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"Vocal Cadence" in Songwriting #538519 05/28/19 02:54 AM Songwriting
Joined: Aug 2012 Posts: 12,198 Florida floyd jane OP Veteran
OP floyd jane Veteran Joined: Aug 2012 Posts: 12,198 Florida	Just thought I'd throw this out for something to think about. An aspect that some developing songwriters may not have thought much about before... A number of comments in my most recent song in the Showcase (Where Do You Start), have been about the "beat" of the vocal - as Tangmo referred to it - which I think is a good way to think of it. Others mention the vocal "phrasing"... I often refer to it as Vocal Cadence or Vocal Rhythm. The vocal - or the voice, itself, actually - becomes part of "what makes a song work"... a main instrument in the sound of the song.... ...which is an important aspect of Songwriting. Much of Pop music is more about this aspect of a song than any other part. Rock, too (Folk is seldom about this. Singer-songwriter, depends on the singer/songwriter). Typically those who are best at it are, in fact, also singers and/or musician. It is a rare (talented) "lyricist only" who can get that across (in a lyric alone). There are many good examples in Pop radio. Here is one of the all-time best... Pay attention how the "singing of the words" falls on your ear. When done right, little else is needed... 150+ Songs produced using BIAB RealTracks And 50 more... and some more...

Re: "Vocal Cadence" in Songwriting floyd jane #538532 05/28/19 05:08 AM Songwriting
Joined: Aug 2018 Posts: 1,381 Tangmo Expert
Tangmo Expert Joined: Aug 2018 Posts: 1,381	What a primo example. It's not about "quantizing", is it? In this song (as well as yours) there is syncopation, and singing "against" (as opposed to completely along with) the pulses in the piano rhythm. The earlier in the songwriting process you can get that "feel", the better--no matter how you tend to write. In Floyd's song, the rhythmic groove (especially at his tempo) was wide, and he "surfed" it just as she did here...but he never went over the edge, and I've not heard him do it yet. Carole King didn't sing every parallel phrase exactly the same way...and I've heard other performances that were "phrased" differently. But no matter how she chose at the moment or in rehearsal to do it, it's right and "feels" right. And it's right because she wrote it that way. My go-to example is James Taylor's "Mexico". Another good "method" to get this into your soul is to listen to the bass, if it's an active bass-line. Latin, Funk, whatever if it is much more than thump-thump-thump. WHERE (when) the bass licks hit, how hard, and how long they hold is maybe even more important than what notes are hit. Same with a vocal in most popular music. As long as it remains musical, the rhythm of the vocal supersedes the melody even if it doesn't replace it. When melody, words (and their melodic delivery), and the rhythm of the vocal all work together...that's a good song--even with just a piano or guitar accompaniment. I'd agree with Floyd...the most important of those elements is the rhythm of the vocal. BIAB 2021 Audiophile. Windows 10 64bit. Songwriter, lyricist, composer(?) loving all styles. Some pre-BIAB music from Farfetched Tangmo Band's first CD. https://alonetone.com/tangmo/playlists/close-to-the-ground

Re: "Vocal Cadence" in Songwriting floyd jane #538576 05/28/19 09:07 AM Songwriting
Joined: Dec 2011 Posts: 14,890 GA USA Janice & Bud Veteran
Janice & Bud Veteran Joined: Dec 2011 Posts: 14,890 GA USA	Interesting thoughts and a great example! I think Diana Krall also does it well with the songs she writes. Bud Our albums and singles are on Spotify, Apple Music, Amazon Music, YouTube Music, Pandora and more. If interested search on Janice Merritt. Thanks! Our Videos are here on our website.

Re: "Vocal Cadence" in Songwriting floyd jane #538579 05/28/19 09:49 AM Songwriting
Joined: Aug 2010 Posts: 2,292 Midwest HearToLearn Veteran
HearToLearn Veteran Joined: Aug 2010 Posts: 2,292 Midwest	Man, what a GREAT topic! What has been said here is so right on. Great stuff. I love these conversations. *Edited to take out the confusion of what I said. Last edited by HearToLearn; 05/28/19 10:47 AM. Chad (Hope that makes it easier) TEMPO TANTRUM: What a lead singer has when they can't stay in time.

Re: "Vocal Cadence" in Songwriting floyd jane #538580 05/28/19 10:06 AM Songwriting
Joined: Aug 2012 Posts: 12,198 Florida floyd jane OP Veteran
OP floyd jane Veteran Joined: Aug 2012 Posts: 12,198 Florida	150+ Songs produced using BIAB RealTracks And 50 more... and some more...

Re: "Vocal Cadence" in Songwriting floyd jane #538581 05/28/19 10:07 AM Songwriting
Joined: Aug 2012 Posts: 12,198 Florida floyd jane OP Veteran
OP floyd jane Veteran Joined: Aug 2012 Posts: 12,198 Florida	150+ Songs produced using BIAB RealTracks And 50 more... and some more...

Re: "Vocal Cadence" in Songwriting floyd jane #538583 05/28/19 10:12 AM Songwriting
Joined: Aug 2012 Posts: 12,198 Florida floyd jane OP Veteran
OP floyd jane Veteran Joined: Aug 2012 Posts: 12,198 Florida	Here is a new favorite of mine. A GREAT example of "Vocal Rhythm" in writing!!! It makes this SOAR! Never knew my old man's truck could even run like that Should've known better than to take that curve so fast Daddy pulled up, I was down in a ditch He asked me why I did what I did There was this girl, drink in her hand Shootin' me a "let's get into trouble" grin I ain't never seen somethin' so fine And I was doin' anything to make her mine I was out of my mind, she was out of this world There was this girl Some folks ask me why I still pick this guitar They say livin' that life on the road won't get you very far I say man you should've been down in Tupelo Seen what was in the front row There was this girl, beer in her hand Shootin' me a "play a little Skynyrd" grin She's turnin' it up, she's turnin' me on And I'd play her anything she'd sing along I was out of my mind, she was out of this world There was this girl Yeah there was this girl Didn't know a diamond ring could cost so much (damn) Took six months on a farm 'fore I saved up All my drinkin' buddies still out on the town Wonderin' why I ever settled down But there was this girl, holdin' my hand Shootin' me a "start a life together" grin She's pullin' me in, she's straightenin' me out And now I know what love is all about I'm still out of my mind, she's still out of this world There was this girl Yeah, there was this girl Yeah, there was this girl There was this girl Songwriters: Erik Dylan / Riley Green There Was This Girl lyrics © Warner/Chappell Music, Inc, Peermusic Publishing 150+ Songs produced using BIAB RealTracks And 50 more... and some more...

Re: "Vocal Cadence" in Songwriting floyd jane #538585 05/28/19 10:26 AM Songwriting
Joined: Aug 2012 Posts: 12,198 Florida floyd jane OP Veteran
OP floyd jane Veteran Joined: Aug 2012 Posts: 12,198 Florida	Keep in mind... This is NOT about how great singers sing (and phrase a song). That's a different discussion. It's about how a song is WRITTEN using what will be "vocal rhythm" to get a lyric across. 150+ Songs produced using BIAB RealTracks And 50 more... and some more...

Re: "Vocal Cadence" in Songwriting floyd jane #538593 05/28/19 12:43 PM Songwriting
Joined: Aug 2010 Posts: 2,292 Midwest HearToLearn Veteran
HearToLearn Veteran Joined: Aug 2010 Posts: 2,292 Midwest	Originally Posted By: floyd jane Keep in mind... This is NOT about how great singers sing (and phrase a song). That's a different discussion. It's about how a song is WRITTEN using what will be "vocal rhythm" to get a lyric across. Agreed. I went a bit of tangent there; and did not want to cause confusion by adding the other elements of the singer's interpretation. Chad (Hope that makes it easier) TEMPO TANTRUM: What a lead singer has when they can't stay in time.

Re: "Vocal Cadence" in Songwriting floyd jane #538596 05/28/19 01:01 PM Songwriting
Joined: Aug 2018 Posts: 1,381 Tangmo Expert
Tangmo Expert Joined: Aug 2018 Posts: 1,381	Originally Posted By: floyd jane Keep in mind... This is NOT about how great singers sing (and phrase a song). That's a different discussion. It's about how a song is WRITTEN using what will be "vocal rhythm" to get a lyric across. Exactly. How does a person write even a second line (much less a second verse) if he/she doesn't know how it's going to be sung--the rhythm of the words. And it may include syllable count, but it's not limited to that. Inflection, strong and weak accents. How much time does it take to deliver that line or phrase or word--more-or-less a beat. a bar, two bars, three and a half bars? As many other considerations as can be brought to bear. And most importantly, WHY? What is about the lyric as a whole and a phrase or line in particular that merits/begs for/requires these considerations? Take "bubble". Why does BUUUUbble sound natural in a song, but BubbLLLLe sound wonky and awkward? Neither is the way anybody says it. Those choices are worked out in the write. That's an extreme example, but I guarantee you someone has written a song and sang "bubbLLLLe" to try to match a melody. I see that lazy so-and-so in the mirror every day. Tempo and key can be changed. Melody is malleable and is itself influenced by the rhythm of the words. The "band" can take a groove in many different directions. But the rhythm of the words in a song is what the song "is" at it's core. I contend that if a writer doesn't make those choices in the course of writing (is unable mentally or physically to "sing" those words), then he/she hasn't written a song at all. It's a poem and wannabe song-lyric. If he/she can but his/her choices have simply been sub-par, then at least it qualifies as a song. Last edited by Tangmo; 05/28/19 01:17 PM. BIAB 2021 Audiophile. Windows 10 64bit. Songwriter, lyricist, composer(?) loving all styles. Some pre-BIAB music from Farfetched Tangmo Band's first CD. https://alonetone.com/tangmo/playlists/close-to-the-ground

Re: "Vocal Cadence" in Songwriting floyd jane #538611 05/28/19 03:04 PM Songwriting
Joined: Jan 2002 Posts: 7,913 Colorado Springs, CO, USA R rockstar_not Veteran
rockstar_not Veteran R Joined: Jan 2002 Posts: 7,913 Colorado Springs, CO, USA	Some somewhat current bands and songs that I think have well crafted prosody: 1. Elbow - My favorite song by them is 'Magnificent': https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XQl5KYiiFDI 2. Kings of Leon: The End: https://youtu.be/4B-t-WDRuXQ (it's really interesting to listen to the progression of this band from noise-makers to some of my favorite songwriters with great bass lines in many of their songs. This one is pretty simple, but the prosody in the verses is great. 3. Arctic Monkeys: Do I Wanna Know: https://youtu.be/bpOSxM0rNPM Warning-suggestive imagery in the video. The verses in this one have a great loping feel, particularly with the 'false endings' in some of the phrases, where the sentence could end, but there's another vocal lyrical hook coming in that line. These guys don't win any awards for thought provoking lyrics - but this particular song and album have lots of examples of great melody/prosody/riff connectivity. 4. Death Cab for Cutie: Last couple of albums have had great 'The Smiths' and other guitar bands from the 80's UK New Wave sound - this recent single is a great one: Northern Lights - https://youtu.be/gBdh20C287Y 5. Arcade Fire: Suburban War https://youtu.be/cNdqoQWz34E Love the prosody in this one in several sections, this is like a mini-symphony in three movements. Singer isn't necessarily that great but just listen to the lilt of the lyrics. My Songs, photos, writing,etc. My Sound Cloud

Re: "Vocal Cadence" in Songwriting floyd jane #538614 05/28/19 04:48 PM Songwriting
Joined: Aug 2012 Posts: 12,198 Florida floyd jane OP Veteran
OP floyd jane Veteran Joined: Aug 2012 Posts: 12,198 Florida	150+ Songs produced using BIAB RealTracks And 50 more... and some more...

Re: "Vocal Cadence" in Songwriting floyd jane #538655 05/29/19 03:56 AM Songwriting
Joined: Feb 2017 Posts: 3,414 Deryk - PG Music PG Music Staff
Deryk - PG Music PG Music Staff Joined: Feb 2017 Posts: 3,414	This is a great video, and an awesome topic for discussion. I've always cherish vocal cadence (or vocal rhythm to the vocals) in music I love most. I know it isn't a particularly popular genre in the forums, but it's why I love hip hop and rap music. Rhythm in music in particular can make or break a song for me. Interpol is one band I love that does this particularly well. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dkpgz3uQ58U Gregory & The Hawk is another artist that scratches that itch for me. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h0rE8dI6dRg A Russian singer names Kuzina always does it for me. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QvhXqRjvCfw And a million others I can't immediately think of, but these 3 are in my heavily rotation at the moment so figured I'd share them. Cheers, Deryk

Re: "Vocal Cadence" in Songwriting floyd jane #538684 05/29/19 09:48 AM Songwriting
Joined: Apr 2009 Posts: 9,926 Middlesex, NC Guitarhacker Veteran
Guitarhacker Veteran Joined: Apr 2009 Posts: 9,926 Middlesex, NC	I worked on a number of songs with a co writer who insisted that the syllable count in the verses match exactly. Even now when I write my own stuff and work with other writers, that sticks in the back of my mind. I don't always follow that rule but mostly I try to. The topic of this thread goes beyond plain old syllable count into the rhythm imparted to the lyrics by the choice of words and how they are sung. The connection to what I said I think goes into... what you do in verse one.... you gotta do in the other verses too for it to really work well. Good topic. You can find my music at: www.herbhartley.com Add nothing that adds nothing to the music. You can make excuses or you can make progress but not both. The magic you are looking for is in the work you are avoiding.

Re: "Vocal Cadence" in Songwriting floyd jane #538746 05/29/19 04:15 PM Songwriting
Joined: Jan 2002 Posts: 7,913 Colorado Springs, CO, USA R rockstar_not Veteran
rockstar_not Veteran R Joined: Jan 2002 Posts: 7,913 Colorado Springs, CO, USA	Thanks for sharing the Charlie Pluth video, Floyd. Haven't heard of that guy, but it's a unique example. Great pop tune that certainly will move butts! Even if it sounds programmed to an extent. Love the pre-chorus and the chorus slow down of syllables while using the rhythm of the verses. Dang it's catchy. My Songs, photos, writing,etc. My Sound Cloud

Re: "Vocal Cadence" in Songwriting floyd jane #538747 05/29/19 04:18 PM Songwriting
Joined: Jan 2002 Posts: 7,913 Colorado Springs, CO, USA R rockstar_not Veteran
rockstar_not Veteran R Joined: Jan 2002 Posts: 7,913 Colorado Springs, CO, USA	BTW, My ears were about 6 or 7 years old when the Carole King song came out and seemed to be in constant rotation on the stations my parents listened to. Because of Carole's bell-like vocal tone, the repeated bah-dah-domp domp, dada dah piano riff, etc. I thought it was a sunny and happy song. Wasn't until years later that I realized the gravity of the words. My Songs, photos, writing,etc. My Sound Cloud

Re: "Vocal Cadence" in Songwriting rockstar_not #538748 05/29/19 04:24 PM Songwriting
Joined: Aug 2012 Posts: 12,198 Florida floyd jane OP Veteran
OP floyd jane Veteran Joined: Aug 2012 Posts: 12,198 Florida	Originally Posted By: rockstar_not Thanks for sharing the Charlie Pluth video, Floyd. Haven't heard of that guy, but it's a unique example. Great pop tune that certainly will move butts! Even if it sounds programmed to an extent. Love the pre-chorus and the chorus slow down of syllables while using the rhythm of the verses. Dang it's catchy. Scott - the whole album (Voicenotes) is like that. INFECTIOUS. Very much worth many listens. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EQnk-h-LCpQ&list=OLAK5uy_n4uwPMsdKXpeeyXCDgMmI-p6jdx5e3Phs 150+ Songs produced using BIAB RealTracks And 50 more... and some more...

Re: "Vocal Cadence" in Songwriting floyd jane #538749 05/29/19 04:26 PM Songwriting
Joined: Jan 2002 Posts: 7,913 Colorado Springs, CO, USA R rockstar_not Veteran
rockstar_not Veteran R Joined: Jan 2002 Posts: 7,913 Colorado Springs, CO, USA	For those interested, the free songwriting class that Pat Pattison teaches at Berklee goes into great detail about prosody as it relates to syllable choice and placement in the rhythmic structure. Thanks again to Noel96 for turning me on to that class 7 or 8 years ago. https://youtu.be/OsuAkEOODt4 gives just a little taste. My Songs, photos, writing,etc. My Sound Cloud

Re: "Vocal Cadence" in Songwriting floyd jane #538750 05/29/19 04:31 PM Songwriting
Joined: Jan 2002 Posts: 7,913 Colorado Springs, CO, USA R rockstar_not Veteran
rockstar_not Veteran R Joined: Jan 2002 Posts: 7,913 Colorado Springs, CO, USA	You know, Floyd, listening again to this song - I could totally imagine Michael Jackson doing this song. The guitar riffs, the booty shaking bass line with just the right number of notes, etc. Did Quincy Jones produce this guy? My Songs, photos, writing,etc. My Sound Cloud

Re: "Vocal Cadence" in Songwriting rockstar_not #538751 05/29/19 04:40 PM Songwriting
Joined: Aug 2012 Posts: 12,198 Florida floyd jane OP Veteran
OP floyd jane Veteran Joined: Aug 2012 Posts: 12,198 Florida	Originally Posted By: rockstar_not You know, Floyd, listening again to this song - I could totally imagine Michael Jackson doing this song. The guitar riffs, the booty shaking bass line with just the right number of notes, etc. Did Quincy Jones produce this guy? He produced himself. 150+ Songs produced using BIAB RealTracks And 50 more... and some more...

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