I’m curious as to the outcome of hard research (double blind studies) on the differences audiophiles can hear when it comes to all of the above. The same research applied to the perceived difference in amps and receivers would also be of interest. To date I’ve never seen such.
Bud
I have done numerous double blind studies involving the album Led Zeppelin II.
I am able to say without reservation that using a robust confidence level in a Chi Square test of significance I need to drop the needle and hear a substantial amount of noise, crackle and popping when the needle hits to render a respectable air punch when the opening riff of Whole Lotta Love Kicks in.
Also, I need to have the volume knob on the Pioneer amp turned all the way to the right because if I do not blow up the speakers, it just does not have the same effect.
I conducted these experiments numerous times at the University of North Carolina at Chapel Hill.
Here is another take that makes a whole lot of sense to me.
He mentions hi-end audio and I'm someone who's had such a system for a long time now.
Around 2003 I'd taken a voluntary redundancy and was working on designs for high-end audio systems, aiming at the time to compete with the likes of Naim, Linn, Mark Levington.
Things for me took a turn and I put the designs on hold for a while. When I was ready to carry on, it was 2005 and I was already getting quite unhappy about the directions of music production. Too much compression on CDs, and the move to things like iPods and mobile 'phones, where portability and convenience were trumping recording and production quality (IMHO). So often people were listening to **** and didn't really seem to care. By then, audiophiles were complaining that CDs were tiring to listen to and not involving enough, though few then seemed to understand why.
I put the project on hold again and there it remained.
There was no point to high-end audio systems if the content itself was no longer to be high-end. Personally I think that's all too often still true.
Jazz relative beginner, starting at a much older age than was helpful. AVL:MXE Linux; Windows 11 BIAB2024 Audiophile, a bunch of other software. Kawai MP6, Ui24R, Focusrite Saffire Pro40 and Scarletts .
Jazz relative beginner, starting at a much older age than was helpful. AVL:MXE Linux; Windows 11 BIAB2024 Audiophile, a bunch of other software. Kawai MP6, Ui24R, Focusrite Saffire Pro40 and Scarletts .
It is, as always, relative. I grew up listening to a"radiogram" until I was 15...a good old stack 'em and go machine and mono too. Around 73 my folks bought a "stereo"...a big piece of furniture but it had a cassette player recorder, turntable plus AM/FM radio. That was an eye opener...stereo...the room was filled with sounds - headphones were acquired.
The MP3 world was a retrograde step in terms of quality, compared to decently made records and many, though not all cassettes, but since then storage is much cheaper and either 16 & 24 bit hi res files are easily acquired and played. Some streaming services offer hi res and a decent program on the receiver can make them sound as grand as they should but there is a generation for whom "in the room" decent resolution stereo sound is a foreign thing. They know headphones/earbuds playlists and streaming, they know sonically hyped Beats headphones, they know wham pow surround sound as well as sound bar simulations. They rarely know good stereo. That's pretty sad really. Even glorious Quad rarely packed the punch of a good stereo mix on half decent gear in a living room.
This is not a cohort's fault as it is, as things were in my youth, the prevailing technology combined with marketing and acquisition desire that drives consumption. The market backed off from one set of consumables and pushed the latest, and more profit intensive, versions. People bought/acquired what was available and in their price range, (except for iPhone people who happily buy outside their economic range becasue it's Apple). I like my records, I play them when I can. I like my CDs, I play them when I can. I haven't bought many digital music files but I like them and play them when I can. I make digital music and play that on whatever will play it. I'm a consumer who hasn't thrown away the goods in that same way that I still enjoy Slade, Bowie, T Rex, John Mayall, Dinosaur Jr and stuff I've bought recently.
Regardless of format I'm always battling to create a wider sweet spot so I don't have to tie myself to a single chair to listen.
Last edited by rayc; 11/07/2101:58 PM.
Cheers rayc "What's so funny about peace, love & understanding?" - N.Lowe
That and the smell of opening a new vinyl album .. And things like In through the Out Door with different covers and the (hidden) water paint aspect <grin> If you got the sleeve damp it gained color .. Wikipedia - "The original album featured an unusual gimmick: the album had an outer sleeve which was made to look like a plain brown paper bag (reminiscent of similarly packaged bootleg album sleeves with the title rubber-stamped on it), and the inner sleeve featured black and white line artwork which, if washed with water, would become permanently fully colored. There were also six different sleeves featuring a different pair of photos ..."
A lot of work went into some of the packaging alone. I was also a fan of some bands that used real artists for covers, like some of the Yes albums.
I do not work here, but the benefits are still awesome Make your sound your own!
I had a guinea pig in 1974, her name was "Bush" because she was shrublike. She was pure white and had jello-red eyes.
Some time well into the 21st century, I pulled out an old record I hadn't played in a very long time, and could still pick short white guinea pig hairs off the surface. That pig had been dead for decades. I may still have the album.
I love both vinyl and digital! My personal preference more comes down to mood. If I'm on the go and walking somewhere, it's much easier to grab a pair of headphones and my phone and listen to some tunes, but when I'm at home I will definitely always prefer listening to vinyl whenever I can.
Well, I love my vinyl records (I've got about 1500 in my collection), but that's in addition to the 2000 CD's and the 800 or so cassettes. I've been busy digitizing them (recording them, cleaning up the sound, splitting out to tracks, and converting to MP3 - and that's for both albums and cassettes). I took pictures of all my album covers and use my pictures for the album art, scuffs and everything. I've also ripped my CD's to MP3 as well. Because, well, I just can't listen to my vinyl in the car or walking the dogs or while camping, which these days seems to be where I do most of my listening. Alphabetically, I am almost through the S's and plan to have everything ripped to MP3 by sometime next year (and then I start tackling my dad's fairly extensive collection). I rip to both 320 and 128. The 128 goes on my phone, which has a 512GB micro SD card in it and I've currently got about 40,000 songs I take with me everywhere. And it's all a fun project. Both have their place.
But like RHarv, there's something about pulling out the album from the sleeve and keeping the sleeve at hand while you listen and read or just admire. Liner notes are readable (unlike on CD's) and the sound of the needle dropping down just, well, brings it all back.
I suspect once everything is ripped, I'll probably be getting rid of them as we downsize. They do take up a lot of space, whereas my MP3 collection fits on either a USB drive the size of a pack of playing cards, or an SD card the size of a dime.
John
Laptop-HP Omen I7 Win11Pro 32GB 2x2TB, 1x4TB SSD Desktop-ASUS-I7 Win10Pro 32GB 2x1.5TB, 2x2TB, 1x4TB SATA
I don't miss Casette, LP or CD's - I simply love the convenience of digital streaming, and the audio quality on my car stereo is significantly better than any previous car stereo with cassette or CD.
When it comes to HiFi and proper stereo - let me quote Alan Parsons "Audiophiles don't use their equipment to listen to your music. Audiophiles use your music to listen to their equipment."
Well I miss the album covers for LP with lyrics, art work and info about session musicians, engineers, producers et all. Not the crackle, pops and scratches....and especially not mounting the turntable somewhere steady, so you could walk past or otherwise risk the damage of the record and your expensive Ortofon sapphire moving coil pickup. Not everything was better in the old days . . . . . well perhaps the music :-)
MacMini M1 - BIAB2021 - Logic Pro X - iZotope Music Production Suite - Scaler 2 - far too many Waves plugins and Line 6 Guitars and boards + a fantastic Yamaha THR10ll mini Amp - Avid MBOX Studio
Peters' Garage is available on all major streaming services
There is a difference. However, if you take out the pops and clicks which are from damage to the product...then the difference is like that of a pink lady apple and a fuji apple.
I had no problem getting rid of my jazz albums in the early nineties to go with CD for space/convenience.
The bigger difference for me is production and quality of music. There's not much great music today. It's getting dumbed down more and more every decade. More and more over-produced. Gone is something that actually sounds fresh and real.
Re: mp3's and streaming. That's another huge problem. No product. Nothing to hold in your hand. No touch or smell. No liner notes. Very easy for an mp3 song to get lost in some giant digital musical dump collection on your hard drive.
Because it's no longer a physical product it has also devalued the music too.
But that's not gonna stop me from releasing mp3's and streaming. If you can't beat um join um.
It's sad though because this is yet another example of how technology doesn't always improve our lives.
It's exactly the same thing with non-fiction books too.
All of this has made me realize that I am very much a snob. And I am going to have to own it, I suppose, because nothing can be done.
You see, I detest modern culture, I suppose, and so for me, vinyl is a form of rebellion. A way of life. I have a television subscription I NEVER use, I waste money on a Netflix account because the only I think I ever watch is "Crackling Roaring Fire" while I have a real fire going in the hearth.
I read old Life magazines, live in a dreamland where I pretend it is 1953, have a library of the Great Classics, only watch classic movies, and play classical guitar, violin, cello, piano, jazz guitar and bass.
I do not know what type of equipment people are using but my vinyl sounds warm and wonderful and better than any CD or MP3 I have ever listened to. The difference is astounding and I am shocked people can't hear it--I suppose it is because their ears have been irreparably damaged from listening to crap.
Back in the day, the people who made all the music that goes on vinyl had what I would like to call "Beautiful Souls." The other day I dropped the needle on Rickie Lee Jones' "Pirates." Now there is greatness. I hear what people are doing today and I want to run away to the moon, but it isn't far enough away.
Comparatively, when I hear the majority of "entertainers" today it sounds like they have the soul of a garbage dump.
So, I play my cello and my vinyl and watch my classic movies and remain in my delusional fantasy world, eyes closed in bliss when I play my Bach on my classical guitars.
But also, I know I am also a hypocrite, since I own BIAB, every Xtra Styles Pak made, more orchestral libraries than I can count, and 897 VST plugins.
So, as I sat by the fire just now, with a cup of espresso, listening to vinyl in my cashmere sweater, I had to realize:
David you are a pompous over-educated snob and a hypocrite.
Why yes, I suppose I am.
But it is has gone far too long for me to change, so I suppose I will have to love myself in spite of it.
Let's say all that stuff you said about yourself is true...perhaps.
It does not change anything. I like you just the way you are.
I don't play my Bach on my classical guitars only because I don't know how. People are going to be playing Bach long after you and I are long gone from this world.
No one needs to apologize for liking vinal or crap MP3 on a bloody cell phone for that matter.
I have vinal, cassette tapes, reel-to-reel tape, CDs, and even some crap MP3s on my cell phone. The tape may sound the best, for a while at least. It does deteriorate. The vinal sounds warm and friendly and will last for a very long time. It is my favorite for several reasons, it is analog, moves, you can see it, you can touch it. It lives in the same room and not somewhere in cyberspace.
I use to be stuck in the past lamenting the fact that all my old blues friends died and left me here alone.
Well, lately I decided to move on. Went out and found me a twenty-two-year-old girlfriend. So stop right there...not that kind of girlfriend...lol
What she has made me aware of is that there is a lot of "modern" music and musicians that are as good as anything we have been accustomed to from the past. I have missed a lot because I was so turned off too much of the modern music and just stop listening to new stuff.
Three this afternoon at my house for the first recording/writing/collaboration session. Perhaps Punk Rock Bach...lol Who knows what will develop.
So...David, why don't you post some of that Cello music you play for us? We like that stuff also you know.
Happy Holidays to everyone.
Billy
New location, new environment, new music coming soon
Seize the moo-ment If you feel like you’ve herd all these cow puns before, you probably have deja-moo
Nothing to hold in your hand. No touch or smell. No liner notes.
True that, and I do lament the loss of that physicality.
However, a Story From the Modern World:
The other day, for various reasons, I found myself thinking of an old pop version of "Ding Dong! The Witch Is Dead".
If I had the old record, I could have played it. It would have had a nostalgic old paper smell. The cover may have had some information, or at least photos to look at. (Laura Nyro once put out an album that was SCENTED WITH PERFUME. Try streaming that!)
Anyway, I did not have the old record, so I streamed it, and read up on that version online.
I learned that the cool instrumental I remembered from childhood was by the renaissance composer Michael Praetorius. I then found numerous versions of that particular piece online, and listened to them. I then found a MIDI transcription and created my own version with crazy synthetic voices and posted it on the Internet, where anyone anywhere in the world can listen to it.
I liked being able to do all that modern stuff.
In the end, I satisfied my need for physicality by playing the old song on my iPhone while walking in the woods. I had the phone playing in my pocket, so I wasn't disconnected from the forest, and I marched and bounced on the crunchy yellow leaves and it was good.
Back in time I had a reel-to-reel tape deck and a reel-to-reel tape recorder. I quit buying commercial releases on tape because the content playback speed was 3 3/4, the tapes didn't receive any high fidelity processing and the storage boxes usually didn't include liner notes.
I have to say that I don't think any of what David said was either snobbish or hypocritical.
Nor is it of any significance whether one prefers vinyl or CD or streaming or open reel or cassette. It only becomes snobbish when one criticises other for their lack of appreciation of ones own preferences, which , almost be definition are ones own "reference standard".
Nor is it hypocritical to prefer vinyl and playing real instruments whilst using a tool like BiaB. It's a tool, nothing more nor less. And if your own preference is orchestral, then of course you'll have orchestral libraries and they, too, are a tool.
Jazz relative beginner, starting at a much older age than was helpful. AVL:MXE Linux; Windows 11 BIAB2024 Audiophile, a bunch of other software. Kawai MP6, Ui24R, Focusrite Saffire Pro40 and Scarletts .
I have to say that I don't think any of what David said was either snobbish or hypocritical.
"Back in the day, the people who made all the music that goes on vinyl had what I would like to call 'Beautiful Souls' [...] Comparatively, when I hear the majority of 'entertainers' today it sounds like they have the soul of a garbage dump" is not exactly "to each his own". =8^)
The difference is astounding and I am shocked people can't hear it--I suppose it is because their ears have been irreparably damaged from listening to crap.
I think that you are an audiophile. Just because someone is a great musician, does not necessarily equate to them being an audiophile. In fact many audiophiles are NOT musicians.
For myself, I was in my early twenties when CDs came out. My ears were fine. I will say that I've never had a great stereo or speakers. Never had the money, being a broke-[*****] jazz musician.
I will say that even though I was classically trained, having been principle clarinet in the college orchestra....my preference has always been [*****]-shaking music (as my sax teacher put it) And certainly there are many more subtleties in classical recordings, than jazz, rock, and pop.
There is clearly a difference between vinyl and CD, HOWEVER...I don't think it's an issue of good vs. bad, but rather a preference, just the same way that some prefer jazz and others prefer country....and yet others prefer everything or different combinations.
I have to say that I don't think any of what David said was either snobbish or hypocritical.
"Back in the day, musicians had beautiful souls, but today, they have the souls of garbage dumps" is not exactly "to each his own". =8^)
Perhaps it would have better to say MOST. There was plenty of bad music back then too. And there is some great music today too. Because it is so very easy to put music out today, it's harder to find the gems among the crap. Same thing with books. It's become way too easy for anyone regardless of talent or skills to make something. That's the bad. The good is that it's easy for talented people to get there work out today, without being taken advantage of by the record labels, agents, and managers.
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Note: The Xtra Styles require the UltraPAK, UltraPAK+, or Audiophile Edition of Band-in-a-Box®. (Xtra Styles PAK 18 requires the 2024 UltraPAK/UltraPAK+/Audiophile Edition. They will not work with the Pro or MegaPAK version because they need the RealTracks from the UltraPAK, UltraPAK+, or Audiophile Edition.
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