PG Music Home Forums General Discussion Songwriting New Songwriter Song Feedback Forum Needed?

Hey, this is kind of an informal poll, of sorts.

I have seen scattered comments here and there about the "official" showcase forum--and some comments make sense. A lot do.

Here is my "short version" of what I think has happened.

The Showcase Forum seems to have turned into a kind of poster-managed, totally egalitarian "PG Radio" place--and a free for all. (Though I wish more than just a few folks made it to PG Radio--but that's a topic for another day.)

So, yes I get it: Band-in-a-Box is a lot of fun, we are still in psychological lockdown, people are bored, they want to show off their stuff, maybe had too much to drink and posted 5 songs in an hour. I get it. It's probably better and safer to post too many user showcase songs in an hour than drive your car into a telephone pole. Way better. So post away!!

BUT--there are some of us who maybe post one or two songs a month who are looking for song construction feedback, or mixing feedback to use on stuff we are putting onto albums and such. So we are not looking for attaboys or pats on the back, just specific tips on what we might do better, among a smaller group of folks who are giving really careful listens to a much smaller batch of songs over the course of a month--with "professional" feedback rules, and a code of conduct, I guess you might say.

I was wondering if anyone else has ever thought of this.

I mean, I love the wild, wild west free for all that is the showcase, don't get me wrong, but I have a REALLY hard time keeping up and filtering because there is SO much stuff. Maybe that is as it should be--kind of like a radio station.

(Maybe some kind of like function would make it easier to listen to a lot of stuff and just say "Hey I enjoyed it!")

But for works in progress, where REAL feedback is sought and asked for (as opposed to hugs and high fives and a really fun night on the town) would it make sense to have a separate forum for songwriting song feedback only???

Hope this makes sense.

Let me know if it does, and if anyone else has ever thought about this.

"Attaboys" and such have their place and so does constructive criticism. My question is how is a listener supposed to know which the poster expects? I seldom see requests for critical analysis in User Showcase posts.

I firmly believe it is up to the poster to share their expectation with the audience. If a poster wants feedback on the song lyrics, say so. If a poster wants feedback on instrumentation, song arrangement or a song mix, let us know.

It also helps to give a little background about your knowledge or skill level. Perhaps the poster is comfortable with jazz but this is the first time trying to create a rockabilly song; that's nice to know. Maybe the poster has been a working musician all their life but everything recording is new.

I'm pretty sure if any kind of analysis is requested it will be given but I don't think there is an expectation in this forum to provide it unless it is first requested.

I want to be clear on the question I asked Jim.

I know Attaboys are important. They are fun to give and receive. In a place where people are sharing songs they are proud of and just having fun.

All I am asking, is this:

Is there a reason or a place to have a SEPARATE forum for songwriting feedback that has a different set of rules, where people do spell out what their concerns are, what their goals for songs are, and what they want in feedback in order to improve a work in progress.

The existing showcase seems more like a place of joy where people are just having fun, and sharing, and that is great.

Also, I do believe some kind of "like button" there might be of use, given the avalanche of material. It is just a thought. Not to take anything way. Just to add another option. And again, just a thought.

What I am asking is whether anyone else sees value in a separate forum that is more focused on songwriting structure, rewrites, song development, and so forth, in a smaller population with a more limited scope.

Not to take away from the current showcase, which again, seems to be a place for people to happily showcase the FINISHED songs they are proud of among friends.

Hope that clarifies.

Also, one thing would seem to be a cardinal rule for the idea I am thinking of:

You really wouldn't join in such conversations unless you yourself were posting songs that you obviously had put a lot of work into and had also established yourself as a trusted and trustworthy mentor of others.

Hi David,

First, I assume there are some people that have the time to listen to most of the songs that are posted.

That is something I don't have the time or will take the time to do. I have a serious interest in music but I also have many other things that I like to do.

There is a wide variation in skill sets among the people who post here. Some of us have a very limited understanding of all this home studio world technology. Some of us are not even musicians, to begin with.

Put all that in one pot and it sort of turns into a jam session. There is such a thing as a Pro jam session where one needs to be invited to play but that is a bit too exclusive for this site.

The comments in the User Showcase have the tendency to be of the "Attaboy" type. I think for the most part people are trying to be kind.

The whole BIAB concept tries to provide a place for all levels of musical ability and interest.

The forum provides a place to ask questions, both serious and frivolous. It is a place to escape the isolation most of us feel, something to feel a part of.

I think it would be difficult to get many people to buy into the idea of "You really wouldn't join in such conversations unless you yourself were posting songs that you obviously had put a lot of work into and had also established yourself as a trusted and trustworthy mentor of others."

I personally would like to see something like you are proposing even if I were not qualified to join in.
That is just me David and I would guess I would most likely be in the minority. I wish it would be on Zoom live and in color...lol

I would love to have a place to go to where I could ask serious questions. I would love to be able to ask if someone could play a piano part. I would love to have a place where I could say I have an idea for a song. Anyone here interested in working together on this?

We had a site like that in Dallas, Texas but it only lasted a couple of years. It was generally for local musicians, many of which knew each other and got to play together live.

I have listened to a lot of your songs. You do good work and it is obvious you have some serious training.

All the best,

Billy

I follow participants as time permits. Some have read that as being "clubby,"
but that is not it. Once and a while I see a name with high views & I'll check out the performer. There are so many contributors, a good thing.
I also tend to "attaboy." The reason for that is to register to the musician that people are listening, that we care.
David's idea is worth discussing with the idea in mind of coming up with an answer to the issue he has raised.

"The User Showcase is an area where users of PG Music products (e.g. Band-in-a-Box or RealBand) can post links to their original song compositions, for others to listen to."

Ole man ramblings (rants?) in no particular order:

I think PG Music above well stated the purpose of the forum and that most members adhere to it.

The user forum is IMHO an opportunity for PG Music to, well, showcase what members are doing with their products and I think it does a fine job of that...a good business model.

"Too many" attagirls and attaboys is a heckuva lot better than the snarky comments I see on so many other forums. I have served as the admin of a forum and a moderator on a very large forum and I find the forums here light years ahead of most regarding civility, moderating and, yes, helpful information.

There is a songwriter forum ... oh wait that's what I'm typing on

A like button would (again IMHO) opinion serve no use other than to drastically reduce the number of comments and as with FaceBook result in folks flipping through the post and hitting "like" -- often with no notion of what the content is.

Guess I'm the odd man out but through my decade on the showcase forum I have learned more about mixing and mastering and songwriting than I ever dreamed and I started in a studio in 1965. Admittedly a lot of it has been through friends made on the forum and subsequent off forum contact. But sans the forum that would never have happened. We came to the board as a couple of hardcore bluegrass pickers and evolved into blues rock...and it's been a fun journey that I owe to the forum.

We and quite a few others always ask for comments. We follow PG Music's forum rules and post specifically what equipment, fx, were used in the production (although many do not).

We "keep up" on the forum by focusing on those that actively participate ... more specifically those that join the community and participate in threads other than solely their own. There is no rule for attaboy/girls...if you don't enjoy the songs from a poster why not just move on and focus on what you like and can learn from or help the poster possibly improve?

Having blathered all that a forum specifically to parse out aspects of songwriting and production is an interesting idea. The potential "issue" I see is whether or not it would evolve into a place where BiaB might not even be mentioned. And in that case surely there are other forums around the net to discuss same.

PS I'm using generic "you's" in the above, i.e., not preaching to anybody on this thread ... just doing the aforementioned ramble

Bud

David, this is a catch 22 situation. In essence you are asking for a "Casual Review Showcase" and a "Critical Review Showcase". This is a good idea but could lead to difficulties. I have seen wars break out over "critical" reviews on other sites; one must have very tough skin when posting a song for criticisms.

Plus who does the critical reviews? How would a jazz musician give a critical review of an ambient song? It could get very difficult. There are other sites that can evaluate your songs, Taxi is one. There pros can do the evaluations.

I have seen a number of constructive criticisms welcomed on the current showcase forum. As I have said before all of my posts are open for constructive criticisms.

I can see both sides of the issue on this suggestion.

Yeah Bud, I am just thinking out loud and rambling too.

I see all of your points.

I guess what I am saying is that the showcase is a place where people go to post stuff they are proud of, and just to have a good time with their friends.

I just go there to ENJOY stuff, wave my hand, and give an encouraging word.

However, it might be good--just as an idea--to have a place where people gather for the sole purpose of examining a song for areas of improvement before the final mix or final take.

The danger area I see is the appearance of blowhards who are experts in all things, but have never posted a single tune.

I remember another forum I joined for about two weeks (you know which one) where this guy showed up out the blue spouting on and on about his superior knowledge in EVERYTHING and writing two-page manifestos tearing everyone down.

Then when he posted HIS first tune under great pressure, it was...well, you remember I am sure.

Mario,

You are right, it is kind of a Catch-22.

As I posted to Bud just now:

"The danger area I see is the appearance of blowhards who are experts in all things, but have never posted a single tune."

I know this would NEVER happen on Band-in-a-Box though. Never. Ever. Just impossible.

Oh...wait....

David, Mario, the total talent team (J/B), jim , billy, ed and all other users.

these pg forums are the only ones i'm on re the net. for several reasons.
one being..how can i put it...the largely "friendly" atmosphere.
and the other mainly being i'm busy with family life and creating songs for "s's" and "giggles". lmao.
i'm not sure another forum is needed.

i have no interest with various social media sites.
frankly i dont "get" posting every other hour or a couple of times a day what i might be doing on a social media site.
"gee folks i just brushed my teeth".lol.

so far in my short time on the pg user showcase forum , i'm rather impressed.(specially lots of nice friendly people.)
i post original songs looking for feedback , whether positive or negative.
because in many respects , when one is a lone songwriter like moi, one can lose focus.
sometimes a song one might think is good , others might not.
and a song one might think is bad, others might dig.
thus i feel other peoples opinions are a valuable input to the lone songwriter.
the above point is no different than what some studios used to do in the past and drag people off the street to offer a perspective on a song. i can remember sweating for ages once in a big studio, thinking i had done a great tune; only to be humbled by the "man off the streets" perspective.

one thing , i DO LIKE about the user showcase is the "collegial" atmosphere.
i would leave if it ever became like some very fractious net forums. cos i'm a person who likes friendly and happy nice places.

i think also its obvious there are going to be people on the showcase with many different skill levels.
from beginner to advanced. but thats good too, cos more advanced users can help some of the people possibly new in makeing their songs better. nothing bad about that.

even this old dog whose been around the block a few times keeps an open mind as to new ideas and techniques.
frankly i'm just a happy lad to still be around creating crazy songs.

i hope i make some sense.
best
always friendly and happy oldmuso.
ps if you think one of my songs "sucks"...lmao.
JUST TELL ME. I CAN TAKE IT AND WILL TRY N DO BETTER NEXT TIME.

There is an additional forum tool no one has mentioned, the private message. I can totally see a poster reaching out by private message to another forum member and asking for critical feedback. My guess is the respondent will be so flattered to be asked their opinion that they will take the time needed to give a more considered opinion.

David, you mention a songwriter's section but what about other song facets like arrangement, instrumentation, recording and mixing? Where does it end?

Indeed.

I'm all for having a place where everyone, regardless of skill level, can post and not be blasted off the internet. I think the Showcase does an excellent job in accomplishing this and providing that safe place. Much of that is due to the great folks we have here.

The showcase is a useful area that lets everyone post and if they ask or not, critiques can be given. I have been taken to task by several here, who shall remain nameless, for offering my thoughts and ideas on how they might improve either the production of a tune or the different aspects of the song itself or any of a number of other issues I heard in the song. Some were in open forum and others PM'd me to unload their cargo. So.... as a result, I cut back on my comments, critiques and advice and sure, I still listen to more than I comment on, but I tend to not comment or simply say "good job". And that made some others mad.... "why don't you comment on my songs?" kind of thing. Damned if you do and damned if you don't. I invite critiques and quite often , people give them even when I don't ask and for the most part.... they are fairly accurate. I hear a click at such and such a point, too bright, not bright enough, vox too low, etc.... We have folks here with good ears. I listen to the advice from the folks who have posted their work, showing that they actually know what they're talking about. The others, I take with a grain of salt or simply ignore.

We do in fact have a Songwriters forum which is sadly, underused for it's intended purpose. I thought it would be a good area for folks looking for help with writing, or perhaps looking for someone to collaborate with either musically or in writing a song, could find that help. I don't see that happening often. I think I recall a few posts of the intended purpose throughout the time it has been here. I have also approached a number of folks here to ask if they'd like to help me on a tune. Excuses. I know folks are busy. But again, that tends to curb one's enthusiasm to approach those folks after you get several excuses in a row.

The folks I have worked with here have been absolutely a joy and a pleasure to write and record with. I'll continue to make myself available to collaborate, and to offer my skills to like minded individuals. After all, it's all about the song and the process of writing and recording it.

Just a few random thoughts......

Howdy Jim....

I think that's a very good point to mention.
If one does approach someone in that manner they've obviously listened to some of their material and thought highly of it enough to ask for academic and creative critique.

A more 'considered' opinion...AND/OR...a more candid one.

Understanding the positive intent by David it will always be a dual edged sword.
Many who desire honest feedback aren't going to hear what they want to hear from many commenters.
Hence....I'm very selective about which songs I may decide to comment on and choose my words carefully.
If my opinion of a song does not match with the masses (which is frequent) that have already commented I keep my mouth shut.
We're all adults here and likely want to improve on our song writing skills.
So....gratuitous, patronizing 'atta boys' (especially in this context) doesn't work for me.
Besides....someone may listen to one of my songs and think "what do you know, your songs suck"

Song writing is very personal creative endeavor.
As I've mentioned many times over the years....one must have the skin of a snow tire if one chooses to put their creative efforts up for the world to hear.
We have to accept ALL comments whether complimentary or critical regardless of the personal subjectivity (which is OK) from the source.
We should have no expectations when we upload a song for others to hear.

As far as the newly suggested forum addition?
I'm mixed. (no pun intended)

I wish all the best in their song writing pursuits.

Have a great day everyone....

It's gratifying to know we come off as a friendly bunch in a snark-free zone. From my years of being here, I can attest that is not entirely by accident. I haven't seen it get so bad the moderators have had to step in, but I have seen trolls come in looking to start it up and quickly leave upon discovering folk here ain't having it. It is a pretty sophisticated crowd here when it comes to heckling or dissension. Again, I can attest, it is also a diplomatic membership. After being on the web a while, skilled users can usually spot the troll before finishing reading the first sentence.

Ya. Imagine the first time someone posts "hey I really like that" on the "critical" forum and is told they should keep that type of "casual" comment to its own forum. Eww.

The following isn't directly relevant but I typed it, so... I'll put dashes in to emphasize conceptual discontinuity.

------------------------------------

I onced participated in an online music thing that had a chat widget on its home page. You were absolutely forbidden to link to your own songs in that chat, because apparently it had previously been overrun by people just announcing their own songs. OK, so, makes some sense. But in time, there was so little activity that there was usually nothing to disrupt. Still, for years, newcomers who made the very understandable mistake of doing the forbidden "hey I just uploaded a new song" were sure to be answered immediately with a public smackdown and link to Chat Rules. In the end, such chat as there was consisted of around 1/3 illegal plugs by newbies and 2/3 imperious smackdowns by old-timers.

As Bud suggested, THIS sub-forum is likely an ideal candidate for one-offs. "Here's something I'm working on. Is (this, that, or the other) working for you?"

There have been here the occasional thread about a song that has nothing to do with BIAB and wouldn't be appropriate for the showcase.

Creating a new sub-forum EXPRESSLY for the purpose of getting "deep" comment is something for PG to consider, but so far they already "allow" that kind of thing 'here'.

I also don't have time to "keep up" and usually do as Bud said in choosing who to "follow". To be honest, that time constraint might be even more apparent in a forum (or post) dedicated to deeper thoughts. I can't see myself (often) using such, and don't think I'd make a particularly dependable participant even if I had something to add worth adding. At times I go "deeper" in the showcase, but God in heaven, I wouldn't even WANT to do that consistently.

I'll say this from experience, though. You can learn an awful about somebody by how they respond to criticism, ESPECIALLY when that criticism is not malicious. You can learn pretty quickly when to keep your mouth shut.

A lot of good insights here folks.

Well, I guess I will have to stew on it some more, and keep talking to the people offline I already talk to offline.

But the list is growing.

Yes, David, a lot of good insights.
Some good threads have resulted when composers have explicitly asked for help in specific areas. That's something we don't often tend to do.

People here on this forum are mostly very polite. I think they try their best to avoid hurting other people's feelings. There are those among us who will call anyone out who really gets out of line.

As far as the User Showcase is concerned I do not comment nearly as much as I listen. Why would I say I like something if I don't? I comment on stuff I like some of the time. Sometimes I just smile and hope they keep up the good work. I don't think I am knowledgeable enough to be of much value commenting about your recording techniques.

I also think if a person is super sensitive to what others say about their songs, they should not post them on any forum or play them in public.

I don't get upset by what others say about my songs. I have written some songs I really like and written my share of crap. I am perfectly capable of playing out of time, so is Brent Mason for that matter. We are all at different stages of our musical journey. I think we should continue to be as inclusive as possible.

I think David and others have given all of us some things to think about in this thread.

Billy

I honestly, originally, thought that is what this forum we are in right now would be for. When it was first announced I was pretty excited. I thought someone could simply include "Critique" or "Input Needed" in their thread title, realizing they would get input to possibly help their song. Then we wouldn't have to wonder what someone is looking for and wouldn't get overlooked or lost in the showcase.

I was a little disappointed when this forum became more about pointing to videos or articles on song writing. I like them, don't get me wrong; but I haven't seen that part you can't get from just searching youtube. All of you!

The showcase on the other hand I thought was more for "I think I'm as finished as I'm going to be. Maybe for now, maybe forever, so here it is!"

I know this is a bunch that is eager to help when needed. So we've got that going for us...which is nice.