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Joined: Mar 2007
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I'm new to PT Pro Audio. I have a Yamaha keyboard connected to my computer via a Tascam US 122. I'm using a standard 1/4 jack from the Yamaha Headphone jack into the Tascam and the Tascam uses USB to the computer. I've laid down a drum track and everything is fine. The problem occurs when I then lay down a piano track next. When I listen to it, it starts off fine, but then the piano gets off sync. I understand their are latency issues with MIDI but in this case, I'm not using MIDI. Any suggestions?
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Joined: Dec 2007
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I'm not familiar with PT, but there could still be problems with latency - MIDI is not the only technology that takes time to process data, or in this case, signals.
Of course, someone more familiar with the devices you have may be able to give a more pertinent answer.
Another point, while I've seen it mentioned here quite a bit, the headphone jack is probably not the best signal source - better to use a line out if possible. Normally a headphone jack is set up to drive headphones:
a) 32 Ohm impedance rather than 600 Ohm or 47k,
b) NOT line level (1v peak to peak IIRC)
c) Also IIRC, there is some equalisation curve applied to make up for (headphone) speaker response deficiencies (a bit like the old RIAA curve for vinyl - this was done during recording and undone in you'r amp's pre-amp stage)
Of course, if you don't have a line out, you use what you got...
Last edited by Lawrie; 01/12/08 08:20 PM.
--=-- My credo: If it's worth doing, it's worth overdoing - just ask my missus, she'll tell ya  --=--You're only paranoid if you're wrong!
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Joined: May 2000
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Headphone output can safely drive a line input.
Rule of thumb, if the impedence of the input is higher than the impedence of the output in audio work, it is not a problem. Ohm's law.
This is likely not a latency problem but a sync problem.
Revisit the Preferences->Audio in PT and try things. If using MME drivers, try switching to ASIO, just to see what happens.
MME drivers, use the automatic button to fill in the stuff, "Get from Soundcard".
Try different settings for audio sync.
I don't know the 122, but does it have a Direct Monitoring capability in its control panel somewhere? May just be that you are monitoring at the Output when recording.
HTH,
--Mac
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Quote:
Rule of thumb, if the impedence of the input is higher than the impedence of the output in audio work, it is not a problem. Ohm's law.
True, but not ideal - an impedance mismatch is an impedance mismatch - but this one is not worth arguing over - in most cases there are probably worse problems in the signal path.
Lawrie's $0.02 AUD
--=-- My credo: If it's worth doing, it's worth overdoing - just ask my missus, she'll tell ya --=--You're only paranoid if you're wrong!
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I don't want to argue, actually there is no argument here, I just want to set the record straight.
Impedance mismatch when the input is higher impedance than the output is only a power loss.
Which is a good thing in this case.
Let's take the worst case of a headphone amp output that is designed for 8 ohm impedance cans. (Not typicaly today, where the output is going to be typically higher, from about 32 ohms to maybe 100, but using worst case will show how negligible the power loss really is).
Ohm's law demonstrates that the 8 ohm impedance amplifier jacked into a 10Kohm impedence Line Input will have to develop less voltage across the load. And therefore less power.
But because the load impedence is HIGHER than the output impedance of the Audio Amplifier, there will be no circuit loading of the amplifier and thus no change in frequency response or ability to recreate high or low frequencies.
This is only true at Audio frequencies, if we were talking RF frequencies then the power transfer situation as well as the frequency situation would prove problematic.
BTW this is a basic rule of audio connection taught in many of today's recording schools. "You can always safely introduce a Low Impedance output into a High Impedence input, but not the other way around."
Confusion comes in when people confuse the impedence of nonpowered outputs like mics or guitars. Even then, the Low Impedence passive device can indeed feed a High Impedence input without frequency degradation, but you might not have enough amplitude there to drive the input well enough. That is a signal voltage issue that the headphone amp won't have problems dealing with.
--Mac
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G'day Mac, this is kinda fun  Also in the interests of keeping the record straight... Quote:
Impedance mismatch when the input is higher impedance than the output is only a power loss.
Actually, due to capacitive and inductive effects in the surrounding components including the leads etc., you also get reflections. Dectable with a CRO but not really audible - Chorus and echo effects would be far greater delays - and as you say, increased frequency exaggerates things. Neglible at audio - possibly devastating at RF.
Quote:
Let's take the worst case of a headphone amp output that is designed for 8 ohm impedance cans. (Not typicaly today, where the output is going to be typically higher, from about 32 ohms to maybe 100, but using worst case will show how negligible the power loss really is).
Ohm's law demonstrates that the 8 ohm impedance amplifier jacked into a 10Kohm impedence Line Input will have to develop less voltage across the load. And therefore less power.
Actually, it's primarily a parallel circuit, voltage remains the same, current is reduced - end result, power is also still reduced... (P=VI). I said "primarily parallel" 'cos leads etc. also have series resistance as well as reactance but this is usually negligible in relation the overall impedances in question.
I apologise Mac, I tend to be a bit pedantic at times - unreasonably so when it's an issue that doesn't really matter. For all practical purposes in a purely audio environment you are quite correct, but my background includes telecommunications where it just HAD to be right, no matter what, 'cos everything ended up in carrier systems where you were constantly moving audio streams into and out of RF channels in the carrier systems. Reflections and power losses were a HUGE no-no. ANY kind of echo was most unwelcome...
Very glad I ain't in it anymore...
--=-- My credo: If it's worth doing, it's worth overdoing - just ask my missus, she'll tell ya --=--You're only paranoid if you're wrong!
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My background covers the whole gambut from DC to Daylight, didn't start out that way, just what happened over time and the ever-changing work environment that our generation must be able to deal with.
Having started out in audio, though, recording and broadcast studios, I all too soon found out how much murder we get away with in the audio region a few decades back when having to deal with RF design seriously. Heh.
Then came bouts with the Telco stuff, followed by some rather sincere broadcast TV design work, triaxial repeaters for cameras, stuff that is now outdated analog anyway (grin) and after that came the last decade or so, digitization of radar in just about all the environments as it ended up. Now there's a place where you'd better match your impedances.
But reflections, all that jazz, aren't going to be a problem in an unbalanced run of a few feet from an earphone amp output to a Line Input on a soundcard or mixerboard and today's twenty to twenty, man. I've driven broadcast audio lines with the speaker outputs on TLO solid state poweramps just fine.
Peace.
--Mac
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Joined: Jul 2007
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Er, quite fascinating stuff Mac, Lawrie, but none of that is going to solve RanchWilder’s sync problem!
For what it’s worth, I had exactly the same phenomenon.
I’d record a click track but then find that a second audio track I’d recorded while listening to it was out of sync (way out of sync after 90 secs).
I still have a huge folder of test00, test01 etc files that date from that time.
But, and this is the reason for my post RanchWilder, watch and listen closely.
Record a 5 minute audio click track in PTPA and then go back to the start and press Record (doesn’t matter if you’re not actually recording anything).
I have a hunch that from about 90 secs onwards (but this will be crystal clear after 4 minutes), you will hear the click a long time before the cursor passes over the visual representation.
I eventually found that it was this which was causing my sync error.
For some reason, in Record mode the existing tracks were in a hurry to make themselves heard, although in Playback mode they behaved themselves just fine.
I tinkered with everything I could from the sound card drivers to the buffer settings but couldn’t crack it.
How did I solve the problem in the end ?
….by recording all my audio work on Audacity !
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Hey guys,. I figured it out. DUHHHHHHHH!!!!. I found out there's a latency setting for the TASCAM. I don't know why, but it had changed. I went in and reset it and now it's fine. Thanks for all your comments. I learned a lot from the various exchanges.  Ranch
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