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Joined: Mar 2007
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For years I put up w/ bad bass lines generated by the style I selected, and lousy rendering, totally different from the sound of an acoustic bass. I thought I had a solution w/ Real Tracks, but even the great sounding Real Tracks w/ the jazz bass (Ray, etc), have a built in restriction, and it is a big one -- you can't edit the bass lines. You are stuck w/ the generated bass lines. For many of you, that might be fine. I'm a jazz guitarist and I like to use only bass and Real Drums as a background for traditional straight-ahead jazz classics. Much of the time the auto-generated bass lines are not good. In fact they can be down right irritating. Maybe I'm too particular. If you listen carefully to auto-bass lines, you'll notice many times the notes don't carry a concept from one group of 2 or 4 measures to the next. So it might sound good for up to 4 measures, then it randomly starts another idea without regard to the previous few notes. That drives me insane. It's like listening to a schizophrenic. So what I have done is to take the trouble of inputting my own bass lines into the soloist channel, or modify some bass lines from a non-Real-Tracks style which I copy to the soloist channel. To get that great acoustic bass sound I use a plugin called NI BandStand. My savior! You can buy it through PGmusic or save money and go elsewhere. It operates either standalone or as a DXI plugin for BIAB. I use the DXI. It can be used to render all instruments, but I just use it for bass. It takes the bass lines in the soloist channel as input and uses wave recordings of acoustic bass and puts them all together. It sounds great, just like an acoustic bass, except slides and slaps are missing. I can't mimic the slides, but slaps can be somewhat faked by using clusters of bass notes w/ different durations, a slightly cumbersome process. I used to use BIAB's Roland VSC, but the acoustic sound from VSC is pitiful in comparison to Bandstand. The bad news -- it take me 1-3 hours per song. The good news -- the result is fantastic, and if I don't like the bass, it's my own d...m fault and I can change it. If you have the time to do your own bass, I highly recommend getting Bandstand w/ BIAB. 
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Joined: May 2000
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With a decent MIDI pickup on the guitar, you could speed up the process considerably as you could play the bassline in realtime and record it as MIDI data to the Melody or Soloist track. Just stick to the lower four strings, of course.
The trick is to transpose the notes down one octave after recording, then apply a good Bass MIDI output solution that you like.
I've done it that way using MIDI guitar and MIDI keyboard controllers for years. I like it much better than step entry, note-by-note entry methods. And some of those slides and things can indeed be just played in and, depending upon the type and quality of MIDI pickup and translator box, will get recorded to MIDI complete with certain CC data that mimics them.
My other trick is to record the guitar being played as bass one octave up to Audio track in the sequencer. Then I apply Pitch Shift algorithm plugin to take it down one octave. This one won't sound like a string bass at all with the standard electromagnetic pickup electric guitar, rather, it can sound remarkably like a solid body bass guitar at work. Use of audio compressor plugin after the fact is almost mandatory with this one, as it is with recording a real bass guitar.
--Mac
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Joined: Mar 2006
Posts: 812
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Joined: Mar 2006
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Hi Claude, I've spent years trying to find a great sounding Acoustic bass library. I did buy Bandstand (which is not available anymore BTW) as well as many other libraries. None did the trick UNTIL I checked out Spectrasonics "Trilogy". WOW....talk about real. Now they have a new product which is an overhaul and update called "Trillium". I advise you to check out the videos for it. Acoustic, and Electric basses to die for with real slides, thumps, trills, slaps, etc. Amazing stuff! https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dsj26oEoBfoAlso a great contender is Vir 2 "Basis". Wonderful stuff here too! https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J_z5XAR92qEBoth worlds apart from Bandstand! Hope this helps, Ed
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Joined: Aug 2009
Posts: 57
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Joined: Aug 2009
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Interesting and useful thread with very helpful suggestions. I have been very happy to use the acoustic bass sound that comes with Garageband/Logic (for example, my recording of THEM THERE SAINTS linked to the Tips 'n Tricks forum here) but am currently looking for some other samples.
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Joined: Nov 2008
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For those who already own bass guitars, there's a new BTM (Bass to Midi) pedal coming out soon...for $99! It's already available for ordering from Sweetwater. A cheap alternative to entering midi bass lines directly off a bass guitar...or...using the bass guitar to midi pedal for use as controller for midi instruments, principally synth tracks. In terms of glitches there might be quite a few off the basses lower strings. Even the more expensive bass guitar midi pickups have had tracking problems. But for home-studio use, doubling the basses own sound with synth-`activated midi tracks, it could be real funl for the price! I believe it's marketed by Sonus. http://www.thegigbaby.com 
Yamaha...Motif ES-8, Motif Rack, CS6X
Korg...Karma,Triton Classic, PA-80, M-1+
AkaiSampler-S5000, Roland.. X5080 Rack/G-1000 Arranger
Various Guitars/Basses Amps Pedals Rec.Equip.
Plus, BIAB 2015 and Sonar Platinum 2015 Upgrade from Cakewalk's Sonar X-3
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Joined: Jun 2009
Posts: 484
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Joined: Jun 2009
Posts: 484 |
Ed, the Trilian was about the most impressive acoustic bass sampler I have heard. I cannot wait until they take the level of detail onto the woodwinds, brass, and other strined instruments as the violin.
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Joined: Mar 2006
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RickeG, Yeah, if you like strings and want to be REALLY impressed with the state of the art in sample libraries, check these out> http://www.soundsonline.com/content/us/hollywood-strings.phpIt is a big file, but you can watch the movie about how to use it. After I picked my jaw up off the floor, I considered it, until I saw the price! But if you are a serious film music composer, it's a must have. Others think that LA Scoring Strings are better, you be the judge, again you can watch the videos explaining how the program works in your sequencer of choice> http://www.audiobro.com/html/demos.htmlIf you are looking for a full symphonic library that sounds REAL, the ProjectSam Symphobia is an awesome choice, and not too expensive> http://www.projectsam.com/Products/Boxed-Products/When you consider that Hans Zimmer and over 80% of TV series and Movies are made with these libraries, you will understand why after you hear the demos......enjoy! Ed
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Joined: Dec 2003
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Hi Claude, the demos sound very good on this Sonivox $19 acoustic bass DVI. Although I do not own this one yet I do have a couple of Sonivox DVI’s and they are really great sounding, especially considering the price.
When I was young I was poor. But after years of hard, honest, and painstaking work I am no longer young.
64 bit Win 10 Pro, the latest BiaB/RB, Roland Octa-Capture audio interface, a ton of software/hardware
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Joined: Dec 2004
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Mario, that Sonivox upright bass is fine in practice, as well as in demo. More refined than the Manytone Bass. It has slap in the top velocities, but not all the thumps and slides and graunches of the Manytone.
It has been available for years in soundfont form. All the DVI's are the old soundfonts repackaged in little VSTi players. Still really good.
Larry
______
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There is another option that I'm aware of, and that would be Keyfax's Twiddly Bits. They are MIDI recordings of people playing MIDI controllers. You'll have to find your own synth sound, of course, but you can cut and paste the Twiddly Bits into your sequencer, PLUS, they are totally editable. http://www.midisamples.com/Gary
I'm blessed watching God do what He does best. I've had a few rough years, and I'm still not back to where I want to be, but I'm on the way and things are looking far better now than what they were!
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I have to agree with Ed Buckley's recommendation of Trillian. I've been fooled more than once by it's contrabass as well as electric bass accompaniments by online friends posting songs. Pretty pricey, but in this case, I think you get what you pay for. Last couple of years, I've been playing my own bass parts and getting closer to the end goal of something I can be proud of. You can get into a pretty nice electric bass sound with real hardware for about $250 total: $120 for the bass from www.rondomusic.net and another $100 to buy a bass amp simulator.
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piggybacking on Mac's idea of recording the bass with Midi guitar, then dropping an octave...
even if you don't have a MIDI guitar, you can record bass on the guitar as audio, then use Audacity to lower the pitch an octave without changing the timing. I doubt it would sound like an acoustic upright, but it approximates an electric bass fairly well.
You might experiment with an acoustic guitar, classical guitar, electric guitar etc to see which lowered sound is closest to that of a natural bass
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Have you heard the AC bass in Garritan Jazz & Big Band? What the hell is this font? that is the dumbest ampersand I've ever seen. It looks like some closet christian secret sign. The guy who did the Ac Bass tracks must have written this font. Anyway, after the novelty wears of the real tracks you begin to notice that much of this stuff is way too busy in many cases and there needs to be a way to edit the sound of these tracks. If not the performances. PG!! this is accompaniment software not saving it up for friday nite party time. The modern jazz drum tracks are a good example. A real band would have this guy in the alley with there hands around his neck if someone played like this on a jazz gig. I tried for a half hour last nite to find a real tracks style in the Jazz Ballad category that didn't have a bass player that wanted to solo over the second time thru the head.... Even after I took out all the fill and get it on now squares. What are these people thinking? We'd be so thrilled to have something that feels decent to play with we wouldn't notice the 8 bit sound files? the cheezy slide guitar files. PIanos........ you get the idea.
Back to Garritan Jazz. Don't bother buying it for Biab. They love selling it but can't support it. It is the most frustrating thing I have come across besides running this program on a pc. The new mac version is for the intel macs. But Garritan drives biab crazy. I'll called a million times and they were going to get right on it. They didn't even have a computer with it installed! This is the best sounding stuff around for this kind of money 149.00. It makes everything else they offer, that I've heard, sound like a toy band. And they can't or won't figure out how to make it work. The pc is fast enough and has 3 gig of ram and the has de rigueur 32 bit limping, lump of an OS [ can't think of the name ] but it's the one biab likes. I never use it for anything but biab and almost never get on line with it. It has very little other software on it and has been optimized for audio use. Pretty frustrating times for biab and jazz. There is so much potential there.
Ron
`15 Audiophile, Toshiba17", 3Mhz, 4gig ram, 500gig HD, Win7, Tascam 122mkII interface, Tascam 16 track 8 buss recording mixer, 2 Avalon747sps,CAD VX2 mic, AKG C1000s, mac and Digital Performer.
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Joined: Nov 2008
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PG Music Staff
Joined: Nov 2008
Posts: 1,382 |
Hi Ron,
By default, Band-in-a-Box will play a "B" sub-style during the middle choruses, and the B parts are always busier during the A parts. This will happen no matter which style you're using.
Go to Edit - Settings (For This Song) and un-check the "Vary Style in Middle Choruses" checkbox to disable this feature.
Hope this helps
Kent
PG Music
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Joined: Apr 2010
Posts: 13
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Ron, that is a pretty informative post. I was considering upgrading from Biab 2004 to the current Ultra Pack because I am dissatisfied with the double bass sounds from VSC and Cakewalk TTS-1 (a synth in Sonar). About half of my Biab stuff is standards as recorded by the vocalists in the 40's and 50's -- as they say 'any tune Frank would sing'. For example this afternoon I was working on Fly Me to the Moon using the midi 'Coc-tail' style. I like the double bass note selection but just not the sound. However I have now extensively sampled the Realtracks swing bass demos and consider them to be non-authentic for my purpose. Compared to the original recordings they are too busy, as you said, sounding more like soloists with much jumping around between octaves; they have way too much fingerboard buzz when playing up the neck; and the bass is very nasally. It is more nasal than any double bass I have ever heard. I own and have played a double bass for about 10 years on and off and have experimented with different strings and although I am not very good I have some knowledge of how the instrument can sound. I guess that the Realtrack swing basses were meant just for hard core jazz, although I understand that you feel they are lacking in that area too. I have tried putting some serious eq on the demo tracks which helped to a certain extent with the buzzing, but not enough, and just couldn't eliminate the nasal quality.
I listened very closely to the demos of Garritan Jazz & Big Band on their site and was blown away at the sound for just $149. I thought Biab 2004 would do me just fine if it could sound like that, but I didn't think my computer can run it. It just has a Celeron 2.3 GHz processor with 1 GB ram. I was toying with the idea of upgrading the computer instead of Biab but if Garritan Jazz & Big Band won't work with Biab then there is no point. Not sure what to do now. There are many sounds in Realtracks that I could use but not having a good double bass for the old standards could be the deal breaker.
At the moment I am using a 30 day demo of Forte DXi. I like its double bass sound much better than the other synths I have (as far as sounding generally like the old recordings of the standards), but the rest of the sounds are not much of an improvement to my ears. I tried the demo of the Xpansion Tank 2 but the demo did not come with a double bass at all. I may just keep my powder dry until there are some Realtrack basses that suit my needs.
(Just to clarify -- I am not trying to re-create the original arrangements, just to have a sound that is more or less in the ball park. The midi styles are usually good enough for what I want.)
Jim
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Joined: Feb 2005
Posts: 216
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Joined: Feb 2005
Posts: 216 |
Hi Jim. I'm a bass player too but fretless mostly and I don't play much anymore. I intonation is not good unless I stare at my left hand.
On the Garritan. Not much to say except I'd rather have their bass w/ a midi source than the real track bass.
That said, the real drums are worth the price of admission.
The problems I'm having are when you are working with a song file and doing lots of double click starts or looping and stopping and starting, or jumping around in the song form, quickly the notes on the bass and some times the piano [ these are about the only instruments I use plus real drums] begin to be truncated so I have something like a 64th note where a quarter note should be. On your pc the horror story could be different. One solution to this is to freeze the tune or put it into real band but that gets iffy too. Just getting it ported over there has been problematic the few times I've tried it.
If I close and reopen the app. that usually takes care of the errors. Sometimes a restart in necessary. Perhaps by Garritan has changed their interface from NI player. They promised this a year ago and don't support the product in Biab either. Again your situation could be different with your pc. There are no two of those alike. PG folks are not unreasonable and they might sell you Garritan with the understanding that they'd take it back if it won't run properly in their app. I won't give up that sound library. So I'm quite frustrated till I get one of the new macs.
On your pc 2.3 gigahertz sounds fast enough but I'd ask pG ts about the ram. I think more would be in order and I think the JABB library is 5 or 6 gigabytes in size. A 7200 or better rpm hd will help things too.
Also the way real tracks work... if you don't select a real tracks style they have an asterisk or something in title of the style then you could use the Garritan bass or those amazing samples from Trillian mentioned above. They are the best thing I've heard. It's very possible if you have a 2004 ver. of Biab that you won't have problems with Garritan samples. Good luck.
`15 Audiophile, Toshiba17", 3Mhz, 4gig ram, 500gig HD, Win7, Tascam 122mkII interface, Tascam 16 track 8 buss recording mixer, 2 Avalon747sps,CAD VX2 mic, AKG C1000s, mac and Digital Performer.
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Joined: Feb 2005
Posts: 216
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Posts: 216 |
Hello Kent, Thanks, I understand about the B parts, Thats why I tried having no fills or B part colors in the fill squares. There is a difference between a part getting more interesting and more irritating. You guys need to take a hard listen to your jazz bass real tracks performances. Guys who played like this at a gig would never get thru the nite or at least never get rehired. That kind of over playing probably sells the real tracks to the teens and 20 somethings but once they begin trying to play over these jazz style real tracks they will no longer be happy campers if they've been playing long enough to grow some taste. I really don't want to dumb down the style with the `vary B section' option. Your company needs to have some jazz players listen to your performances and sample quality. Same thing used to happen on the one and only Abersold Jazz tracks album I bought before I knew about BIAB. Everyone was over playing like crazy. Its supposed to be Accompaniment!
Ron
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Joined: May 2002
Posts: 7,093
PG Music Staff
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PG Music Staff
Joined: May 2002
Posts: 7,093 |
Hi,
Jazz & Big Band is tricky to use in Band-in-a-Box, mainly because it is not a GM synth, BB only supports using one VSTi at a time, and also JABB wants some special controllers to use some instruments properly. It is more suited for use in RealBand, where you can have more control over the MIDI messages you are sending it, and you can assign different synths to different tracks.
Regarding the Acoustic Bass styles... we welcome suggestions for new styles. If you have some specific style suggestions, make sure to post those in our style wishlist section, preferably with some specific song examples that we can listen to. The Jazz Bass styles all have a special RealTracks entry called '2 only', which is much less busy, but perhaps you are looking for a different style of playing.
Andrew
PG Music Inc.
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Joined: Apr 2010
Posts: 13
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Ron,
I am not much of a bass player. I have an Englehardt plywood bass that for years I would throw in the back of the pickup sans gig bag and drive it over to the weekly front porch get together. We played old time. I stopped doing that a few years ago and now mostly play standards on guitar. I can't play those bass parts very well. I can do them better on an electric with a pick, but I much prefer the authentic sound of a double bass.
I now have a copy of Biab Pro that I am evaluating for 30 days before deciding if I want to buy the Ultrapluspak. I am still evaluating Forte DXi. My computer can handle Forte DXi or Realtracks, but it is best if I don't run both at the same time. It can handle Forte DXi and Realdrums at the same time which works out well. I agree with you that the Realdrums are the best part of the real instruments (that came with Pro -- and the sax is good but I mean the accompaniment Realtracks). But my point is that I now think that I would not be able to use Garritan Jazz & Big Band on this computer since it can barely handle Forte DXi. I doubt that it could handle any of the big sample programs. And I can't add more ram; already maxed out. I really need a new computer to run these apps but if I bought one then I could not afford the programs.
Andrew, I guess I could request a style and wait to see if it ever comes out and then buy the Ultrapak, but my dislike is more about Neil Sainson's sound than the style. I wish they had not named it a swing bass because it sounds nothing like the double basses from the swing era, possibly because they used gut strings back then and did not play so much up the fingerboard which accentuates the buzzing. To me, Neil Swainson's sound is more tailored to hard core jazz where all of the instruments are the equal of each other and each tries to be noticed as much as possible, which I feel is not appropriate when backing up a standard's singer.
I also don't like the sound of the Oliver Gannon "Freddie" guitar. The style is okay but there is a lot of string rattling in the sound, like the guitar is being banged or the action is set too low. It sounds amateurish to me, so even if I were to request another style and it were produced but with the same unsatisfactory sound then I still would not want to use it.
For the moment I am sticking with Biab 2004 and using Forte DXi for the bass while I continue to evaluate the Realtracks. I like the sound of the Forte DXi bass okay and it has the advantage that I can control the note selection. I am still pondering whether it is worth the cost of upgrading mainly to get the Realdrums. I have a couple of weeks left in my evaluation period.
Thank you for the tips regarding Garritan Jazz & Big Band.
Jim
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Along with 50 new styles each for the rock & pop, jazz, and country genres, we’ve put together a collection of styles using sounds from the SynthMaster plugin!
In this PAK you'll find: dubby reggae grooves, rootsy Americana, LA jazz pop, driving pop rock, mellow electronica, modern jazz fusion, spacey country ballads, Motown shuffles, energetic EDM, and plenty of synth heavy grooves! Xtra Style PAK 18 features these styles and many, many more!
Special Pricing! Until September 30, 2024, all the Xtra Styles PAKs 1 - 18 are on sale for only $29 ea (Reg. $49 ea)! Expand your Band-in-a-Box 2024® library with Xtra Styles PAK 18! Order now!
Learn more and listen to demos of the Xtra Styles PAK 18 here.
Watch the Xtra Styles PAK 18 Overview & Styles Demos video.
Note: The Xtra Styles require the UltraPAK, UltraPAK+, or Audiophile Edition of Band-in-a-Box®. (Xtra Styles PAK 18 requires the 2024 UltraPAK/UltraPAK+/Audiophile Edition. They will not work with the Pro or MegaPAK version because they need the RealTracks from the UltraPAK, UltraPAK+, or Audiophile Edition.
New! Xtra Styles PAK 18 for Band-in-a-Box 2024 for Windows!
Xtra Styles PAK 18 for Band-in-a-Box version 2024 is here with 200 brand new styles to take for a spin!
Along with 50 new styles each for the rock & pop, jazz, and country genres, we’ve put together a collection of styles using sounds from the SynthMaster plugin!
In this PAK you'll find: dubby reggae grooves, rootsy Americana, LA jazz pop, driving pop rock, mellow electronica, modern jazz fusion, spacey country ballads, Motown shuffles, energetic EDM, and plenty of synth heavy grooves! Xtra Style PAK 18 features these styles and many, many more!
Special Pricing! Until September 30, 2024, all the Xtra Styles PAKs 1 - 18 are on sale for only $29 ea (Reg. $49 ea)! Expand your Band-in-a-Box 2024® library with Xtra Styles PAK 18! Order now!
Learn more and listen to demos of the Xtra Styles PAK 18 here.
Watch the Xtra Styles PAK 18 Overview & Styles Demos video.
Note: The Xtra Styles require the UltraPAK, UltraPAK+, or Audiophile Edition of Band-in-a-Box®. (Xtra Styles PAK 18 requires the 2024 UltraPAK/UltraPAK+/Audiophile Edition. They will not work with the Pro or MegaPAK version because they need the RealTracks from the UltraPAK, UltraPAK+, or Audiophile Edition.
New! XPro Styles PAK 7 for Band-in-a-Box 2024 for Windows!
We've just released XPro Styles PAK 7 with 100 brand new RealStyles, plus 50 RealTracks and RealDrums that are sure to delight!
With XPro Styles PAK 7 you can expect 25 rock & pop, 25 jazz, and 25 country styles, as well as 25 of this year's wildcard genre: Celtic!
Here's a small sampling of what XPro Styles PAK 7 has to offer: energetic rock jigs, New Orleans funk, lilting jazz waltzes, fast Celtic punk, uptempo train beats, gritty grunge, intense jazz rock, groovy EDM, soulful R&B, soft singer-songwriter pop, country blues rock, and many more!
Special Pricing! Until September 30, 2024, all the XPro Styles PAKs 1 - 7 are on sale for only $29 ea (Reg. $49 ea)! Supercharge your Band-in-a-Box 2024® with XPro Styles PAK 7! Order now!
Learn more and listen to demos of XPro Styles PAKs.
Watch the XPro Styles PAK 7 Overview & Styles Demos video.
XPro Styles PAKs require Band-in-a-Box® 2024 or higher and are compatible with ANY package, including the Pro, MegaPAK, UltraPAK, UltraPAK+, and Audiophile Edition.
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