PG Music Home Forums General Discussion Songwriting Circle of Fifths

Hello PG Music Forum!

Wanted to share this as a reminder with how important this concept this. In the video below it shows how to go through the circle of fifths for major keys. Very helpful reference for beginners and a great reminder for novices!

You can find the video below:

Joe,

My next song goes:

G Db F# Ab11 C B Eb G# C G F Gminor7b9add11+5

Are you saying, that's.....wrong???

Good one David! Haha -- This was mean't to be a reference of basic concepts. As the saying goes once you know the rules you can break them in creative ways

Here are a few pop songs that use the circle of fifths.
Each of these songs uses the circles of fifths
for at least four chords in a row.

You Never Give Me Your Money - The Beatles
Crocodile Rock - Elton John (in the bridge)
Wild World - Cat Stevens (in the verse)
How Can I Tell You - Cat Stevens
Can We Still Be Friends - Todd Rundgren
I Will Survive - Gloria Gaynor
Happy Heart - Andy Williams and Petula Clark (in the chorus)
Killing Me Softly With His Song - Roberta Flack (both the verse and chorus)
My Favorite Things - from The Sound Of Music
This Guy's In Love With You - Burt Bacharach
Changes - Phil Ochs
The War Is Over - Phil Ochs
What's That I Hear - Phil Ochs
Is There Anybody Here - Phil Ochs
When I'm Gone - Phil Ochs
One Way Ticket Home - Phil Ochs

Phil Ochs has probably used the circle of fifths more
frequently than any other songwriter i am familiar with.
Although i would not be surprised to find out that there
are some Todd Rundgren ballads from the early 70s
that also use it.

The most well-known piece of classical music to use it is
Vivaldi's The Four Seasons in the Winter section.

The absolute classic Circle of Fifths has to be Henry Mancini's 'Moon River' (lyrics by Johnny Mercer). Circle of Fifths is continuous throughout the entire song.

Hey Folks,

I am trying to get a deeper understanding of what people mean by "following the circle of fifths" and am using the Moon River citation as an example.

As far as I understand it, the Circle of Fifths essentially lets you see the 7 chords that are "logical" to use in any key, though you are free to borrow chords or "steal" from related keys as long as they sound nice.

At the bottom is an image of that representation in the C of Key. When I am in C, I often use Eb, G# and Bb and Gm too for the surprise effect, or Fm when I want to get all John Lennon.

But here are the chords (more or less, taken from the web) for Moon River.

The song essentially uses most of the chords that are logical in the key of C, plus others that just sound good, like Fm7.

In light of the wheel, what do we mean when we say we are "following" the circle of fifths? I hope I am not being dense and it is an honest question. Do we mean we are using it as a reference of acceptable chords, or that we are following a specific hop-scotching sequence of sorts? I have always been intrigued when people have use the word "following" in this context and have always wanted to know what that means.

Not to say the term "following" has been used in this thread yet, but I hear that term a lot.


Moon River

C Am F Em

F Em

Dm6 E7 Am C

F A#7

Am Fm75 B Em Am Dm7 G7

Hi David,

Back in my days following the circle of fifths meant any chord can come after the tonic but then you use the circle of fifths to return to the tonic chord. For example the tonic is C and the second chord is F#m. You would then follow the circle of fifths, starting on the F#m and going counter clock wise back to C. This example would bring the F#m chord to any form of a B, E, A, D, G then the tonic C. In Moon River it would be the last five chords, i.e. Fm75 B Em Am Dm7 G7.

BUT in music ALL rules can be broken. A tritone can be a substitute for a dominate 7th, i.e. C#7 to a C (tonic). A VIm a substitute for a I, etc.

YMMV

Ah! Thanks Mario!

So the riddle is solved!

Thanks oh mighty Sphinx!

Genius. I shall enter this into a template right now!*



Do I get a degree or something you can mail me, like a diploma, now that I have taken the Mario Class?

* But I assume you are subbing Fm7b5 for the F#m7 in this example? Otherwise you are a LONG way from home if you start at Fm per se.

I am fascinated by this.

More is more.

Lay it on me.

I've never thought too much about "following" the circle of fifths, although I do so occasionally.
I find it helps a lot in sight transposing chord progressions. If you go clockwise, it becomes a circle of fourths.

Yes, Fm7b5 is a substitute for F#m7.
Fm7b5= F - Ab(G#) - Cb(B) - Eb(D#)
B = B- F#-D#(Eb)

Notice the b5 of Fm7b5 is them same note as the B of the B chord. Also note that the 7th of Fm7b5 is the same as the 3rd of the B chord. The F and/or the Ab(G#) modulate to the F# of the B chord.

JonD and I like playing chord games like this. That is what non-conventional chord can we place next! We try to have one note that is the same in both chords, however sometimes it doesn't happen.

I hope this helps.

Exactly. The circle of 5ths, also called the circle of 4ths, is there as a guide line and not an absolute rule. Most songs do not follow the circle of 5ths to a tee. However if you look you will find chord progression within a song that do. For instance the VIm-IIm-V-I found in many songs is in the circle of fifths.

I'm not entirely convinced of this, mostly because there's an F instead of an F# in the chord.

To my uneducated ear, the Fm7b5 is functioning more like an altered B chord that it resolves into a less-altered B chord..

Since the chord is mostly minor thirds, the B-D# interval sticks out because my ear wants a strong interval.

Just my 2 cents.

Sorry, David and Mario, but tbe circle of fifths has nothing to do with being
'logical' or 'following'. I did study music theory in college.
The circle of fifths is merely a chord progression in
which each of the chords has a certain mathematical relation to
the preceding chord. Each chord is exactly five semitones tones higher than
the previous chord. You can use it for different purposes, but the only
requirement for a chord progression to be a circle of fifths is that the
chords be in a certain mathematical relation to each other.

In other words, let's say that you play an A chord. Now it does not matter
if it is an A major or minor or 7th or 11th chord or a diminished chord. If you
want to use a circle of fifths chord progression the next chord you play
would be a D chord (again it doesn't matter if it is major minor 9th etc.),
which is 5 semitones up from an A chord.

The next chord you play would be 5 semitones up, a G chord. Then another 5 semitones up would be a C chord. So, if you keep doing this 12 times you will be going from A to D to G to C to F to A# to D# to G# to C# to F# to B to E to A. So, in 12 steps, by using the circle of fifths, you will end up right where you started (it does not matter what chord you started on) which is why it is called a 'circle', because you eventually come back, after 12 chords, to the same chord you started on.

Now, if you are only using 3 chords that are in a circle of fiths progression, let's say G to C to F, then that does not really qualify as a circle of fiths progression. You really need to use at least 4 chords, such as G to C to F to A#, to qualify as an official circle of fifths progression, although that is not a hard and fast rule.

The importance of the circle of fifths progression is that it can make your music sound more interesting. The reason it is making your music sound more interesting is because you are frequently modulating to a different key. For example, if you are in the key of G and you play a C chord
you are still in the key of G. But if you then play a F chord you are now either in the key of F or the key of C, depending on which chords you play next. And if you keep playing even more chords in the circle of fifths you will continue to modulate to different keys and this will keep your listening audience alert and intrigued.

Of course, if you are interested in writing top 40 style songs, or songs for film, tv, or ads, you should never use the circle of fifths, because, in those styles of music, they are just looking for musically boring songs that sound similar to songs the listeners have heard before. Things were alot different back in the 60s and 70s when there was alot more musical experimentation, in the top 40, than in the past few decades.

To sum up, the circle of fifths is merely a chord progression in which every chord is 5 semitones higher than the previous chord and it can be used anywhere in a song, verse, chorus or bridge, and it will make your song sound more interesting and more musically sophisticated.

But do not be hesitant about using the circle of fifths just because it is based on a
mathematical pattern. After all, all music is different variations of mathematical patterns. There have even been some computer programs that allow you to input some melodies by a certain songwriter you like and then the computer will create some melodies in the style of that songwriter. These programs are not yet for sale, they have only been research projects so far But it won't be too long before these programs are for sale and you can bet that the major labels will want to ensure that the records by their artists sound enough like their previous hits, and the labels will use this sort of program to do so.

Thanks Man in Two,

I think we are talking about the same thing and there is nothing to be sorry for.

You are talking about how it is laid out or "made" essentially and though I am glad you shared the math, I already knew it.

I was talking more about the applications because I have heard many people using the term "follow" and I simply did not not what they meant by that.

But both you and Mario have each given me invaluable insights in two different ways, and I appreciate that.

Thank you very much.

Any functional V->I progression counts as a "circle of fifths progression", even if it's only two chords.

Since your example progression it's long enough to establish C as the tonal center, the best explanation is a circle of fifths progression.

If you extended the progression long enough to establish C as the tonic, the G C would still be a circle of fifths progression.

Personally, I've always explained the circle of fifths to my students in terms of the harmonic series, since it gives a good explanation of functional consonance and dissonance. It's also worth noting that in that context, the "circle of fifths" doesn't actually return to the starting note, since there's a gap known as the Pyhagorean comma, which then leads to useful discussion about tempered tuning.


Plenty of circle of fifths progressions don't make use of modulation, and plenty of modulations don't make use of tonicization. Most do, because the V->I progression is perhaps the strongest progression in Western music, so it's often used to clarify to the listener that there's been modulation... But there's no requirement that the V->I movement be involved. For example:

D | Dm | Em | Fmaj7 | G | A | Bm | C#dim | D

Here, I've temporarily modulated from D major to D Dorian (or perhaps C Ionian, but because I wrote it I'll claim it's Dorian), moved in a stepwise progression, and then modulated out back to D major again, with nary a V->I motion in sight.


Because V->I progressions never appear in popular music, with the exception of just about every pop song ever written. And temporary modulations never happen in popular music, except all the time.


Again, you appear to be talking about temporary modulation using a tonic pivot chord, not the circle of fifths.

Wow Dave. The forum can get harsh when people get all technical and stuff, huh?

Hey I have a question:

If you don't know your butt from your elbow, and you have absolutely no idea what you are doing or talking about, but you write a tune and people say:

"Dude, that song was frickin' amazing, where did you come up with that chord progression????"

Are you using the Circle of Fifths then?

Even if you have no idea what that means and can't read a note?

Did Paul McCartney know the Circle of Fifths or did he just jam his butt off????

These are questions that have plagued me for years and I was wondering if you had any insights, sir.

David, I don't think that it is harsh. Actually we are all saying the same thing just in different ways. Remember the line in my first message, "BUT in music ALL rules can be broken".



As Dave mentioned many songs change keys and/or modes withing the original key signature. This is important as the circle of fifths also changes along with them.

But you do not need to know theory or even read music to be a musician. It has been said that guitarist Wes Montgomery couldn't read music and didn't know theory. If this is true he did have one hell of an ear for music. A lot of the old blues guitarists couldn't read either and they put out some great music. The Beatles could not read music! Did that stop them from writing some of the best songs ever?

You play what your head, heart and ears tell you to play. Remember the same notes were under Beethoven's fingers that were under Monk's fingers.

I tell my students to learn theory but do not let it get into the way of your playing. Use it for practicing and for determining what you just played. The same goes for the circle of fifths/fourths. It is a tool to get back to the I chord but it is not the only way to get there. YMMV.

Hahahaha. I'll pretend you aren't trolling me.

You're classically trained, so you know music theory is a set of generally accepted practices that you can use when you're trying to figure out why something doesn't work, usually only codifed after a given style is extinct. In plenty of cases - fugues come to mind - the theory doesn't even follow the "rules" that the composer allegedly used.

There's only one real rule of music: If it sounds good, it is good.

If you can be like Sir Paul and "just hear it", more power to you. That's the way you should be writing music.


Yeah, you typically won't find that in music theory, will you?

While the Beatles made use of things like deceptive cadences, I can guarantee you that "What this song needs is a deceptive cadence" was said by none of the Beatles, ever.

More likely, they were fooling around with chords - or listened to someone else - and said "Dude, that progression is frickin' amazing, let's use it."

David, Trump doen't know his butt from his elbow and nobody
has any idea what he is doing or talking about but he writes a
tweet anyway and people say to him "Dude Donald, that was
frickin' amazingly ridiculous, where did you come up with that
progressive descent into insanity?" He did all this without
studying anything about political theory.

That is due to his drinking too many... fifths

But seriously, none of the Beatles knew anything about music theory
and they could not read music at all. I have read numerous interviews with
many songwriters and i can't recall a single one who actually had
studied music theory at all. That chord progression at the beginning
of Paul's Yesterday actually came to him in a dream, and no pop song
had ever used that chord progression before.

Even Frank Zappa, who wrote a number of albums of orchestral
works, only had 6 months of formal music training. He just had an incredibly
good ear and taught himself how to write music so that orchestras
could perform his music.

By the way, not only is it not necessary to know any music theory to write
songs, you do not even have to know how to play a musical
instrument! I once saw an ad in the paper from some guy who had
written around 80 songs, who did not play any musical instrument,
he had written all the lyrics down on paper and had kept all the melodies
in his head. He wanted someone who could play guitar to try to
figure out the chords he heard in his head so he could then put
them on a tape recorder.

So i met with him a few times and i would play chords for the melodies
he sung until i finally found the progressions he heard in his head,
and then he would sing while i played guitar and he taped the result.
I found that to be a very interesting experience and it was nice to
be able to physicalize what was in his head. Although, i do have to
admit that his melodies were not very interesting and alot of his
melodies sounded similar to other of his melodies.

By the way, David, if these questions have caused you to have the
plague, as you say, then you will have to be quarantined to posting
in this forum only by the CDC (Chord Digressions Control)

Oh, no no no Two Socks, we are good.

You have just given me my new song man.

Be back in 18 hours.



Hold on. I am about to make History here.

Thanks everybody. You'll see.

18 hours? You're slowing down!

I might be able to make up circle chord input for BB with Lua script.
So it has the radial menu you pick > Scale type > Key > Chord

If you think it will be usable ??

You could also make a picker with All chords or Key.
You could just have arrows to move the BB cursor and a comma check box for chords on the next beat.

Is the second screenshot something already in BIAB I have missed?

I can't tell if this is a joke or you pulled a magic trick, or if this already exists, but if it does not exist and you built it, it would be awesome.

So, don't laugh at me, but is the second screenshot something already in BIAB and if so where is it?

If it is not there, fire up some code man.

No it's not in BB but should be that's why I thought about making one for it, something like RapidComposer so it won't take 18 hours.

Love it.

But isn't this new feature in 2018 very similar, just saw it..

I think you mean this:


Jim, Jack, George, Johnny, and Old Antique setting in a circle.....

Exactly Herb.

See Songwriting Forum and my latest post of 15 minutes ago.

Herb, you kinda beat me to it thought wise, but I think music wise Tater Totts was hoping his new song Circle of Fifths would put an end to all this silly talk so people can just get back to writing themselves some great country hits.

Thanks to Two Socks, Mario, Dave Cuny, Herb Hartley, Pipleline and Floyd Jane for teaching me everything I know about the Circle of Fifths and writing a great country song.

http://www.pgmusic.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=463325#Post463325

For some this may be helpful.

Ha ha ha ha ha ha ha!

Man, that's what I'm taking about!!

Here's a beta version you can try, there might be some errors/typos, check the scales also, let me know what don't work.
https://www.dropbox.com/s/eb7ppu14po74ur0/Biab_Chord_Picker_beta_1.0.zip?dl=1

EDIT: fixed Play Generate Button >+

The chords are copied in order from the PG website, there are some duplicates.
The dim gives dim7.

Use the Bass, Drum, Piano.. buttons to set the instrument/s to play over a Rest, Shot or Hold
Use the < > to move or use the keyboard arrows.
Use - for a comma between chords.
Use / for slash chords.

It should just run standalone, any problems just install AutoHotKey
you can also right click > Properties > Compatibility > Run As Admin




Creating your own GUI:

I included the script, to edit it use SciTE4AutoHotKey or Notepad.
To create a GUI use SmartGUI then open in SciTE4AutoHotKey to add the the hotkeys.

So for each GUI Button you create e.g 13b5#9 put the code at the bottom,

this will send it to the Biab window, { } are used to send some special characters.



You can use the GUI to do any Biab function by adding a button to send the shortcut keys or keystrokes to access the menus etc...
If you have AutoHotKey installed just right click the script.ahk > Compile, this will create the GUI.exe

Pipeline,

I appreciate all of your hard work man, more than you will ever know, but I don't know anything about programming and I am terrified of testing executables that have not been tested for fear that they may cause something to crash, and I won't have any idea to fix it.

I would prefer to use this when someone else who is more computer literate than me has checked it out and verified that it is safe to download, install and run, because again I am a moron when it comes to this domain. Also, I am pretty sure my Norton config will delete this the moment it sees it. But again, I just don't know enough to say.

Thanks for all you do man!

Just install AutoHotKey then double click on the Biab Chord Picker beta 1.0 script.ahk and it will run without having to use the exe.
If you open the Picker beta 1.0 script.ahk by dragging into Notepad you will send it is just simple text, OR instead of downloading you can copy the text below into Notepad then save as My Chord Tool.ahk and it will run when you double click it:

https://www.dropbox.com/s/br2rsun384q0qap/Biab%20Chord%20Picker%20beta%201.0.txt?dl=0


The top part creates the buttons and the bottom part sends those to Biab as keystrokes.

Here is just the text script https://www.dropbox.com/s/tz57jd1fz4ws5ab/Biab%20Chord%20Picker%20beta%201.0%20script.ahk?dl=1

View Full Screen

Hey Pipeline,

Thanks. I have limited technical knowledge of this sort and have no idea what any of this means.

I think I will wait until someone else on the forum who knows more than me has tested it out and can explain it to me so I don't fear clicking on anything.

My apologies but I am super sensitive to intrusions or anything that might harm my computer. I have no idea what you are talking about and do not speak this language.

I will let someone else beta test it and tell me when it is ready.

Thanks for all of your effort and hard work.

To use Biab you need to be switched on, so I would say you are already there !!!
There's a song and lyrics right there, being brave to "Take the First Step".

You know life's not always easy
There's always a hard road ahead
But I'm gonna be brave
Yea I'm gonna be brave
To take the first step

I could create the chords up also with the chord picker if like..

I would put a Hold just before "To take the first step", so hit the chord button then the Hold button, then bring in the guitar solo.

Cool stuff Pipeline. I used to use AutoHotKey on a server to have it launch an app and click on specific options on the app with programmed mouse clicks.

Yes there are so many ways to use it.

This is the easiest way:

Here's a newer one with the chords in list order.
EDIT: Push buttons named
EDIT: Always On Top checkbox added
Exe and script
https://www.dropbox.com/s/ptxts5elvpo7xx4/Biab%20Chord%20Picker%20beta%201.c.zip?dl=1

Script only
https://www.dropbox.com/s/vmwy2ffpdqpllb3/Biab%20Chord%20Picker%20beta%201.c.ahk?dl=1

i'll give it a try, thnx, F

It would be good to get some feedback, the only feedback I've had is from funkycornwall here http://www.pgmusic.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=464692#Post464692

Fixed m6 m7 Ma7, added View Mode button.

EDIT: Update,
Added Set existing Chord to Push 1/8 or 1/16
Added View Mode Normal/Compact
Added DAW Plug-in Mode (small)

EDIT: Update
Added Remove Push Shot Hold or Rest from Chord
Added GUI Color Picker
Added Move BB Window with cursor keys or mouse


Exe and script
https://www.dropbox.com/s/mifqr8ibtnk6f4h/Biab%20Chord%20Picker%20beta%201.f.zip?dl=1

Script only
https://www.dropbox.com/s/qluu9iv9plk3ndk/Biab%20Chord%20Picker%20beta%201.f.ahk?dl=1

If you have any other suggestions let me know.
Updated version:

Update
Added Copy & Paste Chord (works from one BB to another)
Added Play Chord
Exe and script
https://www.dropbox.com/s/arqa17ymzjdnyvr/Biab%20Chord%20Picker%20beta%202.0a.zip?dl=1

Script only
https://www.dropbox.com/s/u27ylvwewimjxzg/Biab%20Chord%20Picker%20beta%202.0a.ahk?dl=1

Updates here: http://www.pgmusic.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=464478#Post464478

Chord Picker beta 2.0b
Fixed order Harmonic Major/Minor chords
Added Set existing Chord to Rest, Shot or Hold
Added Custom Actions Tool Tab
To create your own Actions for the buttons rename "Action name"

Gui, Add, Button, x22 y100 w90 h20 gButtonCA1-1, Action Name

then go down the text or search for "ButtonCA1-1:"

ButtonCA1-1:
winactivate,ahk_class TBandWindow
Send C
Return

it is sending c as default, change the keysend to what you like, save and run.

For example, if we want to make Custom Actions 1 Button 1 Unfold:

Gui, Add, Button, x22 y100 w90 h20 gButtonCA1-1, Unfold
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
ButtonCA1-1:
winactivate,ahk_class TBandWindow
Send !e
Send {Down 10}
Send {Right 1}
Send {Down 5}
Send {Enter}
Return

Send !e = Alt+E to open the edit menu.
More info http://www.pgmusic.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=464478
Using Combination Keys:
http://xahlee.info/mswin/autohotkey_key_notations.html

Exe and script
https://www.dropbox.com/s/8youk0drvuanrdj/Biab%20Chord%20Picker%20beta%202.0b.zip?dl=1

Script only
https://www.dropbox.com/s/403g9sz4oxm326i/Biab%20Chord%20Picker%20beta%202.0b.ahk?dl=1

Hey Pipeline, would it work in BIAB 2017?

Inquiring minds would like to know.

Yes, and 2004, 2005.....

I know this thread has taken many turns but earlier I read one of the David's using McCartney in an example of someone just jamming his butt off, writes a great song, does he know the circle of fifth's?

From Wikipedia:

McCartney's father was a trumpet player and pianist, who had led Jim Mac's Jazz Band in the 1920s. He kept an upright piano in the front room, encouraged his sons to be musical and advised Paul to take piano lessons but Paul preferred to learn by ear.

I'll say the majority of legendary players and songwriters will have a good grounding in music even if it's not obvious at first. Sometimes you have to dig to find it. Paul may have learned by ear but the house was steeped in music, I'm sure his father practiced a lot and you pick things up in that environment. There are transcendental geniuses with ears who seem to be able to play anything with zero musical background but that's rare.

Ok, back to the technical wizardry stuff...

Bob