PG Music Home Forums General Discussion Songwriting Track / tune / song critique thread

Hi fellows. Every day I try to find some time to read some posts on this forum. Some stuff is great and very informative.

What I can not find is this...

There is a showcase of songs, here is a songwriting thread. Is there one which deals with critique of specific songs/tunes??

Let me explain. I am not a professional musician in any way, music is strictly a hobby and joy for me. But I do want to get better at it. Some musicians are very protective of their stuff and take suggestions or opinions that might not seem positive to them very painfully. To me, and I am sure to quite a few people, healthy critique might be very beneficial. For example, it could work like a "showcase" thread but only for suggestions/critique. Sort of song making 101 (or 501). Meaning, post would have to contain song! No "songless" posts! For those who feel that there might be something they can take from suggestions, not just "showcasing" music.


For example, I listen to the track of a fellow member and I just feel that bass would feel better if it was quieter ... So I say it . Or vocals are too dry, say it....Basically specific thread for those who want a critical, but respectful ear. Not specifically professional just "how it feels".

P.S. Showcase is ok, but comments are 99% sweet and positive, not much critique there.


Let me know what you think about it.

Thanks,
Mike.

There is no reason that you can't do what you are describing - in the Showcase.

Simply start your post by stating that you want critiques. You can even say something to the affect of "hard critiques" - with whatever aspect you are wanting feedback on. The subject line could have some type notice, too... "Critiques Wanted: My New Song"... I'm sure you would get some feedback from all sides...

And... you can take those comments/suggestions with a grain of salt if you choose. I have had critiques of song lyric and structure (in the Showcase) that were some of the most ridiculous song suggestions I've ever heard...


And, you can let folks know - in the Showcase - that you think there is some aspect of a production that could use "a tweak" - if done in a respectable, polite manner. (I remixed a song recently based on comments about an odd sounding harmony).



(I think we have too many separate sections on this forum as it is... just a personal observation, of course)

Yes, I agree with Floyd. I will often end a post with "all comments welcome", or if I'm looking for feedback on particular aspect I will ask for it specifically.

And I have no problem in providing feedback to others if I hear something in their mix that I think could use improvements.

Hmmm... FJ...Can not agree with you.
99% of comments are not suggestive in any way at "showcase", but praising.

Which works as designed... but I believe even a name "SHOWCASE" suggests a final product.

What I propose is a thread that deals with... not fully baked things. For people with open mind about their tunes, mostly for people who want critical opinion, not "showcasing".

Just because people are generally nice (in the Showcase) does not mean that you cannot get valid critiques if you made it a point to ask.

Why not try it and see what happens?

FJ, simple...

I could not find anything similar, and that might be because people are shy to ask or do not want to ask, because as I mentioned "Showcase" in my mind as probably in other people minds suggests a finished product.

From dictionary:
showcase:
exhibit; display.
"the albums showcase his production skills"


What I am talking about is not "showing" skills, but actually asking for improvement suggestions.

In similar manner there are art shows and art workshops. Which are very different in their nature. In one, people display their art in other people learn.

You are posting in the correct forum.



"Discussions, Tips-n-Tricks, Resources and Questions about Songwriting"



Regards,


Bob

I have given you a valid suggestion.

Other people HAVE posted "unfinished" work in the Showcase and asked for valid critiques. And they get it. Granted, most often the songs in the Showcase are (considered by their creator) "finished" and most people do want folks to "appreciate" their work.

BUT...that does not mean you cannot get valid critiques IF YOU ASK FOR IT.

You seem unwilling to do so and simply want to argue a point of your own making.

FJ, Ok.
Let me try it your way. There is a tune I finished this morning. I will try to post it now to "showcase" to see if you are correct about asking for suggestions.

Thank you.

Well....IMO....

This particular subject has come up in the past.
The Showcase is generally an 'encouragement' and it's all good sort forum and to 'showcase' what BIAB is capable of.....which is fine.

As Floyd states....post your song in the "Songwriting" forum and just be very specific about the aspects of the song you want a critique on.

Many years ago I would politely offer "suggestions" based on a poster's request.
I rarely do anymore for a few reasons.

Candidly submitted comments can easily be taken personally by those who have thin skin vs. having the skin of a snow tire.
I'm critical about what I like, the genre that is actually appealing to me or what I perceive to be vapid, cookie cutter creations.
Unless a song actually moves me with well chosen, non cliche subject matter and well recorded I stay out of the commentaries.
Why would I think my candid assessment of their creation would be well received anyway especially if they don't like my material.
If I hear a song that has musical merit/original creativity to me....I might just comment.

But, about a year or so ago I posted a request for only 'mix' comments only on a few of my BIAB songs.
I'd never post a song asking 'what do you think of my (masterpiece:)) creation'.
I did not ask for comments about liking my song/material because they may think I suck at song writing....but, they kindly listened and I appreciated ALL the "mix" responses/suggestions.

If people post their material on the public forums they should not get offended by anyone's comments knowing there will always be someone who is honest about their critique but the poster will end up being offended in some fashion.

I'll visit your 'critique my new song' thread and see how it evolves.

That's my take on it....back to topic.

chulaivet1966,

Love your "snow tire skin" comment.
This is a perfect song theme/title!!!

Well put!

My problem is that hearing "own" stuff is always tricky, I always appreciate and take honest side opinions seriously. Even from friends that have no clue about music making.

Thank you.

Being specific in one's request is the key.

I've always liked to write.
It takes me a while flesh out the story but I'm quite comfortable with my subject choices and lyric writing (no, doesn't mean anyone else thinks it has any merit) so I wouldn't ask for opinions on those aspects.

I'm concerned more with how my mix translates to other monitor systems.
I use KRK Rockit 8's and any generous listener may be using Tannoy's or JBL's.
That's the most important aspect to me to get a feel for.

Back to topic.......

chulaivet1966,
I agree with most of the things you said.
Especially about specific questions.

The thing that troubles me the most is mixing. Sadly, I am a bit sloppy at that.
I am getting a bit better, after I discovered that for mixing it is better (in my view) to use open or semi-open back headphones. I had tough time with settling on monitor speakers. I considered KRK Rockit, but then got Roland DM-20 at great price and decided to keep them. The "professional" monitors are out of my budget. I used cheaper Edirol's in the past, so I knew what to expect.

Like you, I am concerned how mix translates to other systems. As Floyd Jane suggested, I posted my recent tune to "showcase" section and within few hours the replies I got shared a view that mix has issues which I believe are in part of the "how mix translates" dilemma

Thank you.

Here's a single mixing tip I got recently about how it sounds on different set-ups. Mix in mono. Certainly set your tracks to luscious stereo, but do your main mix (levels, EQ, compression, sweetening) in mono. Unless one is wearing good phones, or good-earbuds AND sitting still, mono (more or less) is how they will hear your song. Mixing in mono will get you more quickly to good results across all systems. Then open it up and feel the glory.

A bonus tip: use a professionally mixed reference track (your basic genre, instrumentation, overall "feel". Set it on an aux bus and reference it frequently to see if your mix is close. I've chosen Steely Dan recordings as mine. They were less sloppy and muddy than I tend to be, and I like the way they sound. Pick something you like.

First....I never mix on head phones.

Second....anyone can get a good (acceptable on most systems without being anal) mix on their monitors whether their cheapies or not.
The challenge is that over time one must get to know their monitors.
Knowing what frequencies/instruments that may always need an EQ massage before the mix process.

That takes time and some aural focus when you're starting to mix and trying to employ mix suggestions from others.

But...that's just me....to each their own.

The below post explains my approach to mixing...

www.pgmusic.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=496896#Post496914

Regards,
Noel

• a co-write with J&B: Deciduous Love (with a twist of Tin Pan Alley)

Rusty/Mike,

There are a lot of people on the forum who are professional-level mixers, producers and songwriters. That is a resource to be valued and honored and treated with respect.

The showcase, I think, is generally a place where people like to post songs that they are proud of and get a little encouragement—in a world that is filled with a lot of discouragement.

But, if you want experts on the forum to critique a certain part of your mix, I suggest you be specific, as others have cited, because it takes time to listen to a drum mix, for example, and make meaningful suggestions.

So my advice would be, let the showcase continue to be a place of encouragement for those who are working so hard and want to celebrate with their friends and show off what they have done.

That seems to be the general spirit and I applaud it. It’s how you grow. 99% encouragement and 1% helpful suggestion is a good mix I have found over the years. UNLESS people specifically ask for something else.

If YOU on the other hand want hard criticism, ask for it, but, again, be specific on what you think you want to improve.

As a closing FYI, most people give praise remarks because everybody is busy and trying to cover all their bases returning favors for people who have kindly listened to their songs and given encouragement in return. It has nothing to do with being disingenuous.

Mixing is really, really, really, really hard. It takes years just to make the smallest improvements.

There is a deep learning curve with today's technology, so we should all be thankful there is a place like this where people can learn in a respectful environment.

Disrespect, as you know, kills everything.

So, dive in and learn. I have made some great friends on this forum, and have wonderful mentors here. It is a marvelous place if you treat people well.

chulaivet1966,
I must disagree with you about headphones mixing for two reasons.
1) this has been a loong debate...I am on Noel side (Noel, I read your post on mixing technique, thank you.)to use/alternate between headphones/speakers.

2) is more serious .. I do not have much choice...my son goes to bed at 8:30
So for most of mixing, headphones are my best friends.

The EQ massage...on my mixes I need a combination of skilled chiropractor and a strong handed Thai massage therapist to gain flexibility.


David, we have somewhat different goals.
I am not a musician, just a hobbyist. My goal is not to "produce" or to gain "popularity" but just improve my flow of doing things as well as the output. I am always trying to be my best with people who are respectful to me.

Me thinks you did not grasp the point I was trying to make, which I still believe is valid. To sum it up semi-haiku style: Would be nice to have a workshop-thread based on actual audio material as reference for those who seek specific or general advise on particular tune or such.

Thank you!

If I've made a "constructive criticism", then I feel obligated to offer a constructive fix. Problem is, I've got problems of my own with mixing. I know a few "fixes", but they can be arrived at in various ways. Nobody needs them all. Which one (or a couple) work for you depends on your genre (and it's expectations), your own taste and preference, and the taste and preference of the one giving counsel--as well as your skills and "equipment", both hard and soft. All I can do is tell you what I heard and in the broadest terms possible what might work better.

I've been clicking "play" on sites like this for most of more than 20 years. Only once in thousands of listens have I wanted what I heard to suck. What I offer in advice (take it or leave it) is determined by what I hear. I know within a few bars "where" the person I'm listening to is in terms of talent and sound. I try to respond accordingly (and sometimes fail).

I'm new here and just beginning to learn who the "players" are. Still, I don't know them well enough to know their own goals with music. I'm not even sure about my own. So I don't know if it is someone who wants to improve over time, or someone who wants to work this particular mix to the highest level possible, or even if it's someone who doesn't care that much about the mix if what they've done gets across what they want to "showcase". I'm OK either way, for their sake. I don't have time, however, to run comparison listens for subjective takes on mixing decisions.

There are only a few mixing "squicks" for me. 1. Constant or momentary over-compression. 2. Heavily muddied EQ balancing. 3. Levels of vocals (if any)--either too loud or too soft. 4. Overall master levels (too loud or too soft). That's pretty much it.

If someone has done a decent job with those, then I'm happy enough. If they have done a good job with all or most of these with the occasional "problem", then I figure they know at least as much as I do about what they are doing and don't require anything more than a passing comment. If someone demonstrates little or no competence (or care) on any or all those things, then I'm not the one to teach them in a song review. I'm just a guy on the internet.

Clearly there are those among us who are artful and masterful at mixing. Seems to me, however, on this forum that they are also making their own music...in addition to living their own lives. You mentioned time-restraints.

Maybe in addition to seeking comment and or advise on a mix, you might also mention what your own goals are with the song. People will either play along or they won't. Who can blame them?

Bonus mixing tip: If you hear that two instruments are battling over a frequency range, if is better to cut than to boost.

On the other hand, there is another method if it is, say, two guitars that by nature are going to share frequencies. A parametric EQ is, probably, the best tool to use for this.

Pair the instruments. Determine which is the dominant. Find the best center frequency that delivers the "punch" you are looking for, whether is is high, mid, or mid-low. When you've found that frequency, boost it 2 or 3 db. Doing this will "roll-up" neighboring frequencies depending on how wide you've set your range. Then with the same settings, lower the gain on the other instrument the same--2 or 3 db. It may sound thinner solo, but combined it is the aural equivalent of lead vocals and harmonies. The goal is to stop the two similar instruments from sharing too much of the same frequencies, not to eliminate the frequencies.

Again, do this in mono first. When you can clearly make out what each of the two is doing, then you are "there". That's the fastest way to get there with EQ--mix in mono.

The above advice is in addition to, not a replacement for, what's been shared by others.


An observation and question: Even though I'm just getting started, so far I haven't seemed to have to do much EQ work with real-tracks--at least from the same style. Is that anybody else's experience?