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I find this discussion interesting on a few different levels and see valid points on both sides of this debate.
Let’s fast-forward 20 years or so to a hypothetical “discussion” that might take place in a home in the future.
Joe Novice: “Alexa, write me a song with a melody and some lyrics and then copyright it. Get the new software program Vocal AA Plus to do the singing.”
Alexa: “OK, in what genre and what do you want the song to say?”
Joe Novice: “I don’t know and I don’t care, you know I have no knowledge in music; just do your best.”
Alexa: “Your song is written, copyrighted and uploaded to SoundCloud. And there is much buzz across the music forums; they absolutely love it. The Streaming Services will pay whatever you ask just to be able to play it on their platforms and the NFL wants it for their new theme song.”
Joe Novice: “Great, tell them I want 200.00 USD per play.”
Alexa: “Boss, they are all happy to pay $200.00 and now the major world-wide news outlets want to interview you about your song and the retailers want to talk about merchandise; hats, T-shirts, cereal boxes, etc.”
Joe Novice: “Schedule me as many interviews and meetings as possible, my hourly rate is $2000/hr plus expenses. And get to work on my next song.”
Alexa: “Got it boss, you have 150 interviews this year and 350 next.”
Balexa: "Hey Boss, I think I can get you $250 per play."
Is this scenario good, bad, fair, unfair, neutral, enviable, distasteful, inevitable?
PS> I'm about as novice as Joe
PPS> Who wants to write a song about this?
https://soundcloud.com/user-646279677BiaB 2024 Windows For me there’s no better place in the band than to have one leg in the harmony world and the other in the percussive. Thank you Paul Tutmarc and Leo Fender.
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PPS> Who wants to write a song about this? Has anyone tried Alexa? 
BIAB & RB2024 Win.(Audiophile), Sonar Platinum, Cakewalk by Bandlab, Izotope Prod.Bundle, Roland RD-1000, Synthogy Ivory, Kontakt, Focusrite 18i20, KetronSD2, NS40M Monitors, Pioneer Active Monitors, AKG K271 Studio H'phones
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Bass Thumper, you can do instrumentals in BiaB in the exact way you described. Load a demo song, in the Melodist add a melody, and presto you have a complete song.
Inflation is so bad that CEOs are now playing miniature golf!
64 bit Win 10 Pro, the latest BiaB/RB, Roland Octa-Capture audio interface, a ton of software/hardware
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Bass Thumper, you can do instrumentals in BiaB in the exact way you described. Load a demo song, in the Melodist add a melody, and presto you have a complete song. It's even better/worse than that. I just launched BIAB and said, "give me melody and chords" and it did. I guess it was using a demo song but I didn't have any say in the matter, I provided ZERO input beyond clicking "OK" on a fat prefs panel I didn't even read.
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<"But PLEASE don't use Brian Wilson as your example to which you compare the "load demo song" bunch.">
Too late. It's well established Brian and Mike plagiarized Chuck Berry's "sweet little 16" for "surfin' USA".... followed by The Beach Boys using the instrumental intro to Berry's "Johnny B Goode" in their intro to "fun,fun,fun".
It doesn't get more "load demo song" and write a song than that.
Last edited by Charlie Fogle; 03/10/22 06:38 PM.
BIAB Ultra Pak+ 2024:RB 2024, Latest builds: Dell Optiplex 7040 Desktop; Windows-10-64 bit, Intel Core i7-6700 3.4GHz CPU and 16 GB Ram Memory.
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The Beach Boys is a good example as Charlie makes clear. They borrowed relentlessly, not just songs but harmony arrangements etc., until Brian had the confidence to do otherwise. They eventually paid the owner AND the piper. BW used session players, not just because the band were on the road generating income, but also because the band weren't good enough to do the studio work...they could cut it live with stripped arrangements, screaming girls and careful song selection though. Nor were they prepared to run through six bars 50 times until he was happy with the result. In the studio BW built songs from "segments" that he stitched together in he mix...rather BIABish. Grab a midi file of a popular song, change the key, alter the arrangement, tweak the form & structure then pile on some new words...that's just a new way fo doing an old thing. Things are tools, tools are cool. Some folk are hacks, some hobbyists, some artisans and some are complete nonces. BIAB and other bits of gear assist creativity, assist having fun, assist those who can get the ideas in their head OUT without tools. I wouldn't deny anyone the opportunity to use tools. The fact that we're arguing the toss in a forum set up as promotion for an expensive but rather excellent tool isn't lost is it? "I've been dealing with the bitter disappointment of failing for a really long time." This is a sad thing. It's not my experience though nor was my goal in that "arena". "What was painful was that my failure was not for lack of effort." Relative failure to attain goals is the experience for most people in most walks of life in the 1st world. In the third world they'd welcome the luxury of dwelling on the failure of life dreams but are busy surviving. In 1st world terms "hobbies", an awful word but apt, are where many park their aspirations IF they have the time, money & opportunity while earning a living. Getting away from the abstract for a moment. Here are the most recent musical offerings,that could be found in ten pages of topics created, of all the folk, thus far, on THIS page... https://soundcloud.com/charlie-fogle/im-all-alonehttps://soundcloud.com/mark_hayes/nature-the-gentlest-mother-dickinson-coplandhttps://soundcloud.com/mario_guitar/blue-water-beachhttps://soundcloud.com/user-646279677/unshakable-faithhttps://youtu.be/xjmwKu_2X-Qhttps://soundcloud.com/davidsnyderfawm2022/kings-and-queenshttps://soundcloud.com/planobillydfw/the-pilot-v7?si=4726260c485649bb882eb893ff384239&utm_source=clipboard&utm_medium=text&utm_campaign=social_sharinghttps://soundcloud.com/user-912061579/a-way-outwavI wasn't able to find a relevant post for everyone in ten pages , (arbitrary I know but for most it went back to early 2021). In each instance it seems that gear/tools/technology helped in large or small ways to address the admonition:"Don't die with your music still inside of you."
Cheers
rayc
"What's so funny about peace, love & understanding?" - N.Lowe
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MarioD and Mark Hayes, I don’t think you fully understand the hypothetical scenario I constructed as it has 2 criteria. Criteria 1 deals with technical capability and Criteria 2 deals with the value as seen by society for what is produced by that technical capability. In my hypothetical I intentionally set the bar very high on both so that today’s technology is not sufficient thereby forcing us to think about the future and where all of this might go. I know, this is philosophical but philosophy is not unimportant. Regarding Criteria 1: I don’t doubt that BiaB is powerful (as a novice in music, more powerful than I fully appreciate at this time). But generating chords and a melody doesn’t reach the bar. Where are the lyrics? Where are the vocals? Today’s “Alexa” (or current technology) is not capable of producing them via voice command only but we can assume some future version will. Regarding Criteria 2: OK, you generated some chords and even a melody, I get that. Now how many Streaming Services are willing to pay you $200 per play? Or even $20 per play? How many news outlets want to interview you about your masterpiece? How many retailers are clamoring for your endorsement because of your work? Again, perhaps one day but not today. Someone raised The Beach Boys, their producers and The Wrecking as an example. That team met Criteria 1. They produced complete, masterful songs including lyrics, vocals and vocal harmonies. Likewise they met Criteria 2 of having society value them as evidenced by filled stadiums, record deals, TV appearances, etc. They were a smash live and in the studio. What interests me about this discussion is that it’s likely we all come down somewhere slightly different on the spectrum whether we realize it or not; it’s not Boolean or black/white. I suspect there are very few of us that come down “hard-left” (100% human artistic creativity and 0% tech) or “hard-right” (100% tech and 0% human artistic creativity). The debate over creativity vs technology is not new. Bob Dylan “electrifying and plugging-in” vs remaining “acoustic” could be one past example. So one question is where are we on the spectrum? [Not the autistic spectrum, that's a whole nother topic]  Another point of interest for me here is the “conflict” between two very basic human needs; the need to be creative vs the need to build tools. As a race we are tool builders and find joy and expression in creating. In fact, isn’t it true that building tools can be creative? So was Joe Novice musically creative? Do we even care if he was creative? He certainly didn’t pay his musical dues, he just bought technology and spoke. This is why I asked “Is this scenario good, bad, fair, unfair, neutral, enviable, distasteful, inevitable?” I wouldn’t be surprised if there are entire books written on this subject.
https://soundcloud.com/user-646279677BiaB 2024 Windows For me there’s no better place in the band than to have one leg in the harmony world and the other in the percussive. Thank you Paul Tutmarc and Leo Fender.
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eddie1261
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Guys, look at the title of the thread.
"Does all this music stuff I own actually produce better music?"
The point is that the STUFF doesn't produce better music.
Had it been written "Does all this music stuff I own actually ALLOW ME TO produce better music?" this whole thread may not have happened.
YOU make the music, not the stuff. Even though this particular part of "the stuff" generates tracks, the idea is for it to generate what you tell it to. The fact that you CAN use the "Load demo song" gives it the ability to be an automaton, but is it designed to be that? Output that is completely devoid and absent of any human input?
I smiled when I saw the reference to Brian Wilson stealing Sweet Little 16. About 8 years I did some tempo and key adjustments and did a mashup of the two that I called Sweet Little 16 Surfer In The USA. It was stupid at the core but it helped me learn how to use pitch adjusting and tempo adjusting and cutting and pasting.
I also did that for I Can't Help It If I Still Fall To Pieces (I Can't Help It If I'm Still In Love With You and I Fall To Pieces) and Old Flaming Habits (Old Flames and Old Habits). And to someone who landed from the planet Gronk an had never heard those old country songs they would have sounded like they were written that way.
So yes, people steal all the time. Don't worry baby was a direct rip from Be My Baby. Wilson admitted that. Harrison stole He's So Fine for My Sweet Lord. Lady A stole Eye In The Sky from Alan Parsons for Need You Now. And on and on the list goes.
None of that is the point.
People make the music, not software.
Last edited by eddie1261; 03/11/22 04:33 AM.
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MarioD and Mark Hayes,
...........................................
Regarding Criteria 1: I don’t doubt that BiaB is powerful (as a novice in music, more powerful than I fully appreciate at this time). But generating chords and a melody doesn’t reach the bar. Where are the lyrics? Where are the vocals? Today’s “Alexa” (or current technology) is not capable of producing them via voice command only but we can assume some future version will.
Regarding Criteria 2: OK, you generated some chords and even a melody, I get that. Now how many Streaming Services are willing to pay you $200 per play? Or even $20 per play? How many news outlets want to interview you about your masterpiece? How many retailers are clamoring for your endorsement because of your work? Again, perhaps one day but not today.
Someone raised The Beach Boys, their producers and The Wrecking as an example. That team met Criteria 1. They produced complete, masterful songs including lyrics, vocals and vocal harmonies. Likewise they met Criteria 2 of having society value them as evidenced by filled stadiums, record deals, TV appearances, etc. They were a smash live and in the studio. What interests me about this discussion is that it’s likely we all come down somewhere slightly different on the spectrum whether we realize it or not; it’s not Boolean or black/white. I suspect there are very few of us that come down “hard-left” (100% human artistic creativity and 0% tech) or “hard-right” (100% tech and 0% human artistic creativity). The debate over creativity vs technology is not new. Bob Dylan “electrifying and plugging-in” vs remaining “acoustic” could be one past example. So one question is where are we on the spectrum? [Not the autistic spectrum, that's a whole nother topic]
The ones using 100% tech are using BiaB, Acid, or any other program that one can produce music without singing or playing any instrument. This includes those using manipulating RTs and MIDI until they get something that sounds good. Note I am not knocking those individuals, I'm just making a point.Another point of interest for me here is the “conflict” between two very basic human needs; the need to be creative vs the need to build tools. As a race we are tool builders and find joy and expression in creating. In fact, isn’t it true that building tools can be creative?
So was Joe Novice musically creative? Do we even care if he was creative? He certainly didn’t pay his musical dues, he just bought technology and spoke.
This is why I asked “Is this scenario good, bad, fair, unfair, neutral, enviable, distasteful, inevitable?”
I wouldn’t be surprised if there are entire books written on this subject.
I don't think that there is a conflict between making tools and being creative. Being creative has lead to the tools we use today.
IMHO yes Joe Novice is musically creative.
Is this scenario good or bad depends on you. Topics like this, religion, and politics starts wars. Some people think that if you don't know theory you are not a musician. Others say if you don't sing or play an instrument you are not a musician. All I can say is let me hear the end product and I will decide if I like it or not, i.e. I don't care how it was produced.
YMMV
Inflation is so bad that CEOs are now playing miniature golf!
64 bit Win 10 Pro, the latest BiaB/RB, Roland Octa-Capture audio interface, a ton of software/hardware
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I don’t think you fully understand the hypothetical scenario I constructed as it has 2 criteria. Lack of understanding is rather a lot to read into the wee observation I offered about the Melodist. My point was just that the Age of Instant Music is already upon us, perhaps less hypothetical than might be thought. Another point of interest for me here is the “conflict” between two very basic human needs; the need to be creative vs the need to build tools. As a race we are tool builders and find joy and expression in creating. In fact, isn’t it true that building tools can be creative? OK, here I don't understand what the conflict is supposed to be, and I see no one denying that the software developers who create all our plugins are creative (which would be really silly.) So was Joe Novice musically creative? Do we even care if he was creative? He certainly didn’t pay his musical dues, he just bought technology and spoke. You might ask the same regarding Bach's patrons. There's a sliding scale between doing everything yourself and simply paying somebody else to do everything for you, a hierarchy that's been around for millennia. In this case, I would say that Joe is being rather aggressively UN-creative, and so gets zero creativity points, but presumably there are creative individuals in the hierarchy of contractors and subcontractors he commands. Some will be human, some will be automata; let's give credit where credit is due without ontological prejudice. Some of that creativity will be in the present production process, in the supervision of automata, and some of it will be in the past development of those tools. The most interesting question may be how much of this creativity isn't human any more.
Last edited by Mark Hayes; 03/11/22 06:45 AM.
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Something just struck me like a lightning bolt after jamming along at high volume today for a few hours with some Video Real Tracks, which are a blast. So here's the deal. I have been in a lot of bands, and all my best songs back in the day came from jamming with my besties for hours on end until a song popped out. I just did that this afternoon and wrote a killer song (I think) that I will post when I am done with it, but I have certainly posted songs here before that came from the exact same process. Has no one ever written a killer song after jamming out with Band-in-a-Box for a few hours???? Ever?? If you have, would you not say that the technology helped you, got you inspired, yielded some great backing tracks to go with your own tracks, etc. and was also fun as hell???? If not, then are you sure are in the right place???? With that thought, and that thought alone, not intended to be an "argument"--just a thought--I believe I may need to log out for a while and focus on twenty more tunes. Does anyone know what I am saying?????? Anyone??????
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I believe I may need to log out for a while and focus on twenty more tunes. Does anyone know what I am saying?????? Anyone?????? Yep, I spent yesterday arvo building a song structure in BIAB as well as a drum track just as I wanted it. The bones of that song were dragged into Reaper via the DAW Plug In. I then recorded scratch bass and three amp in a box guitar parts as drafts, to replace the BIAB tracks, so I can listen for a couple of days before retracking with amp and volume. Without BIAB I'd have had to use a click track or drum machine as I did prior to 2015. I'm not sure if the song will get to completion with melody & lyrics yet BUT it's, like so many, a start.
Last edited by rayc; 03/11/22 01:06 PM.
Cheers
rayc
"What's so funny about peace, love & understanding?" - N.Lowe
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The gear doesn't make you a good player. YOU make you a good player.
The ignore list is now 14 names long!
The vast majority of forums within PG music are about making music NOT being a good player...writing songs, NOT being a virtuoso, having a GO not having a DEGREE. One of the world's most fabulous songwriters used a specially built piano with a lever for transposition...Irving Berlin isn't disparaged for being a so so player, he's lauded for being a brilliant songwriter. He used gear to help him be that. Oh, I do, so desperately, hope I'm "ignored". It'd be a badge of honour.
Last edited by rayc; 03/11/22 01:02 PM.
Cheers
rayc
"What's so funny about peace, love & understanding?" - N.Lowe
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To answer the original post
"Does all this music stuff I own actually produce better music?"
Yes, or you are doing it wrong.
They are tools in the production of music. It was a simple question really that appears to have wandered sideways to me.
Try to produce a CD without these tools <grin>
/thought I'd inject a bit of 'MACism' into the fray
I do not work here, but the benefits are still awesome
Make your sound your own!
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To answer the original post
"Does all this music stuff I own actually produce better music?"
Yes, or you are doing it wrong. They are tools in the production of music.
It was a simple question really that appears to have wandered sideways to me.
Try to produce a CD without these tools <grin>
/thought I'd inject a bit of 'MACism' into the fray The so-called "debate" over the title question is not real, considering that it's based on a deliberate misinterpretation of the question. Mother Murray and Joseph, nobody is asking "Will my gear make great music all by itself?"
Last edited by Mark Hayes; 03/11/22 04:21 PM.
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.................
Has no one ever written a killer song after jamming out with Band-in-a-Box for a few hours????
Ever?? If you have, would you not say that the technology helped you, got you inspired, yielded some great backing tracks to go with your own tracks, etc. and was also fun as hell????
If not, then are you sure are in the right place???? With that thought, and that thought alone, not intended to be an "argument"--just a thought--I believe I may need to log out for a while and focus on twenty more tunes. Does anyone know what I am saying?????? Anyone??????
I also know what you did last summer!
Inflation is so bad that CEOs are now playing miniature golf!
64 bit Win 10 Pro, the latest BiaB/RB, Roland Octa-Capture audio interface, a ton of software/hardware
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Well, with old age and arthritis in my hands, I am now a DREADFUL guitar player, and it takes 3 Aleve 30 minutes before a show to play keyboards, so without these tools I couldn't do much in the way of writing. I tend to work exactly the opposite where your free style practice session jams inspire songs. I need to be inspired by something I see or do, or a real life event or something like that. And I work from lyric to music, not from music to lyric. Ironically some of the best lyrics come to me as I lay in bed, and if I don't pick up the phone and record them into a sound byte after I sleep they are gone. Here's an example of Real Band at work. Without Real Band this song couldn't not have been born. Here Goes Nuttin' Almost everything I have ever written references women that have dumped me, and there have been plenty of them. The absence of relationship over the last 6 years corresponds directly to my lack of output. Hmmm....
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It was not a Macintosh reference, it referred to a past forum member, "Mac".
 Steve BIAB/RB 2022, Pro Tools 2020, Korg N5, JBL LSR 4328 Powered Monitors, AKG/Shure Mics.
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It was not a Macintosh reference, it referred to a past forum member, "Mac". Oops! Never mind! =8^)
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Eddie,
That may be where you are going terribly wrong.
I heard a really funny recording some years back of a Rolling Stones song writing session captured in the studio.
Billy Preston kept playing this clever riff over and over and over and all the while Mick Jagger was just babbling gibberish into the microphone...until..
"And I miss you...yeah...
"And I'm walking Central Park...singing after dark...yeah...and I miss you!"
Maybe you should try it. Just sayin' man.
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New! XPro Styles PAK 7 for Band-in-a-Box 2024 for Mac!
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Watch the Xtra Styles PAK 18 Overview & Styles Demos video.
Note: The Xtra Styles require the UltraPAK, UltraPAK+, or Audiophile Edition of Band-in-a-Box®. (Xtra Styles PAK 18 requires the 2024 UltraPAK/UltraPAK+/Audiophile Edition. They will not work with the Pro or MegaPAK version because they need the RealTracks from the UltraPAK, UltraPAK+, or Audiophile Edition.
New! Xtra Styles PAK 18 for Band-in-a-Box 2024 for Windows!
Xtra Styles PAK 18 for Band-in-a-Box version 2024 is here with 200 brand new styles to take for a spin!
Along with 50 new styles each for the rock & pop, jazz, and country genres, we’ve put together a collection of styles using sounds from the SynthMaster plugin!
In this PAK you'll find: dubby reggae grooves, rootsy Americana, LA jazz pop, driving pop rock, mellow electronica, modern jazz fusion, spacey country ballads, Motown shuffles, energetic EDM, and plenty of synth heavy grooves! Xtra Style PAK 18 features these styles and many, many more!
Special Pricing! Until September 30, 2024, all the Xtra Styles PAKs 1 - 18 are on sale for only $29 ea (Reg. $49 ea)! Expand your Band-in-a-Box 2024® library with Xtra Styles PAK 18! Order now!
Learn more and listen to demos of the Xtra Styles PAK 18 here.
Watch the Xtra Styles PAK 18 Overview & Styles Demos video.
Note: The Xtra Styles require the UltraPAK, UltraPAK+, or Audiophile Edition of Band-in-a-Box®. (Xtra Styles PAK 18 requires the 2024 UltraPAK/UltraPAK+/Audiophile Edition. They will not work with the Pro or MegaPAK version because they need the RealTracks from the UltraPAK, UltraPAK+, or Audiophile Edition.
New! XPro Styles PAK 7 for Band-in-a-Box 2024 for Windows!
We've just released XPro Styles PAK 7 with 100 brand new RealStyles, plus 50 RealTracks and RealDrums that are sure to delight!
With XPro Styles PAK 7 you can expect 25 rock & pop, 25 jazz, and 25 country styles, as well as 25 of this year's wildcard genre: Celtic!
Here's a small sampling of what XPro Styles PAK 7 has to offer: energetic rock jigs, New Orleans funk, lilting jazz waltzes, fast Celtic punk, uptempo train beats, gritty grunge, intense jazz rock, groovy EDM, soulful R&B, soft singer-songwriter pop, country blues rock, and many more!
Special Pricing! Until September 30, 2024, all the XPro Styles PAKs 1 - 7 are on sale for only $29 ea (Reg. $49 ea)! Supercharge your Band-in-a-Box 2024® with XPro Styles PAK 7! Order now!
Learn more and listen to demos of XPro Styles PAKs.
Watch the XPro Styles PAK 7 Overview & Styles Demos video.
XPro Styles PAKs require Band-in-a-Box® 2024 or higher and are compatible with ANY package, including the Pro, MegaPAK, UltraPAK, UltraPAK+, and Audiophile Edition.
Video - Band-in-a-Box® DAW Plugin Version 6 for Mac®: New Features for Reaper
Band-in-a-Box® 2024 for Mac® - Update Today!
Band-in-a-Box® 2024 for Mac® Video - Over 50 New Features and Enhancements!
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