There have been a LOT of great new additions to the guitars (both electric and acoustic) with many that are aimed at "singer songwriter" style of playing. (Thanks! for that!!!)
This is NOT the case with the BIAB pianos. We have a HUGE amount of GREAT piano tracks. But they are mainly intended to be part of a full production - and are often very "busy" - "full bodied" you might say.
Singer songwriters who play piano typically play "subtle" piano. Mainly chords (on the beat) with grace notes (before or after the chord).
It would be nice to have a full suite of subtle songwriter piano tracks that could be used to create "intimate" piano/vocal recordings.
Often these songs will begin with JUST block chords. (A section?) Then the second verse opens those chords up a little with grace notes. (C section?) The chorus will, again, be slightly busier - but NOT "showy". (B section?) In addition - as an alternative, there are often later verses (or a bridge) that will use chords up an octave (no bass notes) for a "softening"... (D section?)
NOT Elton John or Billy Joel piano (they are "showy" players)
Floyd, I don’t write in that genre, and I don’t recognize most of the tunes you wisely gave as examples, but I’ll add a comment and a question.
Comment: there does seem to be more emphasis on new guitar tracks than on piano tracks.
Question: just checking, in the styles you use, do the piano RealTracks have the ‘Simpler’ option in the picker, and does it do anything in these tracks? For example, if it played block chords, then you could generate two tracks, with just one using the Simpler option, and mute each track where desired.
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I will ask you though Floyd, have you looked at some of the MIDI or MIDI SuperTrack styles? There are a fair number of styles that include piano. I've found one that has only held chords, some really nice patterns for right hand and left hand pianos, rehearsal piano, country ballads. Add a nice sounding VSTi and you might already have some of what you're asking for.
FJ, thanks for all the examples. Allow's us to know exactly what you are looking for. And ya, these are not the typical RT piano offerings from BIAB.
For me I look first at the BAIB MST pianos for this groove/feel. But really because this provides for the piano sound by VST, which is critical when it is just voice and piano. You don't get that option with RTs.
Then there is the Singer/Sounwriter pak from ToonTracks. I think this provides the most midi options for this sound. These provide multiple options to insert intro, verse, pre chorus, chorus, bridge all at specific designed tempos. But you already know that...
Yes EZKeys and Yes thats the Midi pak, and Yes about that Rabbit hole thing. But there are several of us here in the forum who have traveled down and back several time. I suspect FJ may be one.
And in regards to expensive. The secret is buy only when on sale (just like BIAB). That Singer Songwriter pak was likely $10-12 USD when I got it on sale.
Yes, they require EZKeys. Just wait for a sale. I have picked up a few EZKeys for around $50-$70 USD when they were on sale.
But you only need one EZKey to run all of the MIDI. There are a number of simple piano styles included in the following EZKey's MIDI: Big Band Classic Soul Contemporary R&B Emotional Ballads And many others. I also purchase them only when they are on sale.
They are found under Variations 01.
You can take an EZKey MIDI, drag it to your DAW, and use it with a BiaB style. I have done this a few times. You may be able to use EZKeys in BiaB but someone else will have to verify that as I don't that kind of thing in BiaB.
I am really impressed with EZKey MIDI.
Unclear if the pianist is a total beginner or a professional jazz player?
64 bit Win 10 Pro, the latest BiaB/RB, Roland Octa-Capture audio interface, a ton of software/hardware
Floyd, I don’t write in that genre, and I don’t recognize most of the tunes you wisely gave as examples, but I’ll add a comment and a question.
Comment: there does seem to be more emphasis on new guitar tracks than on piano tracks.
Question: just checking, in the styles you use, do the piano RealTracks have the ‘Simpler’ option in the picker, and does it do anything in these tracks? For example, if it played block chords, then you could generate two tracks, with just one using the Simpler option, and mute each track where desired.
That's a good thought. However... Anytime that I have tried the "Simpler" option I cannot tell much difference from the original RT. Having to build a track for multiple tracks (muting), would have to be labeled "a work around". RTs dedicated to the style - "simple songwriter piano" would certainly be better - and might draw a few new customers who might be looking for that type of tracks...
I will ask you though Floyd, have you looked at some of the MIDI or MIDI SuperTrack styles? There are a fair number of styles that include piano. I've found one that has only held chords, some really nice patterns for right hand and left hand pianos, rehearsal piano, country ballads. Add a nice sounding VSTi and you might already have some of what you're asking for.
Another good suggestion. However... I find it difficult (quite tedious) to try to find this style of piano in MIDI styles. (For me) that requires loading in every MIDI style and then auditioning the piano. I don't know of a way to narrow that search down. I once tried to do a similar thing for acoustic guitar MIDI tracks (that are included in early styles). It was FAR too time consuming to continue for long....
Then there is the Singer/Sounwriter pak from ToonTracks. I think this provides the most midi options for this sound. These provide multiple options to insert intro, verse, pre chorus, chorus, bridge all at specific designed tempos. But you already know that...
Yes, EZKeys provides a lot of what I am asking for in RTs. And I have about 20 EZKeys MIDI paks (including the Singer/Songwriter pak). The problem there is that the "answer" is "Go buy EZKeys and the necessary MIDI paks..."
It would be nice if BIAB provided a whole suite of "Songwriter Piano" RTs. So that the "answer" would be "Buy Band-In-A-Box!!!"
1839:Piano, Acoustic, Rhythm PopModernGrooveA-B Ev16 075 ....isn't bad
2365:Piano, Acoustic, Rhythm CelticAir Ev 085 - works for some things. The piano sound of the the RT is questionable, but there is a MIDI SuperTrack, so you can choose a different sound source (a good thing!)
MIDI SuperTracks 2999:Piano, Rhythm CountryFolk8thsMike Ev 085 - not bad MIDI SuperTracks 2853:Piano, Rhythm CountryPopMike12-key Ev 085 - nicely if you keep the tempo lower (60-65) MIDI SuperTracks 2831:Piano, Rhythm GospelSlowBalladMike Ev 085 (nice at 65 bpm)
MIDI SuperTracks 3674:Piano, Rhythm NewAgeArp16 Ev16 090 - This is quite nice if played at 70 bpm
Last edited by floyd jane; 01/06/2304:00 AM. Reason: Adding more RTs that "work"
Another good suggestion. However... I find it difficult (quite tedious) to try to find this style of piano in MIDI styles. (For me) that requires loading in every MIDI style and then auditioning the piano. I don't know of a way to narrow that search down. I once tried to do a similar thing for acoustic guitar MIDI tracks (that are included in early styles). It was FAR too time consuming to continue for long....
I agree. Finding individual MIDI tracks should be as easy as finding individual RTs or Super MIDI Tracks.!
Unclear if the pianist is a total beginner or a professional jazz player?
64 bit Win 10 Pro, the latest BiaB/RB, Roland Octa-Capture audio interface, a ton of software/hardware
As an example, have a listen to 1949: Piano, Acoustic, Soloist PopRootsyJohn Ev16. A lot of it is quite good.
But you can hear a stop in front of lot of chords. And once you hear it one BiaB piano track, you hear it on all the piano tracks.
And intermittently, you'll hear the timing of a downbeat is off, like a slight hesitation by the pianist.
OK, easy to hear if you solo the piano. Just may need to be hidden in the mix. I am afraid this may be the current "state of the art".
There are A LOT of Piano RealTracks that have a "funny" (odd?) sound. They seem to be drenched in reverb and often have a "wobble/worble" to them. Particularly the older one. They are basically unusable as a "piano only" track (though usually okay in a full production).
SO... MIDI SuperTrack of any new piano RTS is essential (I believe PGMusic is already doing this - including a MIDI SuperTrack for any new piano RTs). Applying a 3rd party VSTi piano allows for a clean, unprocessed piano sound. It also makes it possible to use the piano track at a much wider range of tempos.
Adding MIDI SuperTracks for the older existing piano RTs that do not have them would be nice...
… SO... MIDI SuperTrack of any new piano RTS is essential (I believe PGMusic is already doing this - including a MIDI SuperTrack for any new piano RTs)…
Really? I must have missed that announcement. That would be very good news.
My understanding was only that piano tracks now have accurate MIDI notation because they were recorded on a digital piano, so the correct notation was captured at the same time that the audio was recorded for a RealTrack. Thus, anyone could capture the playing to be used by a different synth.
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… SO... MIDI SuperTrack of any new piano RTS is essential (I believe PGMusic is already doing this - including a MIDI SuperTrack for any new piano RTs)…
Really? I must have missed that announcement. That would be very good news.
My understanding was only that piano tracks now have accurate MIDI notation because they were recorded on a digital piano, so the correct notation was captured at the same time that the audio was recorded for a RealTrack. Thus, anyone could capture the playing to be used by a different synth.
There was no "announcement". ALL of the new pianos and organ RTs (in 2023) have a corresponding MIDI SuperTrack. It makes sense that once they (PGMusic) realized that MSTs were a good thing they would have any future recording (of MIDI capable instruments - like pianos/keyboards) - would have the MIDI captured while the performance for the RealTracks occurs to create the MST. But...that is just an assumption on my part.
ALL of the new pianos and organ RTs (in 2023) have a corresponding MIDI SuperTrack. It makes sense that once they (PGMusic) realized that MSTs were a good thing they would have any future recording (of MIDI capable instruments - like pianos/keyboards) - would have the MIDI captured while the performance for the RealTracks occurs to create the MST. But...that is just an assumption on my part.
I can't imagine this is true? While I agree the RTs on Piano and keyboards do have the midi with full velocity and pedal controllers included with the audio, but I don't believe that a separate SMT is also included to replicate the RT/Midi instrument. I looked and the new RTs and new SMTs and I don't see the alignment. But...that is just an assumption on my part.
Right, this could use clarification. Or a deep dive into past posts. I think I recall some PG staffer saying all the pianos in BIAB had notation now. Maybe I misinterpreted that to mean all, ever, rather than just the new ones. And I don't know if that's even right about the new ones. But I do remember something was said about this.
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I can't imagine this is true? While I agree the RTs on Piano and keyboards do have the midi with full velocity and pedal controllers included with the audio, but I don't believe that a separate SMT is also included to replicate the RT/Midi instrument. I looked and the new RTs and new SMTs and I don't see the alignment. But...that is just an assumption on my part.
And then checked the list of MIDI SuperTracks (in the program)...
....and found every one of them in the list.
Here is the list of new 2023 Piano/Keyboard RTs. I count ~ 25.
Then in the "Select Midi Super Tracks Window", I have 218 Piano SMTs (Froms #1796 -# 4430). I see no way to fully compare the titles of the SMTs to the RTs to confirm which are identical? If I just look and the highest number SMTs, assuming these are the newest (2023), then Yes I see Kevin, and Miles and Daniel ... so I guess these could be the same performance files as the RTs, but not sure how to confirm that without listening to each one. Kinda wish the numbering system would have lined this up for identification.
But back to the point which I may have confused... Fact is, I have always (for at least a decade) found the midi provided in the RT Keys to be equivalent in quality to the midi provided in the MSTs. It is easy to drag the midi portion of the RT Keys to my DAW and use them just like MST midi with a VST. Although I never felt they might be identical. That was my only point. Sorry for confusion. So OK, lets ask this question directly to the powers to be. I posted message to developers.
Excellent suggestions, and that's fantastic that you've put so many great youtube examples in there. That makes it way more likely that we'll be able to add styles that will be close to what you have in mind. I'd love for us to add a lot of new songwriter pianos this year...
************************* Tobin Frank (he/him) PG Music Inc.
Excellent suggestions, and that's fantastic that you've put so many great youtube examples in there. That makes it way more likely that we'll be able to add styles that will be close to what you have in mind. I'd love for us to add a lot of new songwriter pianos this year...
And in general - it would be nice that "Force to Simple arrangement" actually minimized embellishment and was a much less busy track - that goes for all Real Tracks.
MacMini M1 - BIAB2021 - Logic Pro X - iZotope Music Production Suite - Scaler 2 - far too many Waves plugins and Line 6 Guitars and boards + a fantastic Yamaha THR10ll mini Amp - Avid MBOX Studio
Peters' Garage is available on all major streaming services
One other wonderful option that'd arise at that point, would be to have that relaxed intimacy, but then be able to "Jazz Up" the chords played so that a wider palette would be possible...
Thank you for this very constructive post. You say out loud what others would not dare. In your analysis everything is correct. I will add that for guitar solos, a single realtrack is not enough. On a theme, there should be two or three with the same sounds to be able to easily apply variations and bring your creative mind into play. A big thank you to you, renowned musician.
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