I have a midi track in my DAW that is in 6/8 time. Tempo is set to quarter note = 80; i.e. dotted quarter note = 53.
I've created a BIAB song that I want to export to WAV file and sync up with the DAW tracks.
Tried a bunch of settings, but all the 6/8 real tracks output to an out of sync with the other music.
I'm using one of the 6/8 real track STY. I have the beats per measure set to 2 for the song. But if I set tempo to either 80 0r 53, I'm getting the music exported to be out of sync with the DAW midi tracks.
Is there some magic trick that I'm not using here???
I remember a post explaining this very issue with the same time signature but it was deleted by PG. I'm not game to put anymore info as it may get deleted.
6/8 often creates difficulties. Are you sure that the MIDI in your DAW is set to quarter notes? As I'm guessing you're aware (since you mention dotted quarter notes as well as 2 beats), 6/8 time is a 2-beat per bar time signature where each beat is a dotted quarter note.
BIAB uses triplet-based timing in 4/4 to obtain a 6/8 feel. What is the name of the style you are using? I'll have a play around with it. Are you exporting WAV files or MIDI files from BIAB?
In the meantime, I suggest setting the beats back to 4 per bar, generate the song and then watch how the cursor moves across the chord sheet as the song plays. Each bar of the chord sheet will, most likely, correspond to two bars of 6/8. If that's the case, the tempo then indicates that you are getting that number of beats per minute where each beat is triplet-based beat and is the equivalent of a dotted quarter note.
The MIDI file in your DAW is probably not set to a triplet-based beat and the DAW has actually interpreted it as quarter notes. If this is the case, then each bar of 6/8 will most likely have three quarter notes. This is probably where the problems lies.
It's also possible that your DAW automatically reads timings that are associated with a track (MIDI or maybe WAV files that contain acid info). If this is the case, the DAW will automatically adjust the file to suit the tempo set in the DAW.
The only time signatures from BiaB that will since with any other MIDI or audio tracks(s) are 2/4, 3/4 and 4/4. This has been a thorn in my side for years. Peter has explained all BiaB styles are based on those three time signatures. Other time signatures are for notation only.
If you use any other time signatures like 6/8, 5/4, 12/8, etc the only thing you can do is to play the additional instruments/tracks yourself.
I have been told that RealBand can handle some of those time signatures but I have had little success there. However I rarely use RealBand so that may fall on me.
Unclear if the pianist is a total beginner or a professional jazz player?
64 bit Win 10 Pro, the latest BiaB/RB, Roland Octa-Capture audio interface, a ton of software/hardware
If you use any other time signatures like 6/8, 5/4, 12/8, etc the only thing you can do is to play the additional instruments/tracks yourself.
That isn't entirely true, I think, though I fully understand the sentiment and frustration. The help text when one opens the time signature dialog says:
Quote:
"Notes: For TimeSigs higher than 4/4, each bar is spread out over 2 or more bars (eg. 5/4 will be written as 3/4+2/4). For 12/8 or 6/8, use 4/4 with a triplet feel (eg. Irish). For 9/8 use a waltz .
Often the 6/8 or 12/8 are used expressly to accommodate triplet-based music, e.g. that "Irish" hint, or swing as used is, e.g., jazz.
The sad fact is that BiaB uses some hacks to get around it's basic 4/4 structure, which function OK but are, IMHO, a real pain to read. I really struggle trying to follow 5/4, for example' on the BiaB views.
Triplet/swing timing help get the rhythms OK. For notation and/or lead-sheets I use a notation program.
Jazz relative beginner, starting at a much older age than was helpful. AVL:MXE Linux; Windows 11 BIAB2024 Audiophile, a bunch of other software. Kawai MP6, Ui24R, Focusrite Saffire Pro40 and Scarletts .
If users tracks are made in reaper in any time signature they will automatically fit to any chord progression of any other DAW with the same time signature. Real time signatures fit real time signatures. If you have a recorded session in 12/8 then the 12/8 user tracks will fit that session whether they are wav, flac, mp3, wma... or midi. In this day and age it's a normal thing that is expected. So please don't shoot the messenger
If you use any other time signatures like 6/8, 5/4, 12/8, etc the only thing you can do is to play the additional instruments/tracks yourself.
That isn't entirely true, I think, though I fully understand the sentiment and frustration.
Then I have no idea what I am doing wrong because I have never been able to take a BiaB non 2-3-4/4 time signature to work with other companies non 2-3-4/4 time signatures in Studio One Pro.
Originally Posted By: Gordon Scott
The help text when one opens the time signature dialog says:
Quote:
"Notes: For TimeSigs higher than 4/4, each bar is spread out over 2 or more bars (eg. 5/4 will be written as 3/4+2/4). For 12/8 or 6/8, use 4/4 with a triplet feel (eg. Irish). For 9/8 use a waltz .
Often the 6/8 or 12/8 are used expressly to accommodate triplet-based music, e.g. that "Irish" hint, or swing as used is, e.g., jazz.
Workarounds don't really work. 9/8 is not 3/4. Take a BiaB 9/8 style, bring it into your DAW, then add another companies 9/8 track and see if they line up. If you stay in BiaB it may work but not out in the real world.
Originally Posted By: Gordon Scott
The sad fact is that BiaB uses some hacks to get around it's basic 4/4 structure, which function OK but are, IMHO, a real pain to read. I really struggle trying to follow 5/4, for example' on the BiaB views.
Triplet/swing timing help get the rhythms OK. For notation and/or lead-sheets I use a notation program.
I agree.
I am not trying to start a war Gordon just trying to better explain my situation. We both have been around MIDI for a long time and it just gets me so frustrated that BiaB can't handle time signatures other than 2/4, 3/4 or 4/4.
Unclear if the pianist is a total beginner or a professional jazz player?
64 bit Win 10 Pro, the latest BiaB/RB, Roland Octa-Capture audio interface, a ton of software/hardware
True, all of this. Most time signatures above 4/4 are compound and “irregular” 6/8 can sometimes sound as two bars of 3/4, but, often it is 4/4+2/4 or 2/4+4/4. In 5/4 you have 3/4+2/4 and 2/4+3/4, but also 4/4 and an extra 1/4. 7/4 gives you lots of possibilities, as some musicians (not only in jazz, but in folk or pop music also) know: 6/4+1/4, 3/4+4/4 or 4/4+3/4. JackDeJohnette’s Nine over Reggae is testament to the wonderful possibilities of compound time signatures. 2/4+3/4+4/4. In other words: triplets are not always a workaround,
Though maybe still rarely used, other hard- and software is already perfectly capable of catering for your odd time signatures needs (Ableton, Yamaha psr series, Cubase, Studio One etc…). Roland, Yamaha, Ketron and Korg have since long offered odd time sigs has proven. Sadly, they lack the advantages of band in a box, including the possibility of notation.
Pgmusic is focusing on mainstream music in a variety of genres and recordings of real musicians. Though wonderful and clearly appreciated by lots, it leaves a lot to be desired for the more adventurous, midi inclined musician.
Biab, Kontakt, Sampletank and lots of nice libraries, from Fluffy audio to Abbey Road drums. Check out these great contemporary Jazz Styles: www.jazzstylezz.com
I agree. We both have been around MIDI for a long time and it just gets me so frustrated that BiaB can't handle time signatures other than 2/4, 3/4 or 4/4.
And me.
I did say in my post "The sad fact is that BiaB uses some hacks to get around it's basic 4/4 structure". And I do mean hacks.
Generally I use BiaB for accompaniment when practicing and mostly, for that at least, using triplets gets me over the line. For me, some time signatures are simply too hard or too complex to handle in BiaB, so I just don't try. Even "triplet feel" can be awkward.
Last edited by Gordon Scott; 10/21/2211:04 AM.
Jazz relative beginner, starting at a much older age than was helpful. AVL:MXE Linux; Windows 11 BIAB2024 Audiophile, a bunch of other software. Kawai MP6, Ui24R, Focusrite Saffire Pro40 and Scarletts .
Thanks to all the posts from everyone. I've used Band in a box since actually the DOS version, and it has been generally great for most of the time. Since the BIAB real tracks have specifically 6/8 styles (even 9/8, 12/8 etc) I presumed that they had updated their code to support this.
What I did at this point was create a midi track in my DAW (in my case Cubase 12) where the tempo there is set to quarter note = 80, and the time signature track is set to 6/8. In this case, expressed in minutes, this song translates to 4:34. Expressed in measures it's 120 measures.
I then input the chord structure in BIAB (which constitutes 120 measures) and for now I turned off the "automatic ending". I selected one of the 6/8 styles (in this case _ROOTLES.sty), set the measures to 2 beats per measure and set the TEMPO to 53 (which is the dotted quarter equivalent of quarter=80). In this case, the song outputs as 4:45 when outputting the real tracks to audio (wav) and of course don't align with the cubase tracks when playing. I also tried shifting the BIAB TEMPO to 55, and in BIAB it indicated 4:34 time, but when I output the WAV files they came in shorter (like 4:20 or so) and of course didn't align with the other tracks.
Since I was interested in obtaining the wav real track output, I did not test pulling out MIDI from BIAB to see if that would match.
In any case, I will continue to test with this and see if I can get any closer to solution, but I think one of the posters was correct that this is an area that probably needs re-working if you really want to take advantage of anything past 2/2, 3/4. 4/4.
Once again, thanks very much for all the quick replies that I've seen here!
Thanks Noel, I posted a more detailed update but a) yes I'm outputting WAV not midi from BIAB and b) my MIDI tracks in DAW (cubase12) are set to quarter note = 80 in tempo track and signature set to 6/8.
In BIAB I tried setting using a 6/8 style and setting to 2 beats per measure, and set tempo to either 53 or 55 (dotted equivalent of 80 quarter)
Thanks for your thoughts, and this seems to be the dilemma that I was facing here. I've used BIAB since the earliest midi days (DOS program) and have enjoyed many of the advances in the program, and the fact that they had styles published in latest versions labelled as 6/8, 9/8 etc gave me hope that these would be supported in reality.
But seems like I'm not getting the magic setting combination to get these to line up to my Cubase tracks with 6/8 (not really a complex time signature and not really that uncommon.)
Your detailed explanation helps a great deal. I can now appreciate your problem.
As I see it, the problem arises because converting 80 quarter notes per minute to dotted quarter notes per minute gives (2/3 * 80 =) 53.3333333333333. It's that decimal place variation that is causing the issue as BIAB cannot accommodate decimal point tempos.
The quarter note equivalent of 53 dotted quarter-notes per minute is (53*3/2 =) 79.5. My calculations suggest that if you work at 79.5 in Cubase rather than 80, the BIAB files at 53 should match (if you ignore the 2 bar intro in BIAB and align the audio).
Since the alignment is not out by a great deal, you should also be able to time-stretch or time-shrink your BIAB wav file to match with file in Cubase.
I use Reaper and in a situation like this, what I would do is... align the left sides of the two tracks. I then go to the right end of the file I want to stretch/shrink, press and hold CTRL+ALT and drag the end of the faulty file to match the other file.
Below is a video clip that I found regarding time-stretching in Cubase.
I hope these thoughts help.
Regards, Noel
NOTE: the ratios 2/3 and 3/2 arise because 80 bpm (1/4 notes) has a single beat consisting of two eighth notes, while 53 bpm (dotted 1/4 notes) has three eighth notes per beat.
As I see it, the problem arises because converting 80 quarter notes per minute to dotted quarter notes per minute gives (2/3 * 80 =) 53.3333333333333. It's that decimal place variation that is causing the issue as BIAB cannot accommodate decimal point tempos.
So one option might be to set the tempo to 81, for example, which is divisible by three.
Jazz relative beginner, starting at a much older age than was helpful. AVL:MXE Linux; Windows 11 BIAB2024 Audiophile, a bunch of other software. Kawai MP6, Ui24R, Focusrite Saffire Pro40 and Scarletts .
As I see it, the problem arises because converting 80 quarter notes per minute to dotted quarter notes per minute gives (2/3 * 80 =) 53.3333333333333. It's that decimal place variation that is causing the issue as BIAB cannot accommodate decimal point tempos.
So one option might be to set the tempo to 81, for example, which is divisible by three.
Hi Gordon,
Yes, that's definitely worth trying. It should also work since the dotted 1/4-note rhythm would then be exactly 54.
I have a musescore and it fits in the DAW at the same time signature. realband will import it and give the 6 chords on the bar, if the BiabVST could be made to support these time signatures it would solve the issue rather than having to redo all the Biab programming. The BiabVST is working in DAWs so it need to comply with their time signatures and tempo maps to add any new tracks to their projects.
Wow, thanks I think you may be right about the fractions...
I'll give it a try changing the tempo in cubase.
Also, FYI I have reaper installed too, but have never really delved much into it. I'd been using Cubase for years (back when they had a dongle that plugged into the LPT port...)
So I guess between that and using BIAB DOS version...guess I'm showing my age...
Anyway your suggestion is great and I'll try that and see if I can get things sync'd up...
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