PG Music Home Forums General Discussion Songwriting 1-4-5

In another thread, Charlie Fogle taught me something I didn't know BiaB could do.

"In the first box type the number 1 and enter
In the second box type the number 4 and enter
In the third box type the number 5 and enter" . . . thank you Charlie.

As a newbie, I think I know what 1-4-5 means. In the key of C major for example it's the progression C-F-G. But what I didn't know is that BiaB is smart enough to equate the numerical note number with its corresponding note/chord in the scale. [There's probably a better way to describe this.]

When I write a song in BiaB, I try to communicate to BiaB what's in my head by giving it the standard chords/chord progression that I think might work; and experiment until something sounds good to me. Likewise, when I communicate with other players I collaborate with, we use standard chord names.

The background here is that I'm a completly self-taught ammatuer song writer (instrumentals) with limited music theory knowledge but can see the value of understanding music theory as much as I can. Also, when I play 1-4-5 progressions on my bass, I know where the "1" is on my fretboard but I'm not thinking "1"; I'm thinking "C". And for some songs that I have committed to memory and don't need a chord sheet (no matter the key) I'm not even thinking "C" but rather I'm thinking geometric patterns and x-y locations on my fretboard. A huge step forward for me (that happened in the past year) is that in certain/rare cases, I know the tone that will be produced before I even fret the note or press the key. It is these memorized songs that I play the best with maximun "feel" and freedom.

So, in my world in BiaB I use traditional note/chord names (C, F, G, etc). And when I play my bass or keyboard I use the same traditional note/chord names and sometimes geometry. So there is a lot going on here; various symbolic music notations, geometry, memory, what is musically pleasing and now, maybe "1-4-5" symbology/arithmetic.

My question is this. Does anyone use the "1-4-5 numeric symbology" as a direct way to communicate to BiaB when writing songs? Or do you enter chords directly as I do? In other words, what value is there in using the numeric notation that Charlie is describing?

I know the 1-4-5 and the I-IV-V but I do not use that nomenclature when imputing chords in BiaB or any other music program. I always use chord names like Cm7b9, or FMaj7, etc. If I see the chord name I know what notes are in said chord whereas if I see a IVm I have to figure out the key signature, find the IVm chord, and then figure out what notes are in it. I prefer to see the chord name up front. YMMV

It will do the Nashville number system as we as Do-Re-Mi.... it's quite capable of speaking several languages musically speaking.

Thanks Mario, you and I are alike in this regard, yet something tells me there is some (hidden?) value in the 1-4-5 method.

Are the "several languages" expressed like this?

1-4-5 = C-F-G in the key of C
1-4-5 = D-G-A in the key of D
1-4-5 = E-A-B in the key of E
1-4-5 = F-Bb-C in the key of F
Etc.

There is value in knowing 1-4-5. If someone says "1-4-5 in the key of C and if you know a little theory or if you have a lot of experience you know that the chords will be C-F-G with the 5 usually G7.

Like previously mention if someone says "lets do a 12 bar blues in C" you will know that the chords will be 1-4-5 or again C-F-G7.

To add to what Mario said, I also don't enter numbers in BIAB and for sure not Do, Re, Mi.

For me, I try to speak the common language of the place I am at. BIAB is only one of the many tools I have. I also play live under many conditions, band, solo, studio, and others.

If I am using BIAB or writing by hand on paper or using a standard notation program, I will use chord names.

I use the "1,4,5" idea to communicate on stage. I could hold up four fingers to tell the bass player to go to the four chord for example. It all depends on who I am playing with and what they know.

If you were in a studio in LA the Nashville number system would not be used much. The top studio players could very well know and understand it. In Nashville, it is the most common way to communicate although there are versions differences from studio to studio.

As Mario alluded to, the 1,4,5 does not give you the key. If I wanted to say that to someone I would say "this is a one four five in the key of Bb for example. So then we know that the four is going to be Eb and the five F.

The more complex your writing becomes and the greater the number of styles you start to play, the more music theory becomes useful. The greater the number of different musicians at various levels you interact with, the greater the need for knowledge of music theory becomes.

Also, sixty years into messing around with music, I still have a major chord chart, a natural minor chord chart, and a circle of fifths chart hanging on the wall in front of me. Then I don't have to try to remember what the fifth of Db is...lol

Billy

One of the things I like about numerical notation is that, once one is familiar with it in the various keys, when a singer struggles in a key, it's relatively easier to change to another. "C is too high ... can we try it in Bb?".

I know it will do several different "languages". I personally do not use the Nashville number system or any other system other than to enter the exact chord names I want to use. However, the beauty of those coded systems is that you enter the numbers per the system and assign the key and it all works perfectly. So while it may not show you the exact chords.... know that of you're using 1,4,5 and have assigned a key of F for example.... the 4 will be Bb.

Many thanks to all that replied on this subject.

I think I know enough now to say that I can't justify the cost of including this numeric notation system in my toolbox at this time. Perhaps at some future point in my musical development this will be more relevant and appealing.

With a little more experience and music theory, whether you study music theory or have it come with experience, the I-IV-V and other numeric offerings will become more natural.

Nashville Notation is a transcription method for song arrangements. It provides a lot more information than just the chord progression. A lot of music symbols found in traditional music notation is substituted with numbers and characters in Nashville Notation. Rhythmic, dynamic, chord voicings, shots, holds, and rests are used with symbols developed by Nashville session musicians. There's notation for all types of phrasings, rhythms, strumming patterns and symbols to indicate precisely how a particular section is to be played.

A song transcribed in Nashville Notation is not dependent on any key signature and the arrangement remains the same regardless of key signature. Once someone has learned and become fairly proficient with the system, it's not unusual to be able to hear a song on the radio for the first time and chart the arrangement completely in real time.

It derived years ago from recording sessions in Nashville. It was not uncommon for a group of session musicians to be hired to play a recording session and none of these musicians could read traditional notation. Often, none of these musicians had ever worked together before, nor worked with the Producer and engineers. With certainty, none would be familiar with the new song to be recorded. As you can imagine, a lot of time was wasted. Nashville Notation was borne from necessity.

Hi Charlie, thanks for the lesson on the Nashville system. Your post is an example of something that should be captured in a PDF file so that future newbies like me can benefit from it. Capturing valuable content in PDF files was discussed here a few months ago in relation to using BiaB but music theory and other related subjects could make sense too.

FWIW, below is the notation that I produced "on the fly" to facilitate communication with the other players when we recorded our latest song. It doesn't capture everything but we found it to be useful.

A Summertime Long Ago

Here is a song you may have listened to written in Nashville Notation.



I have observed that many professional studio musicians can use this system. Whether it is used depends on the music genres and what part of the country/world the studio is in.

Jazz, for example, wonders around out of key enough that the Nashville Number System is more trouble than it is worth. Just my opinion.

There are many variations of the system from studio to studio in Nashville. Time costs money in a studio, so anything that can be done to reduce the cost is often tried.

The educational level of the musicians in question varies with the genres, and, to some extent, age is a factor. The length of time someone has been playing has an effect. Some people who started playing with no idea of music theory generally acquire some along the way. It is possible with today's internet to get a pretty good basic understanding of music theory for free.

Many people in the United States have the money to send their kids to school to study music for many reasons other than becoming a professional musicians. Some of those kids go on to become professionals.

Looking back, I have played with some pretty uneducated blues players. They may have not had formal education but they knew how to play and had a good understanding of basic music theory. They all used something like the Nashville Number System, if only with their hands.

Billy

EDIT: I tried to play this song from the Nashville chart. I have never tried to play it although I have listened to it a few times. I am not sure what the little half eye above the intro chords indicates, arpeggiate perhaps. ( that symbol is not very standard) What becomes readily apparent is that is a system that does not tell you exactly what to play. Go look at the chart, go listen to the recording, and go look up the TAB and you will see what I mean.

It is pretty logical to play this in the key of A on guitar because of the ease of forming the A# dim chord. That is a little more difficult to do in the key of C for example.

Some cool stuff in this thread. Awesome!

But hey, however you call it, pop/country/rock uses 4 chords.

The C F G Am. I IV V Vi (6 minor). 1 4 5 6 minor

Occasionally you see the 2 m7 or 3 m7 and RARELY the 2 Maj, but that is about it. (Except for slash chord variations.)

2 Major?? Oh yeah: (But if you TRY SOMETIMES....)


https://tabs.ultimate-guitar.com/tab/the-rolling-stones/you-cant-always-get-what-you-want-chords-4019

Anyway, in any group I have ever been in, band, or songwriting or anything, the conversation is always like: "Hey are you sure you want to go to the V so fast? Why can't we stay on the 4? Sounds like the right place for the 6 minor..." And so on.

It is as natural as red light, green light, yellow light, yield sign when you are driving. You know these intervals like the back of your hand.

On bass and guitar, there really are only 2 major scale shapes, the "C shape" starting on the fifth string" and the "G shape" starting on the 6th string." Oh, well, actually there is the A formation, and the E formation too, and the D come to think of it....but let's not worry about that right now...

Anyway, all music is just variations on these simple concepts.

It is really not that hard.



P.S. This might help you Billy. Actually a good practice regimen here.

http://www.danwilt.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/07/Nashville-Number-System-Wilt.pdf

But let me give you a pop quiz on Db Billy.

If the 5th of D is A, then the 5th of Db is......

come on you can do it....

A fluh.....laaaaaaaa

A fluh....laaaaaaa

The numbers/numerals thing is a "cool tool for those who knows it".
I don't use it because I wasn't taught it or anything much else & I go out of my way to avoid the progression conventions that are, almost, inextricably tied in with it.
Those conventions exist for good reasons of course: Root/home, movement, floating, resolution etc.
The iv/4 system can be used without being caught up in them, and being a self taught/amateur is one of the easiest ways to avoid being "caught", but there're reasons people say things such as in David's quote,""Hey are you sure you want to go to the V so fast?" There're very strong cultural/training/expectation reasons that are tied into the common chord progressions. Pachelbel REALLY deserves some of the residuals.

After the 1st six taught me in 1976 by my college room mate, (so I could play along to a song I wrote the lyrics to & he the melody/chords), I learnt additional chords by discovery - sometimes moving a shape around and otehr times simply putting fingers in places. As a bass player for a few years before that I was, and still am, quite comfortable "writing" based on single notes and chromaticism.
The way I use chords is based on how I hear them together. Sometimes that matches a common progression. Eventually I learnt the names for most of those discovered chords, (I was past 35 when I found out that the two note "chords" I sometimes used were 5ths/power chords - I've lead a sheltered life), and can type them into BIAB to create "songs"...I've also restricted myself to using chords I can play.
I keep my harmonic vocabulary limited and I work within them and try to avoid the obvious.
I am a bad example of songwriting though and I know that many of my songs give extremely well trained musicians & music teachers headaches because of my failure to provide a "tonal centre" or to stay in a key or for "borrowing" chords that aren't supposed to be borrowed.
As I have a regular audience of just me I'm happy to work with what sounds right to me.

Here endeth my sophistry.

No doubt that pro musicians can use this. And I'm never going to be a pro, just a hobbyist having fun.

Nonetheless, this is all good backgound info for me to be aware of . . . thanks.

<< No doubt that pro musicians can use this. And I'm never going to be a pro, just a hobbyist having fun. >>

Ok. I'm not suggesting that anyone who doesn't use or know the Nashville Number system learn and use it. I just shared that it's a tool in the BIAB tool box that anybody at any musical theory level can use.

But I do want to cast doubt that the Nashville Number System is just a cool tool for those that know it or only useful to pro level musicians.

Anyone at any musical theory level or anyone with no musical theory knowledge at all or even those with false or incorrect belief in what they think is musical theory can with access to and using the BIAB program can 'see' and 'hear' for themselves with no influence or direction from anyone, complex chords, progressions, dynamics and rhythms using Nashville Numbers.

It's not been mentioned but a relative point is a Nashville Number Chart is usually done on a per instrument part that originates from notation containing information common to all instruments such as the time signature, tempo, song structure and then expanded as needed for specific instruments. For instance if the chart Billy posted is notation for a saxophone or piano and he's playing a guitar, he can only interpret it completely, correctly and precisely if it is transcribed for the guitar part intended for him to play.

Anyone who that comes across "the C F G Am. I IV V Vi (6 minor). 1 4 5 6 minor" terms, can then by typing those numerals into a BIAB chord chart, regardless of key, tempo, feel, or time signature can - 'see' and 'hear' that progression. With that progression, a novice may have all the music needed to write a song.

BIAB's version of Nashville Numbers is quite basic and lacks a lot of symbols. But it can do more than just prime numbers. Need a seventh for the V chord, type 57. 59 for the ninth and so on. Those BIAB shortcuts work with using numbers rather than the chord name. Also 1J will give the one chord as a Maj 7th chord.

I've attached a link to a YouTube video of a band recording a song that at this mark in the video, only the musician that charted (Nashville Numbers) the song has heard. The band will listen to a demo provided by the client and then record pro-quality tracks for the client to use in his home studio and record along with these tracks. The Nashville Number Chart is discussed at the 6:35-7:08 section of the video. The whole video is well worth the time to watch. This recording session can be duplicated by anyone that has BIAB and can read the NN Chart or analyze the audio with the ACW. That a PG Music session artist is included in the band is more than sufficient evidence that BIAB is up to the task...

Tracking Day! | Gilder Cam [4]

I watched all of the "Tracking Day" video. It is typical of any professional studio one would find in Nashville. That it was in a house does not change the fact that it is a professional studio in use by professional musicians.

The process and procedures used reflect the way someone with a rough demo could get a good demo and perhaps even a radio-ready demo out of a professional studio at a reasonable cost. Without a vocal by the client or a vocalist used in the studio, the final track would be of limited use unless it was an instrumental.

As was stated, someone listened to the client demo and transcribed it to the extent that there was something to transcribe. That transcription was done in Nashville Number System. It just as well could have been done in standard notation. It is possible that none of those guys could read standard notation. Who knows, but I doubt it.
They looked to be pretty seasoned pros.

A lot of basic demos get made this way along with a few radio-ready songs.

How any of this relates to BIAB through the use of the Nashville Number System is a bit of a mystery to me. Obviously, BIAB can understand very basic numeric symbolic input.

These guys are listening to each other and modifying their playing based on what they hear and then having conversations to further modify the song all in real-time. This is standard recording studio stuff.

You don't have to go to Juilliard to write a song but you can not use NNS without some understanding of music. !,4,5...the 5 of what?

Obviously, most people who buy BIAB have some idea of what it does and will look at the videos that PG Music has made and learn to use the product. Many produce some very good music as can be listened to here on the forum. The studio will never do what BIAB does and BIAB will never do what a studio of the type in the video does. Well...who knows what AI software will do in the future but for the present, I will stick by my statement.

So...just as an experiment, go input the number symbols from the post I made into BIAB and assume it was written only for piano. As BIAB, and your keyboard for that matter does not have the small zero/degree-looking symbol for a diminished chord how will you get the #1dim chord in. How would you even know what that symbol meant or what a sharp diminished chord is? Without some reference, a 1,4,5, and C, F, G are equally meaningless.

Billy

I've found something as simple as a +++ Guitar Chords +++ poster on the wall has helped me understand the guitar better. It works pretty good for electric bass too.

+++ THIS +++ Music Theory Cheat poster tells you much of what you need to know to understand what Band-in-a-Box is doing.