+1 Man that is awesome ! honestly. The only problem I see is that it looks totally professional and it might be a shock to users use to the 90's DOS GUI's to see something totally modern and professional looking from PG
Nice looking GUI. A lot of thought went I n it. It is eye appealing. As I said in another thread, I still don’t like the volume/pan sliders idea since I believe most DAW users will do all that in the DAW. Especially panning seems like a waste of time since I (most users) will do panning in the mixing phase always done in the DAW. I don’t want to mix It twice. Volume sliders if they so chose I could live with. Probably won’t use them because as soon as I get the tracks generated and they sound decent I’m dragging over. That said that is a nice looking mockup very fresh and clean. You are right Pipeline it is modern.
What is the thinking behind the freeze button since the plugin doesn’t generate each time you hit play it is already kind of frozen. What would that bring to the table?
One thing I did like that Pipeline suggested the other day was the tabs to allow the bottom half to be either chord sheet or all three pages. That is a great idea cause scrolling through the pages is a little wonky on my Mac especially. That one would add to the workflow.
It is my hope they fix the bugs this year, as the plugin is so close to stable. Then take a fresh look at the GUI for 2021 release.
Lenovo Win 10 16 gig ram, Mac mini with 16 gig of ram, BiaB 2024, Realband, Reaper, Harrison Mixbus 32c , Melodyne 5 editor, Presonus Audiobox 1818VSL, Presonus control app, Komplete 49 key controller.
Robert, you are kidding right? No volumes or pans...? Not going to even go there. Those are only your "personal preferences".
Just to give you an example, Big Boys at Kontakt, Halion, SampleTank and pretty much every other software VSTs have volumes and pans. I think they know better what great thousands of their customers (me included) will want.
About "*" button, was just something to occupy the space. Obviously, this is just a drawing. I actually would like to see user defined "custom" buttons there.
In my little fun drawing, I did think about expand/collapse of the mixer and/or chord sheet (thin bar between mixer and chords with arrows) This can also be moved up to top
P.S. I will not touch the plugin before volumes/meters and pans are added. You on the other hand can simply "ignore" them if they are ever implemented. And if they will bother you, one way is to request a completely "modular" interface so you can hide/un-hide anything you want. We had this discussion before about "modular" approach
Hey RS, glad your hanging around. This not just my preference I have spoken with many users. The plugin is not a midi based plugin like kontact or better yet EZ keys where Midi files are mixed and matched from a library. Those type VSTi were meant to be use as instruments for midi trigger in a DAW track. the BiaB plug is an extension of BiaB based primarily on RT generation to add into a DAW project. It has some midi capability it only because of midi styles.
Still I can see where some might like a volume slider to see where a track fits in the mix. I think most will just generate a track or two and mix it into their existing tracks. Panning I don’t understand. Why pan there? Your not going to drag it panned. Your going to drag it flat, dry and centered (which was a big ask we got) then use far superior tools in the DAW to process the tracks into the mix.
To me the real value to this plug in is in quick drag to DAW. I can’t imagine the average DAW user wanting to spend much time in the plugin verses the DAW environment. The beauty of this plugin to me is it is simple and easy for the DAW user who never wanted to dive into Band in a Box and wade through that learning process.
Anyway that’s my thoughts in the end it will depend on where PGM want to go with this. I really did like your mock up it look really clean. Hope you are staying safe and happy these days, I look forward to your continued thoughts in the forum.
The only problem I see is that it looks totally professional and it might be a shock to users use to the 90's DOS GUI's to see something totally modern and professional looking from PG
I had a hardy LOL from that sentence!
Unclear if the pianist is a total beginner or a professional jazz player?
64 bit Win 10 Pro, the latest BiaB/RB, Roland Octa-Capture audio interface, a ton of software/hardware
To me the real value to this plug in is in quick drag to DAW. I can’t imagine the average DAW user wanting to spend much time in the plugin verses the DAW environment. The beauty of this plugin to me is it is simple and easy for the DAW user who never wanted to dive into Band in a Box and wade through that learning process.
Excellent UI template Rusty Spoon.
Assuming most plugin users are after either quick drag of biab tracks to daw or simplified arrangements (Rob Helms), I think the proposed UI significantly improves on the first go by PG Music.
I think volume/pan sliders would be useful, but only if they link to the DAW as Mario D suggests . Otherwise its just another level of disconnection.
I'd love to be able to generate 16 tracks in one go for dumping into my daw. That alone is a great feature.
Excellent discussion. I smell crossgrade in my future..... I hope.
biab2024(Mac) Latest Build Mac OS Sequoia 15.0.1 Apple M2 pro 32GB Ram Logic Pro 11
I like the idea of the plugin. But I doubt it will ever be a part of my workflow, due to tempo sync. I don't think that plugin specs (at least VST) allow the plugin to control DAW tempo. Probably half of my projects have tempo changes during the song. The current "flashing tempo" notification is no help for this dilemma.
Chuck Wiggins
BIAB 2023 Win UltraPak, Cakewalk, Windows 10 Pro Custom AMD Ryzen 7 3700X 8-Core, Focusrite Scarlett 4x4 interface
I like the idea of the plugin. But I doubt it will ever be a part of my workflow, due to tempo sync. I don't think that plugin specs (at least VST) allow the plugin to control DAW tempo. Probably half of my projects have tempo changes during the song. The current "flashing tempo" notification is no help for this dilemma.
You simply drag a midi or realchart out of the plugin into the DAW to give the tempo map so it will sync to the tempo changes: Using Biab Tempo Change Songs in the Plugin hopefully the plugin will soon be able to import midi from the DAW to give a tempo map. The plugin also needs to follow the tempo map of the DAW on playback so tracks already generated at a constant tempo will playback to the DAW tempo map.
If you want to just drag files into the DAW and don't need sync playback and volume adjust you can use Biab DAW Plug-In Mode. You can run more instances giving more tracks, you can generate Multiriffs for a number of bars or the whole song then just highlight the bars you want and drag them in. The freeze button in the example GUI can be used when the generate to RAM is added to the plugin, so the plugin will generate the tracks directly to RAM the same as Biab giving quick synced playback and mixing control directly in the plugin.
Folks, Thank you for feedback! PG team, feel free to use design, for you, it is copyright free
Mario, Yeah, I thought it would be a good idea too to have volumes at DAW, but there is a big but (or butt if you prefer)
1)It would require "rewiring" with each different project, now multiply that with number of available DAWs and the result is endless bugs and user frustrations. I believe it would be better to have one solid, contained plugin, than the one which requires you to do customized setup each time. There was several big "modern day" plugins that worked in similar manner that you describe (using more DAW resources than internal) and all of them had issues with one DAW or another. 2)If most of the features one day are transplanted to plugin, with volumes and pans, it would be much easier to make a "standalone" shell. 3)You can get away with a single instrument - plugin track in DAW and only make new DAW tracks and drag Rt's when arrangement is complete or on demand...keeping DAW project slim.
----- mrgeeze, Please read my reply to Mario above. How do you envision volume controls to DAW? Creating a separate DAW template specifically for Plugin? Linking each individual channel of BIAB plugin manually? What if you change the RT..., you will have to locate that specific "linked" channel in DAW to adjust things? To me it sounds like a BiG mess. With volumes + pans onboard, you can work / audition arrangement independently in plugin and keep everything "liquid" before dragging.
----------- How I usually do things is I have Kontakt/Halion as an instrument track and a Midi content track going in. I adjust all my volumes and pans within these two major plugins and continue working on the project. Importing Wavs from BIAB, recording vocals and other things. ONLY when project is ready for mix, I would record everything from Halion/ Kontakt to separate DAW tracks as audio and continue with finalizing the mix. To me volumes are a must and have to be present in plugin. Pans less, but still important. Otherwise I see very little use for it.
----
P.S. Robert, not trying to be rude, but: "This not just my preference I have spoken with many users."... hmmm I have severe doubt that most, half or even 20% of actual end users would be against volumes onboard. Perhaps you were talking to folks who share your views and not the other many? It is not about mixing it "twice" it is about "hearing" what needs to be heard before dragging anything. On the bright side, that's where "custom" buttons could become handy: Drag with->original volume->dry/centered
To me the real value to this plug in is in quick drag to DAW. I can’t imagine the average DAW user wanting to spend much time in the plugin verses the DAW environment. The beauty of this plugin to me is it is simple and easy for the DAW user who never wanted to dive into Band in a Box and wade through that learning process.
I lost interest in the VST awhile back but I still like to check in on it from time to time. And I gotta say I, for one, agree with you that this interface should be kept simple and on target. Anyone who uses a professional, modern DAW to mix and master is going to want to move everything there as quickly as possible.
The problem I see in adding stuff like volume and panning is that the more complex this plugin becomes the less likely it is to ever be stable and useful.
Bingo my feelings in a nutshell. JohnJohnJohn you have made my point. All you have to do is look at the last years to see that. The idea behind this was to create tracks inside the DAW. Not to control the DAW with a simplified VSTi version of BiaB. Even the main program doesn’t control the DAW. To create inside the VSTi what everyone wants would push this plugin so far from its original design concept. It would be years in the development. If that is what PGM wants to do great give the folks that want that everything they want, but first fix the bugs here and now, and let those of us who want to use it mostly bug free do so then rename it and develop it separately. Who know what it might become.
And RS its not rude to say what matters to you I respect that, It is part of open dialog. what could be considered rude is acting like others don’t have the right to speak there mind, or their opinion is wrong cause they disagree with yours.
As far as talking with others this is not the only place I chat with folks. I have been doing this a long time and know folks on multiple sites, and many who work in audio video fields. When I show them this plugin they marvel at it. One thing they want to know is it buggy, and is it time consuming to learn. Many have said “ I have looked at BiaB, but there is too much to learn and figure out, but the plugin is interesting cause it is relatively simple ” that is what I base this on.
Last edited by Rob Helms; 06/26/2005:04 PM.
Lenovo Win 10 16 gig ram, Mac mini with 16 gig of ram, BiaB 2024, Realband, Reaper, Harrison Mixbus 32c , Melodyne 5 editor, Presonus Audiobox 1818VSL, Presonus control app, Komplete 49 key controller.
first fix the bugs here and now, and let those of us who want to use it mostly bug free do so then rename it and develop it separately.
Right on! I have worked with engineers all my life and one thing they seem to have in common is the desire to work on new stuff and leave behind things that are 80% finished! I know that is a generalization but I've seen it here too when features with amazing potential like UserTracks get almost implemented and then seemingly abandoned.
When the plugin was first released some users said it was fine how it is and others said it served no purpose as they could simply drag the tracks out of Biab into the DAW. 90% of the development so far has been getting the Plugin to work like Biab, a very short amount of time was spent to add industry standard solo mute buttons. The GUI basically stayed the same for 2 years. The double click sync every track was an after thought as there were just the drag icons there originally as it was not thought out properly and so recycled to a make do. While the Plugin was in Beta for a few days I said don't release it how it is as it will be a flop as it needs more development, when it was released there were nothing but complaints. One only needs to look back at the original posts to see the disappointment of new DAW only Studio users. EZDrummer and EZKeys are still in version 1 because they were well thought out and designed for all users in mind. How it is now with the midi sends working again it can work just like Biab using midi only, tracks are generate instantly and send to you virtual instruments in the DAW. The way I like to design things is the same as Toontrack, to cater for all users and different ways of doing things. Bad design and not keeping up with the industry standard is what has kept the PG apps in the past. The session musicians are professionals, the apps need to be also. You need to look at it from a professional view and not just a hobbyist view how the Plugin can be used. You don't want to limit the Plugin to anyone's personal limits. What Rusty has given us is an example of a professional design and not a homemade design. I pushed so hard for a decade to get the PG apps out of the 90's DOS past, lets not stop now. I have suggested so many things that were knocked, but are now implemented and used by those that knock them. Look at the audio outs in EZDrummer:
Robert, Perhaps "original concept" was limited by pushes of seasoned users who wanted something particular to their workflow? Not taking side opinions from "average" users who are non forumers (which I believe make up to 90%+ all users)
JJJ, "Anyone who uses a professional, modern DAW to mix and master is going to want to move everything there as quickly as possible."
Nope. If plugin is stable and capable I would prefer most of things "liquid" before finalizing! Same as with Halion, Kontakt, SynthFont or anything similar.
---- Since it is an open discussion... (for which I am hoping I will not be banned) Here are my 3 cents of non-real musician + non-programmer, but a side observer. Developers need serious help. And I do not mean an army of Far East coders. One person who genuinely specializes in this type of programming and who has a strong sense of software architecture, that can do things clean and fast who should be able to bake things right within 3-5 weeks in addition, coaching existing team of the "ins" and "outs" so they can continue on solid ground. Plus a graphic designer for a short 1-2 week gig to make it look pretty. Now it's the best time ever for this sort of thing. Sadly, many talented people lost jobs in recent months and I am sure quite a few will gladly take a fun "remote" gig over, how one gentleman coined the phrase, the "internets".
JJJ, "Anyone who uses a professional, modern DAW to mix and master is going to want to move everything there as quickly as possible."
Nope. If plugin is stable and capable I would prefer most of things "liquid" before finalizing! Same as with Halion, Kontakt, SynthFont or anything similar.
But in reality this plugin is not nearly as "stable and capable" as Kontakt. Nor is the GUI as user-friendly. So, given those facts, I, and I suspect most others who use pro/modern DAWs, want to get to the DAW as soon as possible.
Quote:
Since it is an open discussion... (for which I am hoping I will not be banned) Here are my 3 cents of non-real musician + non-programmer, but a side observer. Developers need serious help. And I do not mean an army of Far East coders. One person who genuinely specializes in this type of programming and who has a strong sense of software architecture, that can do things clean and fast who should be able to bake things right within 3-5 weeks in addition, coaching existing team of the "ins" and "outs" so they can continue on solid ground. Plus a graphic designer for a short 1-2 week gig to make it look pretty. Now it's the best time ever for this sort of thing. Sadly, many talented people lost jobs in recent months and I am sure quite a few will gladly take a fun "remote" gig over, how one gentleman coined the phrase, the "internets".
I agree 100%. But PGM does not seem to agree. What they have accomplished with RealTracks is simply amazing! Perhaps one of the most awesome software achievements in the history of personal computing! If the software GUI was professionally redesigned, the overall package streamlined and then completely rewritten this would be essential software for every musician and songwriter in the world! As it stands now it will remain an unpolished gem. A diamond in the rough.
Huge Thanks to PGM for RealTracks and the logic therein. And huge thanks to the music gods for DAWs that mean I can finish my songs using modern, professional software!
Thanks, Pipeline! Dragging a MIDI file into my DAW is how I currently get the tempo map imported, and it didn't occur to me to try that with a plugin MIDI track. Should have known you would have found a way :-)
Chuck Wiggins
BIAB 2023 Win UltraPak, Cakewalk, Windows 10 Pro Custom AMD Ryzen 7 3700X 8-Core, Focusrite Scarlett 4x4 interface
JJJ, "But in reality this plugin is not nearly as "stable and capable" as Kontakt. Nor is the GUI as user-friendly. So, given those facts..."
Well, I rather see it become stable and capable (and perhaps pretty too) than settle for the one that does something only half way. I was out of discussion, because I felt first release was way to raw. Recent update was a big one and in a way a good pivoting point. All I am saying, little steps will not bring it home. One more BIG push is needed to make it right, not specifically to me, but for future users.
*Volumes are NEEDED! (Pans would be nice too)
All my whining about plugin because I feel it is still young and there still a time to correct the mistakes of youth, before it is way too late. I would not write this if I did not care about it or just to argue for the sake of argument
..Here is a rendering I did of how I would like to see the plugin. Just a drawing, which I hope you find entertaining.
What if you take feedback from users to add/modify things they would use in the example GUI then using skins the user can select what they need or don't need to use. If they just want a basic thing they can hide the volume pan sliders/levels. Though the code to add simple wav playback levels/meters via the vst would be simple and basic to do as it's just adjusting the playback level of the generated wav in the local folder as it may be a lot louder or softer than other tracks, as mentioned all the time spent on the Plugin for the last 2 years was not spent on the GUI. You must have a decent GUI and not make do with something homemade. You know how VideoTrack made the Concept video and that led to the Ctr+T compact view with Tabbed icons in Biab. It has taken 2 years for user feedback to have any effect on the BiabPlugin GUI, this way it can be built here then when it's done can be implemented into the actual BiabPlugin GUI. Creating Skins
So let me run this by everyone for your thoughts. They are ready to start the 2021 version. if you notice 2.9.41 can only go a bit more before it becomes 3.0
I would love to see them spend whatever time is left this year before they move on to other projects on fixing the few little bugs left. Then we will see what suggestions, and or ideas they implement in 2021.
Here are few asks from the forums that many favor.
1. Real Synchronization with the DAW clock. ( this would require them to use the zplane time-stretch .ddl in real-time to stretch audio playback to the host for true ins sync follow the clock synchronization. ) right now it only follows until there is a change then must be reset. This is really in effect tempo mapping
2. ARA2 Chord/key communications to share or send the chord chart back and forth to the DAW. What a game changer that would be in truly tying this thing to the DAW like it is in RB but instead in Logic/Reaper/Studio one/Cubase/etc
3. Cleaned up and modernized GUI (see the ideas from Pipeline and Rusty Spoon)
4. The support for Multitrack drums or as Tobin called them stems. what a cool add in tool that could be.
5. More BiaB RT features with in the plugin. I.E. Direct in or Medley function. These have been ask for repeatedly
6. Add in Volume/Pan sliders. Many want them many don't still it they are there then you can either use them or not.
7. Tabbed bar for the chords and tracks windows. What a useful feature it cleans up workspace and adds functionality
We all know that just about every change made this year brought back bugs that were fixed earlier or even last year. Changes bring issues, issues slowly get handled. Stabilize it now with bug fixes and the develop these features for the next release now only a few months away..
I also propose that in 2021 when the new release hits there is a install option to allow the user to install the new 3.0 along side whatever stable version we end up with this year. This is so that while the growing pains of a new release are in full swing we can still use the stable one without new bugs and not having to roll back.
Last edited by Rob Helms; 06/28/2001:32 AM.
Lenovo Win 10 16 gig ram, Mac mini with 16 gig of ram, BiaB 2024, Realband, Reaper, Harrison Mixbus 32c , Melodyne 5 editor, Presonus Audiobox 1818VSL, Presonus control app, Komplete 49 key controller.
Pipeline. The tab view... (Thank you Videotrack!) I believe you were the one to show it to me I strongly disagree with the interface with those huge colorful buttons. I mentioned this in another post which fully mirrors what you said. Modular is the way to go Biab or Plugin. Display and use what you need, hide the rest. Tabbed view solved that well in BIAB, why not use same or similar idea in plugin? For example "custom" tab can be used to add custom views or functions/shortcuts.
___
Rob, If the "stabilizing" will leave ample room for future development sure! But I was under the impression from other discussions that the further you are into programming, the harder it is to go back to make room or adjust to implement core features.(I do consider volumes as a core feature)
Rustyspoon, thanks for the suggestions and graphics. Much appreciated. btw) We have a new release of the plugin 2.8.41 (June 22, 2020) that has a lot of new features.
Rustyspoon, thanks for the suggestions and graphics. Much appreciated. btw) We have a new release of the plugin 2.8.41 (June 22, 2020) that has a lot of new features.
Peter, Thank you for your feedback! Yes, I tried the latest release. It is a huge step up, but I feel it needs one more BIG push to make it prime.
Also I kindly ask you to think about the graphics. I feel that amazing piece of software is diminished by the looks. And "looks" are the easiest of all tasks to tackle. My skills are VERY mediocre, but if needed I will gladly help making buttons or such.
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