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Songwriting
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Joined: Apr 2020
Posts: 309
Journeyman
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Journeyman
Joined: Apr 2020
Posts: 309 |
No offense guys but I think I'm in my own lane on this one. It seems like a lot of folks in the forum think a "good" song is a "Sad" song. In my view nothing is further from the truth. I think a good song is a song that resonates with the audience. Generates a "connection" whether that be Happy, Sad, Argumentative, introspective, etc... When you've written a song where the listener sings the "Hook" subconsciously as it's playing. Not the verse but the hook. There are lots of uptempo songs that are GREAT songs played worldwide. Think Earth Wind, Fire, Chicago, Hall and Oates, etc... Those musicians still generate thousands in royalties every year because they make folks feel good when they hear them. And "NO Pianobilly, I respectably disagree. I think you need more than a pencil and paper and musical education to write a good song. That may work in your genre but there are lots of genres where its just not the case. Some songs are great because of the drum beat, guitar riff, horn section, etc.. and of course if the song is vocal driven nothing makes a song resonate like a great vocal performance. You can have the best lyrics in the world (which few listeners really care about) but if the vocal stinks the song stinks. That's just sad but true. There's that old American Bandstand adage ... "It's got a good beat and you can dance to it" :-) I have a song that's trending worldwide on iTunes, Deezer, and Amazon and Spotify right now. It's not BIAB. The vocals are flat and not balanced, the mix is average, the song is a bit silly but it's resonating purely because of the hook and the positive energy. I've received a lot of great comments. I thought the song was ok but audiences are connecting and telling me they think it's pretty good. http://itunes.apple.com/album/id1454291240?ls=1&app=ituneshttps://www.amazon.com/Roll-With-It/dp/B...lMMIbLzEEbkZmywhttps://open.spotify.com/track/4ZVYqEGzUOJTgGyOcWEE6q?si=4a1f8327225c4f3bBecause of the response I "think" I've written a good song :-) Hope this message doesn't rub anyone the wrong way. It's just an opinion from another perspective. The funny thing Henry is.... I went to a songwriting forum in LA back in 2009 I think it was....it was put on by TAXI and it's done yearly. It's called the Rode Rally and one of the things they did in one of the many classes there was to examine the hit, meaning #1 songs of the past year. They broke them down by tempo, key, topic etc.... to get a feel for what the people were listening to and liking, so that we as writers had a better idea what we should be writing. For years, I've heard it said.... you need to write uptempo happy songs. Stay away from the sad slow stuff and especially the ballads. Don't write ballads because no one wants to sing them or listen to them. Well, this survey decided that the majority of the last years #1 hits for that year were in fact over 50% ballads and a number of those were sad songs. Herb, I don't disagree with you. I'm sure you're totally correct with what they said. But that was 2009. Also I would like to say that (and this is a guess) even if over 50% were number 1 I'm willing to guess that the majority of the top 10 were not. I did a quick check on Top 100 singles for 2009 and the chart was dominated by people like Black-Ryed Peas, Kanye, Beyonce, Lady GaGa, Flo Rida, etc.. Not exactly ballad folks. For example (and I know this is Billboard) but of the top 100 longest leading number one hits of all time only 3 were ballads (Mariah Carey, Adele, and Elton). For 2020 of the top 10 songs (Billboard) I think only 2 were ballads. My comment was not about number one songs but more based on the performance of songs overall.
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Songwriting
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Joined: Apr 2013
Posts: 8,464
Veteran
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Veteran
Joined: Apr 2013
Posts: 8,464 |
<< When do you know that you have written a good song? >>
According to the numbers, statistics and put up by both Mr. Henry and Herb, unquestionably the elite and standout best songs are ballads.
The charts are dominated by people like Black-Eyed Peas, Kanye, Beyoncé, Lady Gaga, and Flo Rida who are the best 'talent' that corporate music can buy and produce.
Mariah Carey, Adele, and Elton each have an extensive list of songwriting credits and stand tall alone as the top 3% of such a huge and lucrative market. That's indistinguishable from the economic one percenters that have most of the money...
By the numbers and the performance of songs overall as you guys have detailed, 50-97% of songs that are 'good' have great hooks, beat, feel or sometimes lyrics. The elite songs are ballads.
BIAB 2025:RB 2025, Latest builds: Dell Optiplex 7040 Desktop; Windows-10-64 bit, Intel Core i7-6700 3.4GHz CPU and 16 GB Ram Memory.
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Songwriting
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Joined: Apr 2020
Posts: 309
Journeyman
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Journeyman
Joined: Apr 2020
Posts: 309 |
<< When do you know that you have written a good song? >>
According to the numbers, statistics and put up by both Mr. Henry and Herb, unquestionably the elite and standout best songs are ballads.
The charts are dominated by people like Black-Eyed Peas, Kanye, Beyoncé, Lady Gaga, and Flo Rida who are the best 'talent' that corporate music can buy and produce.
Mariah Carey, Adele, and Elton each have an extensive list of songwriting credits and stand tall alone as the top 3% of such a huge and lucrative market. That's indistinguishable from the economic one percenters that have most of the money...
By the numbers and the performance of songs overall as you guys have detailed, 50-97% of songs that are 'good' have great hooks, beat, feel or sometimes lyrics. The elite songs are ballads.
Charlie Fogle, Herb Hartley - Thanks for the replies. The discussion is great. My only position was that I felt that "GOOD" songs (which was the subject at hand) do not have to be sad songs and it "appeared" that most of the responses in the forum were based on sad songs. My only point was that I think a "GOOD" song is a song that creates a "connection" with the listener and that did not necessarily mean "sad". It could mean a lot of other feelings. Like you said Charlie: "great hooks, beat, feel, etc.." One thing I will say is that Ballads do tend to stand the test of time whereas uptempo songs are snapshots and don't usually have the same "shelf life" as beats change, tempos change, etc.. Also usually ballads that stand of test of time usually have truly outstanding vocalists. Uptempo songs .. not so much :-)
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Songwriting
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Joined: Apr 2013
Posts: 8,464
Veteran
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Veteran
Joined: Apr 2013
Posts: 8,464 |
I absolutely agree 100% Mr. Henry. There have been plenty of songs written, arranged, produced, performed and posted here on the PG Music Forum that were constructed with BIAB audio content that had they had the support, backing and push from corporate commercial record labels could be and would be in the Billboard top 100.
I think a "GOOD" song is a song that creates a "connection" not only with the listener, but also that has a connection with a major label distributor.
BIAB 2025:RB 2025, Latest builds: Dell Optiplex 7040 Desktop; Windows-10-64 bit, Intel Core i7-6700 3.4GHz CPU and 16 GB Ram Memory.
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Songwriting
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Joined: Apr 2017
Posts: 1,472
Expert
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Expert
Joined: Apr 2017
Posts: 1,472 |
… There have been plenty of songs written, arranged, produced, performed and posted here on the PG Music Forum that were constructed with BIAB audio content that had they had the support, backing and push from corporate commercial record labels could be and would be in the Billboard top 100.
… That model, unfortunately, is dead. If you want to make money in this business, you have to do it yourself.
BIAB 2024 Audiophile, 24Core/60CoreGPU Core M2 MacStudioUltra/8TB/192GB Sonoma, M1 MBAir, 2012 MBP
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Songwriting
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Joined: Aug 2018
Posts: 1,381
Expert
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Expert
Joined: Aug 2018
Posts: 1,381 |
How my immediate friends and family react is certainly not unimportant or meaningless to me. The earliest music criticism I received was from my grandmother, commenting on a song I'd written before my age was in double digits. I was certain the thing would change the world of music and the lives of millions.
She said it was "cute".
She was much more right than I was. If there is any remembrance of that piece of song-writing, it remains only that it was cute. The rest of it is long forgotten even by the boy who wrote it, save a couple of lines--and he can't remember at all how it went.
Then there was that year when I was more filled with naïve enthusiasm than today, and gifted my entire Christmas shopping list with a full-to-the-brim CD of originals. It may be true that they were accepted with strained smiles and atta-boys designed to encourage my enthusiasm (or at least shield me from embarrassment), but I have no illusions that they were received by anyone with any more genuine appreciation than if they had been handed a pair of red Christmas socks...and enjoyed just as often (once or less) before being shoved to the back of the sock drawer. Out of a mixture of guilt and pity.
So it means a lot to me when any member of my most apathetic yet reachable audience has and can name and sing (or dance) along with a personal favorite. That's very good indeed.
No, the most unreliable audience response comes from those with something to sell.
Last edited by Tangmo; 02/23/21 12:14 PM. Reason: proofread
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