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Many, many years ago when I first got in to music, the most helpful thing I found was a circle of fifths wheel. It taught me the basic building blocks of music, in time I found it easier to be able to work out chord patterns, and that you could break the rules. These days there are apps and many web sites that do the circle of fifths. I would suggest that Swingbabymix look in to that, he will get an awful lot of benefit and insight very quickly. Can the circle of fifths help me learn to substitute chords?
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I certainly agree about circle of fifths (or fourths depending on one's perspective). I think it's highly useful to be able to built it inside one's head, though I also carry a printed copy for quick reference. It's a powerful tool. SBM definitely uses Scaler 2 to help him design/discover progressions. Scaler 2 has a circle of fifths in its "chord" and "modulation" sections, though I think it doesn't discuss it, just offers a tool one might expect. Interesting the views about numbers of chords, substitutions and so forth. There is, to me at least, a nice presentation about "The Girl From Ipanema", how tritone substitutions were written into it, how people simplify it. https://youtu.be/OFWCbGzxofUStatus Quo once did a tour entitled "The Search For The Fourth Chord". Incidentally, tritone substitutions can make things simpler rather than harder.
Last edited by Gordon Scott; 12/31/21 01:47 AM.
Jazz relative beginner, starting at a much older age than was helpful.
AVL:MXE Linux; Windows 11
BIAB2024 Audiophile, a bunch of other software.
Kawai MP6, Ui24R, Focusrite Saffire Pro40 and Scarletts
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Press button A to get chords. Press button B to get backing.
No personal input no creativity.
Is that really the way we want music making to go? Not when you put it like that! But I didn't say no personal input, no creativity. There's plenty still to create in BIAB even after you pick some chords (a melody, for one thing.) Wouldn't a simple progression be a good place to start a first project? Think of the kid who just figured out that all of Chuck Berry's songs are 3 chords, and writes down all those sets of 3. That's his "Scaler". He then strums A, D, and E on his guitar – his "Band in a Box" – settles on a simple pattern, adds a melody and some words, and calls it good. On the other hand, there is this horrifying future, already in progress: – Take an audio file (or URL) of a song you like and feed it to BIAB. – BIAB analyses the song and determines the style. – BIAB generates chord progressions that fit the style. – BIAB generates melodies for each progression. – BIAB generates style-appropriate lyrics and sings them. Voila, BIAB has created an album of 12 new songs for you, ready to copyright and monetize. All that's left for you is to fire up the random title generator (a legal requirement in order to be able to assert human authorship.)
Last edited by Mark Hayes; 12/31/21 01:29 PM.
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Can the circle of fifths help me learn to substitute chords?
Not really. It is more for chord progressions. Chord substitution is a personal, depending on song genre, and tricky thing. Here are a couple of things that may help: http://i.stack.imgur.com/Hjuz5.jpghttps://www.bing.com/images/search?q=Chord+Substitution&form=IRMHRS&first=1&tsc=ImageBasicHoverIf you need help in chord substitution you would have to post the current chord progression as well as the genre. It makes a huge difference in substituting chords for a folk, country, or jazz song.
Unclear if the pianist is a total beginner or a professional jazz player?
64 bit Win 10 Pro, the latest BiaB/RB, Roland Octa-Capture audio interface, a ton of software/hardware
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[quote=swingbabymix]
Can the circle of fifths help me learn to substitute chords? Not really. It is more for chord progressions. He seems to be a total novice to the use of chords, so surely he needs to know the basics of chord progressions at the very least. I know the forum members are extremely helpful but there is no substitute for learning these things, rather than having someone spoon feed him the answer and him not understanding the theory behind it.
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[quote=swingbabymix]
Can the circle of fifths help me learn to substitute chords? Not really. It is more for chord progressions. He seems to be a total novice to the use of chords, so surely he needs to know the basics of chord progressions at the very least. I know the forum members are extremely helpful but there is no substitute for learning these things, rather than having someone spoon feed him the answer and him not understanding the theory behind it. I agree.
Unclear if the pianist is a total beginner or a professional jazz player?
64 bit Win 10 Pro, the latest BiaB/RB, Roland Octa-Capture audio interface, a ton of software/hardware
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He seems to be a total novice to the use of chords, so surely he needs to know the basics of chord progressions at the very least. Which is why getting into chord substitution is a terrible idea. Someone who has never written a simple 3 chord song wants to stuff 13b5's and God knows what else into his noodlings because "the more, the better". PS – I was just fooling around with "This Land Is Your Land", telling BIAB to "jazz it up". I had to stop because I was afraid if I kept going it might start to sound good.
Last edited by Mark Hayes; 12/31/21 07:38 AM.
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SwingBabyMix, and other users that want to understand music better, Check out +++ Play With Your Music +++. It is a non profit educational organization that helps beginners learn about music and music theory.
Jim Fogle - 2025 BiaB (1124) RB (1) Ultra+ PAK DAWs: Cakewalk by BandLab (CbB) - Standalone: Zoom MRS-8 Laptop: i3 Win 10, 8GB ram 500GB HDD Desktop: i7 Win 11, 12GB ram 256GB SSD, 4 TB HDD Music at: https://fogle622.wix.com/fogle622-audio-home
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Check out +++ Play With Your Music +++. It is a non profit educational organization that helps beginners learn about music and music theory. The project looks really interesting, but email signup doesn't work and the last forum activity was August 2020. Do you know if it continues in some form? The "cohort" idea is great.
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Much of the material is self paced with links to YouTube videos (which are GREAT by the way) or to other educational sites. Forum activity comes and goes in spurts mostly depending on if the developers are trying new to develop new ideas.
Cohorts is a good idea but it is time consuming to find one unless the forum is active.
One of the reasons I suggested Play With Your Music to SwingBabyMix is one of the instructors is Chinese and based in Shanghai. I have a strong suspicion his heritage is Chinese so he maybe able to ask questions in his native language.
It is very difficult to understand what you're learning when information is discovered in a hodgepodge manner. This site has some structure.
Jim Fogle - 2025 BiaB (1124) RB (1) Ultra+ PAK DAWs: Cakewalk by BandLab (CbB) - Standalone: Zoom MRS-8 Laptop: i3 Win 10, 8GB ram 500GB HDD Desktop: i7 Win 11, 12GB ram 256GB SSD, 4 TB HDD Music at: https://fogle622.wix.com/fogle622-audio-home
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well sugggested Jim. swbm would seem to need some education in basic music theory and practice. might cut the number of posts and help him progress in making music
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Forum activity comes and goes in spurts mostly depending on if the developers are trying new to develop new ideas... One of the reasons I suggested Play With Your Music to SwingBabyMix is one of the instructors is Chinese and based in Shanghai. I have a strong suspicion his heritage is Chinese so he maybe able to ask questions in his native language. Again – and please correct me if I'm wrong – I don't think he'll be able to do that. The signup function does not work, and the most recent post is from August 2020. There may be great material still online, but the site does appear to be inactive.
Last edited by Mark Hayes; 01/01/22 05:29 AM.
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I don't know about signing up for a cohort but +++ Sign Up +++ for the Play With Your Music forum is active.
Jim Fogle - 2025 BiaB (1124) RB (1) Ultra+ PAK DAWs: Cakewalk by BandLab (CbB) - Standalone: Zoom MRS-8 Laptop: i3 Win 10, 8GB ram 500GB HDD Desktop: i7 Win 11, 12GB ram 256GB SSD, 4 TB HDD Music at: https://fogle622.wix.com/fogle622-audio-home
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I don't know about signing up for a cohort but +++ Sign Up +++ for the Play With Your Music forum is active. I tried that. The site promised me a confirmation email which never came. And a year and a half without any forum activity isn't just a lull. I sent an email to playwithyourmusic@gmail.com asking if the project is still active. It did not bounce, so hopefully I will hear back from someone. This really does interest me. Sorry if I'm being annoying, but if I don't mention this, we know who will.
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I see SBM is now has 947 posts and is considered an expert. Why does he need so much help? I think the rating software was never expecting this sort of activity in such a short period of time.
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I see SBM is now has 947 posts and is considered an expert. Why does he need so much help? I think the rating software was never expecting this sort of activity in such a short period of time. Since there is a possibility you are not kidding, I'll just clarify that the forum titles, like yours of 'Apprentice', are assigned automatically by the forum software according to total post count. It has nothing whatever to do with competence, nor time on the forum.
BIAB 2025 Win Audiophile. Software: Studio One 7 Pro, Swam horns, Acoustica-7, Notion 6, Song Master Pro, Win 11 Home. Hardware: Intel i9, 32 Gb; Roland Integra-7, Presonus 192 & Faderport 8, Royer 121, Adam Sub8 & Neumann 120 monitors.
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It was meant to be rather tongue in cheek. I am well aware how the the titles are assigned. By the knowledge of other forum members I am indeed an Apprentice. Though I think I know far more than SBM. there is a full manual available after all.
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That's good; I was just checking.
This poster does present an intriguing challenge. One other poster inquired how best to help but was discouraged by another. So for now, I have decided I'm going to consider that the OP is like my 7-year-old grandchild. Smart, inquisitive beyond belief, and inexperienced in knowing how best to learn. Also, someone whose native language presents a translation problem, and for whom sarcasm does not work and bad or snide language must be avoided.
BIAB 2025 Win Audiophile. Software: Studio One 7 Pro, Swam horns, Acoustica-7, Notion 6, Song Master Pro, Win 11 Home. Hardware: Intel i9, 32 Gb; Roland Integra-7, Presonus 192 & Faderport 8, Royer 121, Adam Sub8 & Neumann 120 monitors.
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I have a strong suspicion his heritage is Chinese Me too ... his mentions of being unable to access certain resources strongly suggests that.
Jazz relative beginner, starting at a much older age than was helpful.
AVL:MXE Linux; Windows 11
BIAB2024 Audiophile, a bunch of other software.
Kawai MP6, Ui24R, Focusrite Saffire Pro40 and Scarletts
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i think there is a slight problem with the lack of feedback. several posts suggest how he could learn more about music. no real reply, just more questions. its as if he's exploring the features of the software not how to create music with it.
another post is on why BIAB suggests a song is in G when he thinks its in E minor that prompted me to ask if he understands majors and their relative minors.
the song may well be in G but if the first chord of the intro is E minor........well you see what i mean. there has been no answer.
and i'm not sure chinese state censorship would extend to sites dealing with music theory. maybe specific sites - including the one Jim mentions - but if the BIAB forum is accessible then censorship is not that draconian.
and as for tongue in cheek posts, my quote from Woody Guthrie - 'anything more than three chords is showing off' - seems to have forever branded me as a musical illiterate. but the point was serious in the light of some of the chord queries SBM has posted - particularly the chord substitution debate.
i take the point about being inexperienced in the way to learn but all we can do is point in the right direction - and that does seem to point towards a little basic music theory.
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