program. They are too nice. I will. It's worth it.


Regards,


Bob

Bob,

The problem with your "RTFM" response is the 2017 Band-in-a-Box user manual is 669 pages in length. Also, the inclusion of a revised manual in each of the eight 2017 BiaB patches released so far this year further complicates matters.

I agree the manual is a valuable, but much ignored, learning resource but very few people have time to learn a 669 page manual.

I have to agree. All of the information is beneficial. However there needs to be possibly at least two levels of manuals:
1: Most Users - Fundamental settings to get you going and perform typical functions.
2: Experts - Under the Hood. The Nuts and Bolts that hold it all together, how it works, and why.

John Ford said the same thing , albeit with more finesse.

This GUI debate is getting tedious.


Is the UI clunky? Yep.

Is it buggy sometimes? Yep.

Consider this:

There are no other programs that can do what this one can. Period.




“The problem with your "RTFM" response is the 2017 Band-in-a-Box user manual is 669 pages in length. Also, the inclusion of a revised manual in each of the eight 2017 BiaB patches released so far this year further complicates matters.

I agree the manual is a valuable, but much ignored, learning resource but very few people have time to learn a 669 page manual.”




So, you've spent several hundred dollars on a very complex program, and you don't “have time” to crack a manual? I love manuals. You can learn how to use stuff with them.



Regards,


Bob

I would rather watch a movie than read a book, you do an "RTFM" as a last resort, most people these days would rather watch a video.

"PG was approached by Universal to make a movie about it."
that was a joke, but I think it is really what it needs, a Movie, as in long, covering all aspects like an up to date Video Manual without having to go to Groove3 and and other Tutorials.

"The videos on pgmusic.com are several years out of date and mostly worthless to a new user."

"The first nice attempts pointed me to some videos that I found inadequate."

"What is needed is a series of video tutorials to explain how to use the software. Most people have no trouble doing the basics, but if you delve deeper, Band-in-a-Box can do many other things."

A local video manual rather than video help buttons linked to old youtube videos, I have these below but the are all old ones.

I would sit down and make them but I don't have any where near enough musical knowledge or about all the ins n outs of BB.

You can just use mp4 h264 low bitrate/framerate and they are not much bigger than an audio file.

I don't think we disagree, I just sometimes enjoy having the conversation.

Sincerely,

Jim

Right and this is why society has turned into a bunch of 30 second, no scratch that, 15 second soundbite idiots with the attention span of a 2 year old.

Doctors don't become doctors by watching videos. Engineers don't become engineers by watching videos. I didn't become a tax expert by watching stupid videos. It takes study, good writing skills and experience. EXPERIENCE.

Experience, what a concept.

This is a music program. Anybody here think music is SIMPLE? Is it EASY? Hell no. Music is one of the most complex things there is. Software that can approach pro level quality is by it's very nature extremely complex. There are college degrees in music production. Those courses are all about working with software because that's what every studio in the world uses. Software, software and more software. You want complex, try Pro Tools, Cubase, Sonar. Biab by contrast is quite simple compared to those.

Pipeline you seem to be an expert with a whole range of high end music software. Just how long have you been doing this? How long did it take you to be come this proficient? What is your background that allowed you to become so proficient with both computers and all this music software?

It ain't easy and watching some video tutorials is a decent start to get you going but they won't make you an expert. Reading 619 pages of the manual is what's needed for that. And lots of experience. Did I say that word again? Why, yes I did. Experience.

Forget the GUI and start making some music. When you're stuck post it here and somebody will show you how it's done. .

In the time it's taken for some of you guys but especially the OP, to write this huge gripefest about the GUI you could have created 10 songs and posted questions asking how to make them better.

Bob

Huh? Band In A Box has a manual?

Re: videos. If I ask a colleague to help me with software, the most effective way is to watch him do it while he explains what he's doing. That's all a video is. Some prefer that method of learning, not because they have short attention spans but because it's very effective. The get off my lawn comments about the kids these days are irrelevant.

I've read TFM. It doesn't help much. I am putting in the time and don't expect instant gratification. But I've put in enough time to form an opinion about the UI from a beginner's perspective--yes, I'm entitled to an opinion on the UI. Eventually I am learning to do things on my own. But just because I can eventually figure stuff out doesn't mean the UI couldn't be much much better. My complaints are not about doing one specific thing or another. The problem is it takes much longer to figure out than it should and I have to rely on trial and error.

Nobody is saying a complicated program has to be easy at first glance. Examples I gave are those that paid attention to its design for functionality's sake, not because they look pretty.

The gripes about the software have nothing to do with music or music education or anything like that. Learning music theory and learning to use this software have nothing to do with each other. The opinions are all about the functionality of the user interface. A UI is ~supposed~ to help the user, but in my opinion the UI does a terrible job of it. Note I'm not criticizing the capabilities of BIAB at all, just the UI.

Y'all don't have to agree with me. If you like the UI and think it makes sense, that's super. These are my opinions on the UI and the UI only, not the capabilities or complexity of the software.

I'm right there with you, some users come here with problems they find and say that things need to be improved, but are shot down, put off and never return, others stick around and make these things happen, by nagging, pleading, suggesting new ways, ideas to do things to make BB/RB better.

As said before you bring valuable information from a new user's perspective.
Don't stop, just keep posting ideas and ways you think it can be improved !

It's gone from this,:


To this,:


Then to this that needs your input: ???

Gotta admit, that made me laugh.

Love it! I remember I used to keep a copy of the BIAB manual by my bedside - 20 years ago. It was apparently much smaller then.

I kept it in the room directly across from the bathroom ..
sorry, just sayin'