PG Music Home Forums General Discussion Songwriting 1-4-5

That is pretty cool Jim. I have all that sort of charts hanging on the wall but not as well consolidated.
Having that sort of reference material handy is a big plus for an old guy like me who has CRS...lol

I also tried to program BIAB to play the Garth Brooks song using the Nashville Number System. I just programmed the first 12 bars or so where Garth is singing and playing acoustic guitar. I was able to find a remarkably close acoustic guitar part. I have no idea how to enter a diminished chord in BIAB using the NNS, had to write the chord in. Also, I have never seen a symbol that indicates that one should arpeggiate a chord in NNS.

Billy

EDIT: What the first 12 bars of the Garth Brooks song look like in BIAB in NNS.

According to that Cheat Chart it's number or letter plus * BUT according to BIAB it's the letter/number + dim.
According to the numbers system you needn't add it as, if the key is set & the numeral/number added, it should KNOW it's dim.

Nice cheat chart.
Like so may it has far too much going on but it'd still be very handy.

The numerals/number system is a cool tool but it's an "in the know" tool because one has to know each key for it.

"Anyone at any musical theory level or anyone with no musical theory knowledge at all or even those with false or incorrect belief in what they think is musical theory can with access to and using the BIAB program can 'see' and 'hear' for themselves with no influence or direction from anyone, complex chords, progressions, dynamics and rhythms using Nashville Numbers."

OR any other way.

Music theory isn't really theory: it's a grammar for communicating information from a culturally, (let's be honest most theory is based on the tonalities of a couple of hundred years back), language.

The dabbling player/writer, with a limited musical vocabulary would, in all likelihood, enter the chord they play/hear. Using numbers/numerals would create some problems for borrowed chords, modulation etc. - things that BIAB can do but not quite as easily as entering the chords.

It's really hard for the musically educated & adept to get into the shoes of a novice or dabbler. That's why many, MANY music "teachers", Maths "teachers" and such have trouble communicating the thing they love so much.

Lot's of good points from everyone. Some quick comments to clarify some things as they pertain to BIAB Chord Sheet:

<< I have no idea how to enter a diminished chord in BIAB using the NNS >>
A diminished chord is entered into BIAB the same as Standard Chord Display (C,F,Bdim)= 1,4,7dim

<< I see the chord name I know what notes are in said chord whereas if I see a IVm I have to figure out the key signature, find the IVm chord, and then figure out what notes are in it. I prefer to see the chord name up front. >>
What is displayed on the BIAB Chord Sheet is determined by what display is set as the default. Regardless of the Chord Display type entered, the BIAB Chord Sheet displays the default setting.
For Example: Default Chord Display set to Standard Chord Display; BIAB can display standard, Roman Numeral, Nashville Notation, Solfeggio, Notation (Do,Re,Mi)or Fixed Do (Italy/Europe) Do,Re,Mi relative to C.
The User can input a mixture of all of the Chord Displays and the BIAB Chord Chart will display the default selection of Standard Chord Display. If there's another default selection, BIAB Chord Chart will display that default.

According to the BIAB manual, Solfeffio or Fixed Do is very popular internationally.

Wikipedia:
What countries use Do Re Mi?
In European music theory, most countries use the solfège naming convention do–re–mi–fa–sol–la–si, including for instance Italy, Portugal, Spain, France, Romania, most Latin American countries, Greece, Albania, Bulgaria, Turkey, Russia, Arabic-speaking and Persian-speaking countries.

<< So...just as an experiment, go input the number symbols from the post I made into BIAB and assume it was written only for piano. As BIAB, and your keyboard for that matter does not have the small zero/degree-looking symbol for a diminished chord how will you get the #1dim chord in. >>
1dim does the trick.


<<

Originally Posted By: Bass Thumper

Originally Posted By: Guitarhacker

It will do the Nashville number system as we as Do-Re-Mi.... it's quite capable of speaking several languages musically speaking.

Are the "several languages" expressed like this?

1-4-5 = C-F-G in the key of C
1-4-5 = D-G-A in the key of D
1-4-5 = E-A-B in the key of E
1-4-5 = F-Bb-C in the key of F
Etc.

>>
No. This is all one language. Nashville Notation is a single notation system.

<< The numerals/number system is a cool tool but it's an "in the know" tool because one has to know each key for it.

"Anyone at any musical theory level or anyone with no musical theory knowledge at all or even those with false or incorrect belief in what they think is musical theory can with access to and using the BIAB program can 'see' and 'hear' for themselves with no influence or direction from anyone, complex chords, progressions, dynamics and rhythms using Nashville Numbers."

OR any other way. >>

Yes, that's correct but it's irrelevant to BIAB chord entry because BIAB will display the chord with whatever Chord Display option selected.

Hi Charlie,

The screenshot of the BIAB Nashville Number System was after I set the tempo, key of A, and entered the chord names. I then told BIAB to change everything to NNS. The only strange thing was I entered A#dim and it printed out 2bdim or Bbdim which I did not understand as A is a sharp key and there is no Bbdim in the key of A as I understand it. Perhaps I am confused, that has happened once or twice...lol

One of the things we have omitted from all this 1,4,5 conversation is, that it does not take very long to be able to hear and recognize a 1,4,5 by the way it sounds. For sure one may not know what key the 1,4,5, is in because very few of us have perfect pitch but almost all of us humans have pretty good relative pitch. If we hear the 1,4,5, in any key several times, that pattern will be pretty obvious in other keys.

The way I have seen Nashville Number System written most often is like Charlie posted. Written by hand and almost always having the key letter name in a circle at the upper left.

This system was put together a long time ago having nothing to do with BIAB. It was designed to be used by musicians who could play well enough but could not read standard notation. For someone familiar with the system, is generally faster to transcribe and less difficult to read for the players. That is especially true for guitar players because standard notation does not tell you where to put your fingers on a guitar. That is one of the reasons TAB was invented.

It was never expected to be a system that could inform someone who could not play an instrument what to play. And by any measure, it is as arcane to a non-musician as standard notation. With or without being classically trained, what the devil could 2- mean? And even to those people who use the system every day, it is inadequate to indicate solo information and many other things. That is why so many variations and embellishments are common in the studios in Nashville.

OMG, this is turning into a Leo Tolstoy-style post...the guy who wrote War And Peace...lol

Sorry, I can type faster than I can think...lol

Billy

Billy

NN borrows a lot of symbols from traditional notation. In the Garth Brooks song NN image, a dot with a semi circle over the top appears to be a pause symbol placed over a note, you hold the note for longer than its indicated duration.), repeats, a note for an acapella section, there's a specifically noted riff in the solo, I'm not sure, but I believe the quarter note = 114 is a traditional notation symbol.

<< It was never expected to be a system that could inform someone who could not play an instrument what to play. >>

True. It was developed as a system that informed someone that could play an instrument, what to play.

Using Nashville Notation is no different in BIAB than a user importing Chords into the Chord Chart from a text file. It's just something BIAB can do that some users benefit from it in their personal workflow. NN is based on major chord chart theory.

C-D-E-F-G-A-B = 1-2-3-4-5-6-7 and the 2,3 and 6 are minors and the 7 diminished IIRC

In the other thread I used 1-4-5 because that discussion had 1-4-5 theory in other's comments. My example given there allows a novice to follow directions entering the numbers of the thread discussion without any theory or musical experience with an instrument and BIAB will provide a musical rendition of the theoretical 1-4-5 chord progression.

People that use NN and are proficient can mentally enter a chord progression into paper or the BIAB Chord Chart extremely fast. They are so use to charting a song using NN, they find it easier and PG Music accommodated those who are familiar with the system and it's included in their normal workflow.

Clearly, NN follows music theory not replaces or teach it. RayC is correct that any of the notation display types recognized by BIAB can be used to enter chords into the BIAB Chord Sheet and will display in whichever notation display option is selected as the default.

I hadn't realised the richness of the Nashville Notation, usually seeing it refered to just an Nashville Numbering System. I've always used Roman numerals for the keyless notation.

I think one reason it's quick to transcribe/transpose is that one learns the notes in the keys. To start from one key and transpose to another seems to me to involve a calculation every time, either this note/chord +/- X semitones, or "this is the fifth of C, and I want the fifth of E, so I want B. The latter has to be slower.

Once you know music theory, and can understand the NNS, it becomes second nature to you. Kind of like riding a bike..... Key of A.... lets go. It's all there with little conscious thought.

I was in Myrtle Beach a number of years ago.... Paulette Carlson from Hwy 101 was at a local venue so my wife and I went. The band and the show was top quality. She did all her songs just like they were on the records. After the show I got a few minutes to talk with the guitarist in the band. I asked him how long they have been together backing Carlson. His reply was, we're all studio cats from Nashville who flew in yesterday and today and we were hired to do this show. We've never played together as a band before this show. They had one rehearsal session the day of the show.... I didn't notice anyone reading charts on the stage, but that's what separates the professionals from the rest... The solos and fills were close enough (some were exact) to get the job done and the music was tight. Great show.

The NNS is a roadmap that gives the players direction but it doesn't detail the minutia of the song. It's really handy for the sessions that are fast and gotta get it done vs hit songs for a major artist where yeah... there's a chart, but there's also signature licks and details that have to be incorporated into the song.

Nice story indeed. These people clearly were professionals.

Bad News: In my case, I started playing/writing music way too late in life

Good News: Remember that feeling when you were 13 and heard that awesome song for the first time? You might even remember where you were at that time. I still have some of that wonder and thrill. I also have BiaB and helpful, experienced people at this forum to guide, assist and critique. And learning is great fun for me. With limited time and skill I just need to pick and choose which areas to focus on. Music is nearly infinite

Exactly.

It's clear that some folk like certain ways and they flog 'em to death without really paying attention to the where, why & how of others who don't care for those ways.

Music is fun, fulfilling, creative and more. Using the tools you know/can afford and learning new ones you can/care to play & write is the point.

We could be arguing about a preferred interface and, I suspect, the thread would've followed similar lines to this one.

The numeral & numbers systems are great. Professionals use them for a reason, but they do push the brain along a well worn concrete path.

Here's the chord chart for a song I wrote a year ago... a system that uses something like 1 - 4 - 5 isn't going to do a fab job of explaining it...

Hi Ray

What I would generally like to know when talking about a song or playing a song is basic information. What key is the song in, what is the tempo, and what style of music are we dealing with. What actually happens playing live is sometimes you get none of that information. The singer/guitar player starts something off and you need to be able to figure out how to play along to that in about the first three notes. Not always easy.

In the case of what you posted, I would likely assume the key of A as most of the chords come from the A scale. By the end of the first bar, I should have the tempo figured out. I would have some idea of the style.

In and of itself a 1,4,5 only indicates the first, the fourth, and the fifth chord of the scale of the key. It does not explain anything about any other chord progression in a song. The only reason anyone would even bring it up was the fact that a zillion songs are in a 1,4,5.
# 1. Sweet home Chicago E-A-B shuffle
# 2. Love in vain G-C-D shuffle
# 3. sitting on top of the world A-D-E shuffle
# 4. you shook me E-A-B slow blues
# 5. ramblin on my mind E-A-B shuffle
#6. I believe i'll dust my broom D-G-A shuffle
#7. Killing floor A-D-E uptempo
#8. Rock me baby B-E-F shuffle
#9. I'm tore down C-F-G shuffle
#10. Double trouble B-E-F slow blues
#11. Wild Thing any key you like...lol

How else could you communicate to someone that simple chord progression without saying one, four, five? Well, you could say this is in the key of C and the chords are C,F,G but the singer wants it in the key of A so play A,D,E but then again the horn player....lol

For me personally, I don't care how the information is stated. 1,4,5 one four five I IV V written out in standard notation or TAB or both or none of the above. If no one says anything I am going to just listen and play by ear.

There are a lot of very common chord progressions 1,6,4,5 for example. If someone said that to you, it would be expected that you would know the 6 chord is a minor chord. These letters and numbers are just a way to communicate and of course, all this gets much more complex than these simple statements.

I don't use Nashville Number System very often and only when that is what I need to do. People generally don't put a piece of sheet music in front of me but I can muddle through it if I must. It is the old joke about how to get a guitar player to shut up...put a piece of sheet music in front of them...lol

If we are sitting in a room together we can communicate just by listening. No need for all the symbolic stuff!

Billy

Hello PianoBilly

"What I would generally like to know when talking about a song or playing a song is basic information. What key is the song in, what is the tempo, and what style of music are we dealing with. What actually happens playing live is sometimes you get none of that information. The singer/guitar player starts something off and you need to be able to figure out how to play along to that in about the first three notes. Not always easy.

In the case of what you posted, I would likely assume the key of A as most of the chords come from the A scale. By the end of the first bar, I should have the tempo figured out. I would have some idea of the style"

The key is, nominally, Amaj. The tempo is either 125 or 130bpm and it wouldn't be much chop as a jam song.

I've edited my previous post to better reflect what I meant. I used 1-4-5 as short hand for a number/numeral system.

It's not a particularly common progression song so would be difficult to articulate in a system that is key tied.

I write the chords I've played and liked when together. I doubt the number/numeral systems would accommodate that well.

I know a fellow in Canada who co-ordinates, for want of a better word, a jam night in a pub but he makes sure there're a few songs any/everyone attending can play along to if they wish...to do this he prepares a rehearsal vid, posts it to Utub and sends the link to those who've expressed interest. That allows him to expand the vocabulary of himself and the jammers. The biggest pity is that he's a fabulous songwriter, singer, homerecordist as well as a fab guitar player but he's put his own stuff aside for a couple of years now to have fun playing with others.

Biggest laugh of my day.

When the meter is running, those who can't handle the symbolic stuff never get hired again — even in Nashville.

Although lots of pickers work who can only handle Nashville Numbering or Roman numeral chording, those of us who can read music do work more.

Except, of course, folk like Glen Campbell who couldn't read any notation and had to be told the chords but Brian Wilson & others kept hiring him. Exceptions to all rules and rules for all exceptions.

Yes Mario, F#

Yes, Mike, I agree that almost all pro studios require the studio musicians to be able to read standard notation and most generally understand NNS, and TAB. Many can also play very useful parts using only their ears. Those that can not read will not get hired to begin with in most cases. I have actually never been in a studio where people could not read, even the drummers. The exception to that was with some really old blues players.

Generally speaking, studio musicians are some of the most educated and knowledgeable musicians around.

Many people, even guitar players, can read standard notation and play by ear. The two things are not mutually exclusive. Those abilities are very commonly used in a studio situation. Many times people have asked a studio musician to play something off the top of their heads. Not everything that gets recorded was planned out in detail on paper before the session.

I can say for sure I am not likely to sightread guitar music for fun. I assume some people do because for some people the only way they can play is to read.

It is normally necessary to be proficient in music theory to work as a studio musician. It is not necessary to know any theory to play music and get paid to play in a bar for example. The Royal Albert Hall...well that is another thing entirely. Context...

Billy

In the early days of backyard, garage, and basement jams, it was simply play and jam. Practically everything was a 1,4,5 and either in C, D, E, G, or A..... I was quite good at listening and anticipating where songs were headed.


Tempo was set by whoever started the jam...and as long as the drummer could keep it relatively constant.... life was good. TBTH... most jams were in E or A. Occasionally, a band would coalesce from a certain jam session.

I personally LOVE to read sheet music the way some people love to read novels. (Though I love to read novels too--or at least the good ones.)

Everyone is different, but I love musical notation because you can read the musical story, right in front of your eyes.

Here is a page from a copy of Recuerdos De la Alhambra by Tarrega I marked up. At measure 21 the song goes from A minor to A Major. The build up to this transition is such a work of meticulous planning genius, and it takes my breath away every time. Just flat-out gorgeous. I love to play it, and I love to read it. Just to marvel at the perfection.

The ladies seem to love this song as well. Forget Stairway to Heaven. Play this. The A minor to A Major transition first happens in this amazing rendition at the 2 min mark.

A little history to clear up some misunderstandings/misinformation about the numbers system. It was developed in Nashville in the late 50s/early 60s (can't recall exactly when), and it is most often credited to Nashville session musician Charlie McCoy. Charlie saw vocalists using a similar method and thought it would speed up the recording process for studio musicians.

That was the primary reason it was developed and implemented. Not for musicians who didn't know how to read music (although there has been a great number of amazing session players over the years who can't read music at all), but to speed the process up. In those days, and in most of my years in Nashville, the artist didn't write their own songs for the most part. Time was also of the essence, so producers were trying to get as many songs recorded as they could in the allotted time.

Typically, a song is brought to the studio, in those days maybe on a reel to reel tape, acetate, or even just a guitar & lyric sheet. The musicians learn the song on the fly. They don't hear it beforehand, rehearse it, or have any prior knowledge of the song until they hear it in the studio. The musicians usually write the chart themselves, as they are listening to it. Some people write charts beforehand (I always do) but others don't. Let's say it's my song, and I wrote it in the key of Eb. But the singer needs to sing it in G. Imagine all the work and time it would take to transpose a chart written in the standard Eb/Ab/Bb method. With the numbers system, the chart works in any key. So it's a huge time saver. I've had many, many recording sessions where we've tracked 6 or more songs in 3 hours, in large part because of all the time saved by using the numbers system on the charts. One day in particular I remember - I had a double session booked (that is, a 10am and a 2pm, 3 hours each). I wanted to get 12 songs done, so we started an hour early in the morning (9am), and as I always do, I had a couple of extra songs ready in case one or two just didn't come together. So the session was from 9-1, then a lunch break to be followed by another 3 hours from 2-5. At around 12:40, my session leader/piano player said "Well guys, should we go ahead and track the 10th song now or go to lunch early?" We wound up going ahead & cutting it, so we recorded 10 songs in 4 hours. Here's one of them, if you're interested in listening... https://www.reverbnation.com/rogerbrown/song/3677243-it-lingers

Also, it works perfectly in any genre of music, including jazz - although the charts are a bit more cluttered. It's interesting to me that when I came to Nashville, I wrote charts in the standard format. Now I don't know that I can. If someone asks me what chord I'm playing, I say "it's a 3b" or "it's 7b+9". On occasion, someone will say "no, what's the name of the chord" and I have to stop and think about it, because I'm so used to thinking in numbers now.

Like Charlie, I'm not trying to convert anyone to the numbers system. Use what you're comfortable with, there's no right or wrong here. Just pointing out that it's an extremely useful and effective way of writing charts, especially if time is a consideration.

Thanks for the sheet music example David, but that's way above my pay grade. But the video and how she played her piece is superb.

Roger, thanks for the history lesson, I will never be a studio musician. Maybe those that are will adopt the Nashville system if they already heaven't. And your track is very professional.

Glen Campbell is your example? Now you’re being silly. For the record, though he couldn’t sight-read notes, he had no problem with chord charts and I don’t care how many places you read otherwise. Though I did some dates with him, no reason to take my word for it. Carol Kaye did hundreds of sessions with the man.

Carol Kaye and James Burton on Glen Campbell




Thanks, Roger. My point exactly. If you can’t keep up in the studio, you are costing others money. Keep doing that and no one hires you.