PG Music Home Forums PG Music Wishlists Band-in-a-Box Wishlist MY WISHES FOR BIAB 2021 VERSION.

MY XMAS WISHES FOR BIAB 2021.
1. in the stylepicker some style demoes assume net access.
but the problem is a lot of studios keep their studio computers off the net. like mine. for security reasons.
plz just include all demos of styles with the product. eg the usb drive. or with updates.
2. biab song start.
when a user starts a new song i would like to see immediately a message pop up.
"where do you want all user exported traks/content/midi's/drops in normal mode , and/or
when biab is plugged into a daw TO GO ?"
and the user selects a folder.
for me my song folder where also all my daw recorded traks go.
ie my central repository for the song.
3. 16 traks. yes please. but note my wish for a test app so people with underpowered computers dont overload them. see my RB wishlist.
also i would recommend a overload detector feature in case someone is trying to load too many plug ins into too many traks etc possibly on an underpowered computer.
thus reporting to a user "sorry but biab(or RB or powertraks) is detecting a possible overload condition,
please use fewer traks and/or plug ins".
whether the win api/programming environment allows for this i dont know.
if i remember heavy duty industrial apps often have this type of feature. so i'm sure it does.
it might forewarn of a possible crash situation. its just that if 16 traks is implemented, and given the way
RT's work i suspect problems might arise for some users underpowered computers.
4. i want more of the rarer real traks at different tempos.
harps was a nice idea. but eg vocals/choirs/back up singers/cellos/violins/fiddles/trumpets/general brass instruments/hornensembles/clarinets/bells/xylophones/flutes/harpsichords/and other orchestral instruments not currently in biab. of course more loops/hi Q's also.
5. for each RD , i would like at the end single hits of each drum in the set so i could more easily fix up drum
traks. like a single drum hits area the user could access.
6. i dont need it as i'm a purist and do vocs till i get them right. but i might as i get older if my vocal range
is not as high lol.
a autotune button on each trak. (eg the audio trak in biab, and the traks in RB and powertraks designated as
audio traks. )
just a one button press. if the one button auto tune dont work then ,the user should use a more sophisticated program/plug in . maybe it could be expanded also to generate
simple harmony vocs etc on traks that are in tune.
7. please see also my other wishlist posts during 2020.

thats bout it for me, because i can handle various issues as they arise in biab.
merry xmas to all pg users and staff.

respectfully.
oldmuso.

Hello, will it be possible for biab 2021 that the problems related to user tracks be solved it is essential for many of us thank you.

RE: Your Christmas wishes for BIAB 2021.

<< 1. in the stylepicker some style demoes assume net access.<<
but the problem is a lot of studios keep their studio computers off the net. like mine. for security reasons.
plz just include all demos of styles with the product. eg the usb drive. or with updates. >>
At one time, there was a download of demos available. I'm not sure when it may have last been updated but I recall it was a large download and would still provide off line users with a partial data base if it's still available at the PG Music Web site.

<< 2. BIAB song start.
when a user starts a new song i would like to see immediately a message pop up.
"where do you want all user exported tracks/content/midi's/drops in normal mode , and/or
when BIAB is plugged into a DAW TO GO ?"
and the user selects a folder. for me my song folder where also all my DAW recorded tracks go.
ie my central repository for the song. >>
BIAB does each of these options now whenever the user Saves or Saves As the song project. So by immediately saving a project after opening a new project, BIAB will generate a message prompting the user to designate a working folder for that project. In addition, according to the method the user chooses to save the project will determine whether BIAB uses a default name or a user generated name as it automatically saves and names exported audio files.

<< 3. 16 tracks. yes please. but note my wish for a test app so people with underpowered computers don't overload them. see my RB Wishlist.
also i would recommend a overload detector feature in case someone is trying to load too many plug ins into too many tracks etc possibly on an underpowered computer.
thus reporting to a user "sorry but BIAB (or RB or powertracks) is detecting a possible overload condition,
please use fewer tracks and/or plug ins".
whether the win api/programming environment allows for this i don't know.
if i remember heavy duty industrial apps often have this type of feature. so i'm sure it does.
it might forewarn of a possible crash situation. its just that if 16 tracks is implemented, and given the way
RT's work i suspect problems might arise for some users underpowered computers. >>
Here, you've made the best case I've seen for NOT implementing this often requested wish for additional BIAB Mixer Tracks. BIAB needs to remain usable to every customer and not just those that are power users or have high end expensive computer hardware.


The need for additional tracks is also somewhat of a myth because of the way RealTracks and audio files work within the BIAB Mixer aren't as ram CPU intensive as you think in regard to power. CPU's of 2008 vintage are powerful enough to generate RealTracks so there is little underpowered concern.

Except for the Audio Channel, BIAB Mixer Channels, Bass, Piano, Drums, Guitar, Strings, Melody and Soloist don't natively hold physical audio files. In fact, until a RealTrack is rendered, no physical audio file of that exact rendition of BIAB chosen audio RealTrack from that RealTrack physical audio file exists. It is a virtual track. The tracks hold data.

This function with understanding BIAB functions as a multi track recorder is a very powerful yet uncomplicated and not a CPU intensive combination that allows BIAB to work across the entire spectrum of Computers of low resource, older OS's to the most powerful computers on the market. Not having additional resource robbing visible tracks and also not extending generating time, BIAB uses preparatory algorithms and processes that allow users to create, UserTracks, Artist Performance Tracks, and for BIAB to convert and move audio files to these other seven BIAB Mixer Tracks so BIAB functions the same as a hardware multi track recorder while retaining all of BIAB's exclusive and proprietary software functions and techniques.

BIAB is just as unique and singular in comparison to hardware multi track recorders as it is to every DAW on the market. Nothing else can do what BIAB does, DAW or Hardware recorder. Think of it this way; Generating seven BIAB tracks and an Audio Track yields the exact same results as a live recording session with a Focusrite 18i20 utilizing all 8 inputs simultaneously.

What BIAB also does is provide 10 additional sub input channels per BIAB Mixer Channel to create custom instrument mixes of RealTracks using multiple methods of playback for each channel. Using these sub mixer tracks does not increase the generating power BIAB uses. They work equally as well on a 10 year old computer and OS as they do on new systems.

Simply applying decades old multi track recording principles and techniques allow a user to create first generation, no loss mix compilations of dozens of instruments the same quality and sound as if they were recorded on a 16 track, 24 track or even a 48 track physical recorder. The BIAB Mixer is capable of producing a total of 70 separate instruments in a single, first generation quality stereo audio file. While it's hard to imagine the need of 70 individual instruments, that's the upper single generation limit and the true power is not in the sum total, but how the user applies recording techniques to this total.

These sub tracks are a way the user can access BIAB pre audio track selection so that transitions, instrument change outs, solo beginnings and endings, cross fades, mutes and back to normal (unmute) functions can be programmed into the track generation rather than after the audio has been selected by the BIAB algorithm so that these events occur smoothly and correctly rather than the abrupt cut offs, incorrect chording's and such that happens when using Bar Settings.

Another plus is having the multi track technique of Bouncing Tracks exponentially expands the track count even more. Because this bouncing process today is digital rather than analog, the audio is not rendered and available to be saved as a physical file until the save function is applied, there's no degradation of the audio signal like there is in analog recording.

While I don't know what goes on behind the curtain with generating BIAB tracks and how they're programmed. It doesn't matter. Applying Multi track techniques and principles create results the same as hardware multi track recorders - meaning using the techniques work...

You can quickly and easily see how this works for yourself by creating new project, enter a chord progression, select a key and tempo and any style. Either select a Style that uses a PG Music Medley group or Select a Medley from the RealTracks Picker.

<< 4. i want more of the rarer real tracks at different tempos.
harps was a nice idea. but eg vocals/choirs/back up singers/cellos/violins/fiddles/trumpets/general brass instruments/hornensembles/clarinets/bells/xylophones/flutes/harpsichords/and other orchestral instruments not currently in BIAB . of course more loops/hi Q's also. >>[\b]
Plus one

[b]<< 5. for each RD , i would like at the end single hits of each drum in the set so i could more easily fix up drum
tracks . like a single drum hits area the user could access. >>
Most drum audio files do have single hits at the end of the file with user access.

<< 6. i don't need it as i'm a purist and do vocs till i get them right. but i might as i get older if my vocal range
is not as high lol. an autotune button on each track . (eg the audio track in BIAB , and the tracks in RB and powertracks designated as
audio tracks .)just a one button press. if the one button auto tune dont work then ,the user should use a more sophisticated program/plug in . maybe it could be expanded also to generate
simple harmony vocs, etc on tracks that are in tune. >>
Both BIAB and RB have pitch correction and in BIAB there's a fix tuning selection in the Audio Edit - Edit menu.

<< 7. please see also my other Wishlist posts during 2020. >>
I'm sure they will if you've placed them in the Wishlist Forum.

About the ‘overload condition’ discussed above, that’s possible even now with certain low-powered computers and certain RealTracks and the high-quality and fast settings in BIAB Preferences. I like the suggestion of a warning. One can also use a free CPU meter to see a problem arising.

charlie.
as always i like a nice exchange with you.
1. 16 traks.
re 16 traks. did you see pipelines graphic layout ?. that was lovely. well thought out.

the prob is charlie, you know all the "tricks" to squeeze max performance out of biab. as youve shown in your post.
(includeing useing BIAB akin to an MTR).
so do a lot of us. the problem is often new users DONT.
even some longer time users dont.

its hard enough just to get people to read manuals. (eg biab manuals.).
i found this out the hard way in industry. we would pump out lots of helpfull manuals, triks and tips
but most people STILL never bothered to read them (or the FAQ's), and thus often help deks were flooded with calls, because people didnt want to read the manuals !
when i worked in industry i found people wanted what i call "instant coffee solutions."
ie "i, the user/client have a problem, no i didnt read the manual, but i want it solved NOW otherwise i'm calling the CEO." lol.

so any OVERT feature that makes acceptance by new users fast i think is a good thing, rather than them finding out through often trial and error.

just think over the years, how many times have you posted your nice biab "triks" to help a new user ?
it shows your a nice helpful person, and kudos to you for that, and your patience in doing so.
but i feel users like rustyspoon and others have a valid wish for 16 traks.

OR MAYBE EVEN BETTER . LET THE USER DECIDE HOW MANY RT's/MIDI's/AUDIO TRAKS RECONFIGURABLE BY THE USER.
TO A TOTAL OF 16 ??
as a user would in their daw. total flexibility within 16 trak limit.

so some users might choose 12 RT's , 2 midis, and two voc audio traks.
others 7 audio traks, 4 midi traks, and 5 RT traks for a total of 16.
see what i mean ??
ie ULTIMATE USER FLEXIBILITY.
frankly i can do songs with or without it, i was just thinking of the new user.
also .
when PG pump out the manual with the usb drive in the box i think they should include an addendum like "charlies and other users tips and tricks".
2. VOC TUNING.
the prob is this stuff is hidden in menus. people have to hunt.
and then go through a choice/set up process.
the idea was a simple one button press. et voila. vocs tuned.
put the option on the mixer.
3. BIAB SAVES.
i think i maybe didnt express the wish properly charlie.
its all to do with how biab drag/drop folder works and/or when biab is used as a plugin in a daw. please read this thread.
and pipelines reply with a script.
https://www.pgmusic.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=620905#Post620905


-------------------------------------------------------------
matt.
the idea is to have a pre-emptive feature before the user gets into deep trouble, and possibly blames pg. also yes the user can employ a cpu checker a la in win task mgr.
but how many will bother ?? thus the wish.
think of it like an "early warning system." ! in industry we found this type of feature cut down sometimes on no of support calls.

best.
oldmuso.

Your description of the caveats of 16 tracks outweigh the benefits anyone has listed in any Wishlist request for additional channels. This is especially true in the latest versions of BIAB. Further as Matt addressed, older systems and CERTAIN low powered computers and CERTAIN RealTracks and the high-quality and fast settings in BIAB Preferences can result in overload conditions. In this instance Matt and I are talking about different issues of the same type. There will always be users with computer system that struggles with some aspect of BIAB, be it CPU, ram, RealTracks generations, VST's but my point was more general that users with computer systems that are older and weaker powered, PG Music has addressed these issues in the past and created options to turn off certain processes to lower CPU issues. PG Music has done a tremendous job and accomplished quite a feat in retaining all users to use RealTracks and RealDrums since their inception through this year's version.

What a disappointment it would be for PG Music to add 8 more channels to the BIAB Mixer and doing so deprive a large population of the BIAB community the ability to access this feature because their computer is too old or they have the wrong CPU on their system and no option to upgrade it. It doesn't matter and there's no benefit if 16 tracks isn't something all users can access and enjoy without it choking or crashing their system. I have no idea if adding additional tracks would cause any issues to older and weaker computer systems but this has been a popular request for years so I'm thinking there's likely some type of barrier.

<< The problem is Charlie, you know all the "tricks" to squeeze maximum performance out of BIAB as you've shown in your posts. (including using BIAB akin to an MTR). So do a lot of us. The problem is often new users DON'T. Even some longer time users don't. >>

I don't believe the problem has anything to do with "tricks", work arounds, reading the manual or that producing a BIAB project with 20 or 30 tracks is some advanced hidden feature. It really isn't any more difficult to do than anything beyond what anyone that can program a song and create an arrangement using the Bar Settings to mute/unmute tracks to make a more pleasing and dynamic than just allowing all the instruments to play throughout from start to finish. It becomes a matter of what a user wants to learn and what they want to get out of BIAB before moving tracks to a DAW. It's a simple technique that once the process for a single track is learned, the same steps are repeated over and over until an song arrangement that satisfies the users needs have been met.

Encouraging users to read the manual is beyond the scope of anything Forum members should concern ourselves with and should not have anything to do with any user choosing to learn the steps to a long time existing BIAB feature.

I also believe that it's somewhat easier for new users to apply the multi track and medley features than some long time users that have developed their own very successful workflow over a long period of time. No need to fix what's not broken.

A true benefit of the BIAB Mixer functioning as a multi track recorder is the flexibility of the sound media the BIAB Mixer Channels accept. The tracks accept MIDI, BIAB MST's, RealDrums, RealTracks, and WAV/WMA audio files. Using the Artist Performance Track and UserTrack features, any combination of these media types can be merged and mixed into a sub-mix onto a single mono or stereo track.

It's been another cordial exchange with you and you've raised valid concerns and questions.

Charlie I am a big advocator for opening up the 16 tracks that are available now. BUT I always have said that option should be a radio button option: That is the user could use those 16 tracks as they are now OR they could choose to have them opened up for whatever, i.e. MIDI, RTs, RDs, and/or loops. YMMV

About the number 16, there’s no magic there. We think in terms of MIDI having 16 channels, and it’s highly likely BIAB started that way because it was only MIDI. Then people count the tracks that appear to be used and want to bring it up to 16. I’ve posted many times, but possibly not enough, that BIAB reserves some of the tracks for guitar strings and/or harmony.

If MIDI is the model, then open up a second bank. But why stop at 32? Go to 256. But why not? The original design of the file structure, based on the limits of a certain number of allocated binary digits, is the likely answer. Maintaining backwards compatibility is essential. This, and breaking the 255 measure limit, requires redesign.

charlie.
i see your position on this subject , and you make good points.
anyhoo there is always RB with its 48 traks as an option for users.
(i just wish one could turn off the RB waveform redraws as an option. then turn them on as needed.
i find they hold me up when i'm in my "work fast creative zone" compared to biab with no waveform redraws.)

there is always this tension in various big industry segments ive worked in , between "power users" who want more and more
and people who just want the basics.

thus its very difficult for a software developer in keeping everyone happy.
ive seen every aspect of this "push pull" over the years.
its like a tug of war. its an on-going challenge for any developer.
especially as the darned OS's change.

lets see what the future brings anyway as biab/RB etc evolve.
as i said i can create songs many ways just in biab 2020.

but i think it fair to say that you and i are what i call "diggers" always delving into the depths and finding all the little tricks that might not be obvious at first glance.

for example the first thing i did when i got 2020 months ago was i created a page in a 3 ring binder , with each page headed by instrument RT name. eg harp or bass or synth, drums whatever.
then on each page i have 2 vertical columns , instrument id no, and comments/rating of each RT.
thus when i do a song , and i'm thinking what instruments do i want in this song; my binder with my comments is a handy reference. took me a month to create.
i delved into every one of the biab 2020 thousands of RT's, demoes, sounds,styles etc etc in all bb dirs in the process.

same in industry ive worked in. some people are natural "diggers" like us, and love to find that "golden nugget"
and others arent.

best.
oldmuso.

matt.
maybe its lucky 16 lol.
the only caveat i would suggest in opening things up is i can see someone with a low power computer trying to plug in
on a boatload of midi traks high cpu useage vsti's perhaps
which i think argues once again for some type of early warning overload feature.

In all due respect Matt I think it is definitely time for a redesign, one that includes more tracks, all time signatures, more than four chords per bar, etc, etc.

I couldn’t agree more, Mario.

<< Charlie I am a big advocator for opening up the 16 tracks that are available now. BUT I always have said that option should be a radio button option: That is the user could use those 16 tracks as they are now OR they could choose to have them opened up for whatever, i.e. MIDI, RTs, RDs, and/or loops. YMMV >>
<< Matt Finley: "I couldn’t agree more, Mario." >>

Mario and Matt, I agree completely with you about improvements regarding MIDI. My remarks are more focused toward audio than MIDI and with the BIAB Mixer concerning how audio can be used. BIAB makes allowance so that audio files can be manipulated to reside on any of the BIAB Mixer's Channels in conjunction with creating and importing audio through the Audio Channel. That's doesn't appear to be the case with MIDI. Regarding MIDI, it seems BIAB uses channels 2-10 so the User is somewhat limited to channels 11-16. I don't program much with MIDI so I'm not sure how BIAB addresses channel 1.

Additional channels only simplify and double all of the amazing benefits BIAB offers users access to regarding programming audio. So my opinion is to support adding channels and get the benefit of having more audio editing and arranging power than is available now. Hopefully, the new channels give the MIDI users what they desire as well. But judging solely from Users Forum posts and comments in the other PG Music Forums, many users forego taking advantage of the singular power BIAB offers that is unique to audio editing from every existing DAW, including RB in many aspects.

Placing multiple RealTrack instruments on a single channel (The Medley Feature) does not apparently stress the CPU nor take longer to generate any more than generating a single instrument. My guess to why is since at the time it's generating, no physical audio file of the specific exists. The BIAB algorithm is hard wired to point to and create markers onto the selected RealTrack audio file in the RealTracks Folder. If there are multiple RealTrack instruments, the BIAB algorithm points to that instruments RealTrack audio file in the RealTracks Folder. It operates the same as a patch change in a midi file and is data on a virtual track. Generating a track is following data instructions, the algorithm goes out and marks specific audio from the hard drive, assimilates it, plays it. No physical audio file exists until that track or song is compiled and rendered from those instructions.

Customizing RealStyles and creating MultiStyles from them that are activated by Part Markers expands on the single track Medley arrangement's ability to create professional grade renders within the BIAB program without the need to move tracks to a DAW to achieve similar results.

Using the new BIAB multi riff feature on a track that's programmed with a 4-5 instrument medley, users can now easily regenerate just the section containing either a part played by an instrument they want to change or they can decide to replace that instrument with another instrument altogether without changing or losing any of the other instruments performance. Remarkably, this can now be done faster in BIAB than it takes to open a DAW and export the individual tracks and edit these changes in the DAW. In fact, one has to return to BIAB if the user makes the choice to 'replace' an instrument with another.

Sometimes, it's mystifying what some users choose not to do in BIAB.

+1
for 16 channels of available mixer tracks (for RT/RD/MIDI).
No workarounds or "other" acrobatics!

P.S. Matt 16 is a "kind" of a magic number One simple reason, it would probably get intense for computers to smoothly (and so it does not take forever) to handle more, considering regenerations.

I think 16 is only magic because it's very early in the sequence of binary-based numbers.

This is for anyone interested, not necessarily Rustyspoon. Let me give an example of why this used to be extremely important and is not now. Does everyone remember the fear when the date changed to 2000? The Y2K problem was that some programmers had used only two digits to represent dates (like 88 or 95 to represent 1988 or 1995). In the early days of coding, every byte (character) was important when designing files. Storage devices were small and expensive. No one wanted to allocate four bytes to store a number that wasn't important, or so they thought, if two bytes would do. Many of us teaching programming surmised the problem in the early 1990s and were hired to rewrite code to avoid the problem. Thus 2000 came and went smoothly.

Why is this story relevant here? Because BIAB was designed before the early 1990s. Every byte that had to be stored on a hard drive (or earlier than that, a cassette tape), mattered. Thus we have things like the 255 measure limit. Now, we have huge relatively inexpensive storage devices which cause almost no constraints on coding. A rewrite of BIAB would be needed to allocate sufficient space for future development. It's not a unique problem.

Matt,
Agreed with some points, but here are my reasons why I believe 16 is a magic number for BIAB.
It would probably make no sense if the aim is to have a plugin based BIAB only at some point, because most likely you would be able to open 2 (or more) instances of BIAB in DAW in the future to make up any number of tracks you desire... but I sincerely hope that while plugin is being aggressively developed, a standalone will remain in place... or at least would be launchable as a standalone with shell (future Nanohost or similar) Now before I say anything further, I did have a "wish" at one point to have tracks on demand... "+"

So here it goes:

1)16 tracks will easily fit in the screen and as with most (VST) sequencers/synth/samplers it would be familiar to most users.

2)Since BIAB is mainly acoustic/electric instrument program, usually 8 tracks are enough to "make up" the backing band, however my main reasons to have extra tracks for:

a)having a different variant or regeneration of RT/RD/Midi to compare side by side with ones that are already in place or auditioning various tracks with context of composition, without ridiculous workarounds or "losing" one in the process of opening/closing.
b)use the sections of any from above, by muting unwanted while still retaining whole tracks.

3)use extra tracks for filaments: Breaks, loops, minor segments etc.

4)just use extra RTs/RDs/Midi for "fuller" band

----------------------

I am not saying that I will be against 19 or 23 tracks, I would welcome that too
However, I do believe "16" will satisfy vast majority of users.

Interesting and quite accurate.

I also worked extensively as an analyst in identifying and undertaking program changes, and exhaustive testing for year 2000 rollover. Everything was achieved successfully.

The date limitations were identified and completely resolved 20 years ago.

At that time BiaB had 8 tracks in the mixer.

20 years later BiaB still has 8 tracks. Hmmmm.

Roll on 2021...

As everyone knows I am a big proponent of a complete rewrite for many reasons. I also know that BiaB already has 16 tracks. But most are dedicated to harmonies and MIDI guitar inputs. I wonder how hard it would be to make all of those inputs available for other uses like RTs, etc. It would have to been an option so those that use them now could keep using them.

Note I know nothing about the code in BiaB so the above may be an easy option or it may be impossible. Only the programmers know that answer.

Mario, let's see what happens with the next release. I seem to recall PGM staff making a comment earlier in the year something about more tracks was not impossible. Maybe, just maybe, something might eventuate.

videotrack.
i would like to see more orchestral instruments at tempos
between 120 to 180 bpm, so i can use them in crazy rock songs.
my greates interest is the synergy of orchestral instruments
with the rock genre.

best
oldmuso.

That's a good suggestion that might be placed in the Styles and RealTracks wishlist section.