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Yeah, I know I am going to stir the pot here again. I am a believer that song lyrics should be copyrighted, but, I dont think melodies should be. Take tunes out of the copyright equation and we would have real original music all over the place again on radio. Just my 2 bits and I am sure I am in the minority here. Cliff
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Yep would make a very interesting world indeed 1000 songs different lyrics, but same melody. Think of all the time you would save playing an instrument just know the one melody and when people hear it, they could immediately try to guess what song it is from the 100's with the same melody but different lyrics. 
Last edited by musiclover; 11/10/20 07:55 AM.
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True, but, many songs are that way now, country songs of the 40's and 50's were notorious for that and no one listening seemed to mind, because, the songs became different themes, same tune.
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Most songs would not be completely copied even with no copyright, just parts pieced together much like now.
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With so few ways for composers to make a living now, you would remove one?
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At one time, composers and producers were not nearly as obsessed with copyright as we are now. Heck, orchestral music has places having whole lines copied and thought of as paying tribute -- sometimes twice or three times in a symphony.
A lot of water under the bridge between then and now. I've heard of suits where the plaintiff's case was based on "sounds too much like." The upside of that is most of the songs heard on the radio today, we don't even want to sound like.
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And if radio airplay is the goal, that’s one sure way the composers don’t get paid (in the USA, anyway). Someone else is making the money.
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Why would the melody be less copyrightable than the lyrics?
I think that musically, the melody is even more important than the lyrics.
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Why would the melody be less copyrightable than the lyrics?
I think that musically, the melody is even more important than the lyrics. Exactly! What about instrumentals? They should not be copyrighted? Lyrics without a melody is called a poem isn't it?
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I'm struggling to figure out how that would work with someone like (for instance) James Taylor, who writes both. So he would copyright his lyric but not his music?
Sorry, that makes zero sense to me.
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This subject shows that inconsistencies abound. Lyrics and music can be copyrighted but chord progressions can not. Terrestrial radio pays no royalties but satellite does (a pittance, but something).
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Surely lyrics without music are just poems?
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Terrestrial radio absolutely pays royalties to songwriters. That's where the big BMI/ASCAP checks come from.
What they DON'T do is pay the artist/record label a royalty, as is paid in most other countries. That's commonly called a "performance in a sound recording" royalty, and it's a non-starter in DC. I don't expect that to change anytime soon.
Last edited by Roger Brown; 11/11/20 06:31 AM.
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Somehow the O/P's suggestion suggests that a composer can write a melody and anyone can use it freely by just adding their own the words? No. I don't think so. This has happened in the music business before and it has been problematic (think litigation). Even people have innocently used small riffs from children's songs written decades ago, and been sued, years later. Think 'Down Under', written in 1980. Ten years after the 'Down Under' song was written, someone subsequently purchased the rights to another song, which was composed in 1932. Twenty-seven years later the connection to a small riff contained in 'Down Under' was discovered in an answer to a question on a musical quiz program, and the songwriters to 'Down Under' were subsequently sued. The outcome of the litigation actually resulted in a wonderful, talented musician eventually taking his own life. So it's hard enough for composers to remain independent, because someone will crawl out of the woodwork to get you - given a chance. Protection for composers is important. Don't give anyone an opportunity to take advantage. I wouldn't go there, ever.
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Interesting topic for discussion - I do think the whole copyright thing has gotten a bit out of hand. I've heard of the side-by-sides of cases and fail to hear it. When you start suing over a song's groove and feel...really?
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Yeah, I know I am going to stir the pot here again. I am a believer that song lyrics should be copyrighted, but, I dont think melodies should be. Take tunes out of the copyright equation and we would have real original music all over the place again on radio. Just my 2 bits and I am sure I am in the minority here. Cliff Well.... without going off the deep end.... It doesn't matter what anyone "believes" to be the case.... there are laws that supersede those "beliefs". The more appropriate question would be ...Do you subscribe to your own beliefs? Do you place your music into the public domain from the very start? Personally, I don't copyright the songs and cues I write. No one is out there waiting for me to write something and steal it. It is, however, still protected by the copyright laws of the USA.
You can find my music at: www.herbhartley.comAdd nothing that adds nothing to the music. You can make excuses or you can make progress but not both. The magic you are looking for is in the work you are avoiding.
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Yeah, I know I am going to stir the pot here again. I am a believer that song lyrics should be copyrighted, but, I dont think melodies should be. Take tunes out of the copyright equation and we would have real original music all over the place again on radio. Just my 2 bits and I am sure I am in the minority here. Cliff Well.... without going off the deep end.... It doesn't matter what anyone "believes" to be the case.... there are laws that supersede those "beliefs". The more appropriate question would be ...Do you subscribe to your own beliefs? Do you place your music into the public domain from the very start? Personally, I don't copyright the songs and cues I write. No one is out there waiting for me to write something and steal it. It is, however, still protected by the copyright laws of the USA. Well, nothing I have ever written as far as the tune goes is a problem with me for someone else to use. The lyrics a different matter. Most blues songs have pretty much the same tune, that 's why we love to jam them. I feel sure most of my tunes are peices of something I have heard before, nothing brand new. I still think a song should be copyrighted, just not sure the tune should be held as original work.
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A "song" is music. Tune, melody - semantics really. As others have said, lyrics without music isn't a song, it's a lyric or a poem.
I do believe that infringement cases have gotten out of hand, and I absolutely do not subscribe to the notion that chord progessions or rhythmic 'feels' should be covered under copyright law, but the melody is absolutely something that should be copyrighted, and infringements on them should be protected.
As for blues, a great deal of it is in the public domain, and is fair game (for good or for bad).
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A song is an entity. It's a bit like a marriage in that way. Doubt it?
Listen to an instrumental version of "Yesterday" and tell me it's not an instrumental version of A SONG. The song is "Yesterday". Arrange it differently, reharmonize it, slow it down, speed it up, embellish the melody--it remains "Yesterday".
In addition, print the lyric out, and it is the LYRIC of "Yesterday".
It isn't the lyric, and it isn't the tune that wholly makes the song "Yesterday". It simply IS "Yesterday". And that song is what is protected under copyright, such as it is.
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Yeah, I know I am going to stir the pot here again. I am a believer that song lyrics should be copyrighted, but, I dont think melodies should be. Take tunes out of the copyright equation and we would have real original music all over the place again on radio. Just my 2 bits and I am sure I am in the minority here. Cliff Well.... without going off the deep end.... It doesn't matter what anyone "believes" to be the case.... there are laws that supersede those "beliefs". The more appropriate question would be ...Do you subscribe to your own beliefs? Do you place your music into the public domain from the very start? Personally, I don't copyright the songs and cues I write. No one is out there waiting for me to write something and steal it. It is, however, still protected by the copyright laws of the USA. Yes you are right. As soon as you create a new piece of music the copyright is established. Whether you register it or not is up to you. The US Govt. charges way to much for us "normal" people to pay for every piece we create but it does not stop the law from protecting it. Just makes it harder to prove if we had to. Not that anybody is stealing anything I write either.
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A song is an entity. It's a bit like a marriage in that way. Doubt it?
Listen to an instrumental version of "Yesterday" and tell me it's not an instrumental version of A SONG. The song is "Yesterday". Arrange it differently, reharmonize it, slow it down, speed it up, embellish the melody--it remains "Yesterday".
In addition, print the lyric out, and it is the LYRIC of "Yesterday".
It isn't the lyric, and it isn't the tune that wholly makes the song "Yesterday". It simply IS "Yesterday". And that song is what is protected under copyright, such as it is.
And a follow on from this is, that has been discussed before on the forums is the misconception that though chords can't be copyrighted, if you create a fake version of the song and call it Yesterday with the unique chords to that song included (but no melody) then if it was to go to court you could well loose the copyright infringement case.
Last edited by musiclover; 11/14/20 06:37 AM.
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I'm opposed to any form of plagiarism.
You may say I'm a dreamer, but I'm not the only one.
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A song is an entity. It's a bit like a marriage in that way. Doubt it?
Listen to an instrumental version of "Yesterday" and tell me it's not an instrumental version of A SONG. The song is "Yesterday". Arrange it differently, reharmonize it, slow it down, speed it up, embellish the melody--it remains "Yesterday".
In addition, print the lyric out, and it is the LYRIC of "Yesterday".
It isn't the lyric, and it isn't the tune that wholly makes the song "Yesterday". It simply IS "Yesterday". And that song is what is protected under copyright, such as it is.
And a follow on from this is, that has been discussed before on the forums is the misconception that though chords can't be copyrighted, if you create a fake version of the song and call it Yesterday with the unique chords to that song included (but no melody) then if it was to go to court you could well loose the copyright infringement case. Which is why the chord only versions in say a Norton Fake Book collection is named "Yesterday, et. al." Which essentially says these are the chords that are found in that song and others. Since we all know chord progressions are used over and over and over in all different songs. The melody and then the lyrics make it the song we recognize as Yesterday. Same as online Jazz instruction, when they rename a standard, yet it is still the same chord progression, then improvise over it without angering the take down gods.
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Joe read this thread which appeared on the forum some time ago, especially the eighth post down and see what you make of that. https://www.pgmusic.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=591161&page=3Just because someone includes a well known song in a fake disk, without a melody (because they assume that under no circumstances are chords copyrightable) does not mean this always is the case.
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I'm opposed to any form of plagiarism.
You may say I'm a dreamer, but I'm not the only one.
Vintage
Yep The town I love so well, has a great melody to it, maybe if we write a different lyric to it, we could well have a hit on our hands.
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Well having read replies and thinking this over, I have changed my mind completely, Lyrics are nothing more than random words thrown together for a rhyme and should never be allowed copyrights!!!. Ha, just joking folks. Yeah, I still think that while yesterday, being used as an example, has it's own flavor, as a tune it would not be copied as is, to make a song, it would never sell, yesterday is too well known, and any song that is so well known would not be something anyone could reproduce exactly in the original tune and sell to the public. So that alone would keep it's autonomy. But, my suggestion still stands.
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So who gets to adjudicate which music is "well known" enough to remain immune to being copied? And what about a piece of music that is not "well known" but it clearly unique and different than anything else? See the problem with what you're suggesting? There's no practical way to do it, and I can assure you that there would be 0.0% support for something like this in the music industry, songwriting community, or the Federal government.
Kudos to sticking to your guns on your suggestion, it just happens to be one that has no basis in law and would never happen in a real world scenario.
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1:Kudos to sticking to your guns on your suggestion, 2:it just happens to be one that has no basis in law and would never happen in a real world scenario. 1:Yes, and 2: (hopefully) Yes.
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Joe read this thread which appeared on the forum some time ago, especially the eighth post down and see what you make of that. https://www.pgmusic.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=591161&page=3Just because someone includes a well known song in a fake disk, without a melody (because they assume that under no circumstances are chords copyrightable) does not mean this always is the case. I think the recent stairway to heaven case is a good example. That chord progression, even the way it was played in that song, has been used numerous times. One could say Led Zep stole it from My Funny Valentine, or any number of other standards that have the exact same progression. The plaintiff in this case said they stole it from them because it sounded like their song. They ended up losing. Rhythm Changes (I Got Rhythm). I could list thousands of examples. Without the melody they are just chord progressions. How many songs have II V I, or I vi ii V progressions? There is a great comedy act band that plays the same progression over and over and sings the different songs that used it. It is funny and true. I agree there could be a case where a chord progression is so unique, never been used before, that the song is instantly knowable without a melody or lyric, but I just can't think of any right off. Doesn't matter too much to me anyway as I have said before nobody is clamoring to steal anything of mine!
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Who gets to decide?
A jury of your peers, after being persuaded by the judge and attorneys.
You can find my music at: www.herbhartley.comAdd nothing that adds nothing to the music. You can make excuses or you can make progress but not both. The magic you are looking for is in the work you are avoiding.
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To be clear:
There is a colossal difference between a chord progression and a melodic passage.
I can use the C-Am-F-G all day long in writing and not be infringing. On the other hand, if (over the same chord progression) I write a song with the same melody as Buddy Holly's "Everyday", I could (and should) get my butt sued.
Courts have erred, in the opinion of many, in applying too broad of an infringement brushstroke over chord progressions and "feels". Several such cases are under appeal and will probably be overturned (if common sense prevails).
Just a point of clarification to hopefully make apples to apples comparisons and conversations.
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To be clear:
Courts have erred, in the opinion of many, in applying too broad of an infringement brushstroke over chord progressions and "feels". Several such cases are under appeal and will probably be overturned (if common sense prevails). This.
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I looked into the history a bit. One reason we see royalty getting in on it was because the Kings were the authorities. What was happening in the early days of printing was people would go to great expense to publish a book only to have copycats produce the same thing and pirate it for cheaper. It reached a point where investors were no longer interested. So, really, the original European copyrights were to protect the businessmen and assure a supply of books. The King used his authority for the benefit of the nation.
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There is a reason that the laws are written the way they are. It would be impractical to copyright chord progressions. Melodies are unique. With chord progressions there are often many many songs that utilize the exact same chord progression.
As far as legal copywrite protection goes...I like what my old music biz professor said, 'court is not fun".
It is arrogant to think you need to legally copywrite.
No way will it ever come into play unless you are very well known.
And even then...it is still often NOT worth doing because of the legal costs.
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Yeah, I know I am going to stir the pot here again. I am a believer that song lyrics should be copyrighted, but, I dont think melodies should be. Take tunes out of the copyright equation and we would have real original music all over the place again on radio. Just my 2 bits and I am sure I am in the minority here. Cliff The Copyright Office of the Library of Congress and Title 17 of the US Code do not agree with you. Why would the melody be less copyrightable than the lyrics?
I think that musically, the melody is even more important than the lyrics. You are entitled to your opinion but you are quite wrong on this. See my previous paragraph. In February, I may have more to say about this for reasons that will be clear if I decide to weigh in again. I might even explain my last statement. It's still January, however.
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Ask sales and support questions about Band-in-a-Box using natural language.
ChatPG's knowledge base includes the full Band-in-a-Box User Manual and sales information from the website.
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Update your Band-in-a-Box® 2025 for Windows® Today!
If you’ve already purchased Band-in-a-Box® 2025 for Windows®, great news—a new update is now available! This update introduces a handy new feature: a vertical cursor in the Tracks window that shows the current location across all tracks, and more.
Discover everything included in this free update and download it now at https://www.pgmusic.com/support_windowsupdates.htm#1124
Video: Band-in-a-Box® 2025 for Windows®: Boot Camp: The AI Lyrics Generator
With Band-in-a-Box 2025® for Windows®, we've introduced an exciting new feature: the AI Lyrics Generator! In this video, Tobin guides you step-by-step on how to make the most of this new tool.
Band-in-a-Box® 2025 for Windows®: Boot Camp: The AI Lyrics Generator video.
Check out the forum post for more information.
Video: Band-in-a-Box® 2025 for Windows®: Using VST3 Plugins
Band-in-a-Box 2025® for Windows® now includes support for VST3 plugins, bringing even more creative possibilities to your music production. Join Simon as he guides you through the process in this easy-to-follow demonstration!
Video: Band-in-a-Box® 2025 for Windows®: Using VST3 Plugins
Join the conversation on our forum.
Video: Band-in-a-Box 2025 for Windows: Using The BB Stem Splitter!
In this video, Tobin provides a crash course on using the new BB Stem Splitter feature included in Band-in-a-Box 2025® for Windows®. During this process he also uses the Audio Chord Wizard (ACW) and the new Equalize Tempo feature.
Video: Band-in-a-Box® 2025 for Windows®: Using the BB Stem Splitter
Check out the forum post for some optional Tips & Tricks!
Congrats to Misha (Rustyspoon)…downloaded/installed a full Audiophile 2025!
Breaking News!
We’re thrilled to announce that Rustyspoon has made PG history as the very first person to successfully complete the download and install of the full Band-in-a-Box 2025 Windows Audiophile Edition (with FLAC files)—a whopping 610GB of data!
A big shoutout to Rustyspoon for stepping up to be our test "elf!"
Thank you for your support, Rustyspoon!
Band-in-a-Box 2025 for Windows Videos
With the launch of Band-in-a-Box® 2025 for Windows, we're adding new videos to our YouTube channel. We'll also share them here once they are published so you can easily find all the Band-in-a-Box® 2025 and new Add-on videos in one place!
Whether it's a summary of the new features, demonstrations of the 202 new RealTracks, new XPro Styles PAK 8, or Xtra Styles PAKs 18, information on the 2025 49-PAK, or detailed tutorials for other Band-in-a-Box® 2025 features, we have you covered!
Reference this forum post for One-Stop Shopping of our Band-in-a-Box® 2025 Videos - we will be updating this post as more videos are added!
Band-in-a-Box 2025 for Windows is Here!
Band-in-a-Box® 2025 for Windows is here, packed with major new features and an incredible collection of available new content! This includes 202 RealTracks (in Sets 449-467), plus 20 bonus Unreleased RealTracks in the 2025 49-PAK. There are new RealStyles, MIDI SuperTracks, Instrumental Studies, “Songs with Vocals” Artist Performance Sets, Playable RealTracks Set 4, two new sets of “RealDrums Stems,” XPro Styles PAK 8, Xtra Styles PAK 19, and more!
Special Offers
Upgrade to Band-in-a-Box® 2025 with savings of up to 50% on most upgrade packages during our special—available until December 31, 2024! Visit our Band-in-a-Box® packages page for all the purchase options available.
2025 Free Bonus PAK & 49-PAK Add-ons
We've packed our Free Bonus PAK & 49-PAK with some incredible Add-ons! The Free Bonus PAK is automatically included with most Band-in-a-Box® for Windows 2025 packages, but for even more Add-ons (including 20 Unreleased RealTracks!) upgrade to the 2025 49-PAK for only $49. You can see the full lists of items in each package, and listen to demos here.
If you have any questions, feel free to connect with us directly—we’re here to help!
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