PG Music Home Forums PG Music Product Forums Band-in-a-Box VST and Pro Tools/AAX DAW Plugin (Windows) If SFZ Can Do It So Can BBPlugin

But, as I mentioned earlier, forum users were unable to agree on what functions the plugin needs. I suspect many current Band-in-a-Box users have not given much thought to what functions they would expect the plugin to perform.
Band-in-a-Box users would get the identical song sections, layout and multistyles in the BBPlugin. Who put all the time and effort into this coming into fruition ? I heard JJJ mention a VST version of Biab, so I put a lot of time effort and posting ways to do it, but there was zero responses or ideas from anyone else at all. It always seems to be left to me to find ways, even hacking into Biab to get into to do things that makes life easier. OMG I should not have to do that.



That is an apples to oranges comparison between your Reaper script and plugin code. There is no way a non-coder like myself can judge how easy it is to modify the plugin code so the plugin can generate up RealDrums. I don't understand how that statement is relevant to the conversation.
PowerTracks Generates up RealDrums it's self without using bbw2 bbw4 in the back ground !

Agree but let's change the statement just a little bit; how's this:

Why did I change your statement from "was" to "should be"? Because presently a user can not save a Band-in-a-Box (BiaB) SGU or MGU file and know for sure the file will work properly in the plugin. Back to the first part of this discussion, certain main BiaB program functions that are saved in a SGU or MGU file do not work in the plugin.
As I said before Band-in-a-Box users would get the identical song sections, layout and multistyles in the BBPlugin, the end result of it all is linear tracks. The Biab Track Injector put the identical tracks/sections in Biab in a DAW, that's what this will do. So you don't need Pitch Invaders and all the other stuff in the BBPlugin.


My highest priority is for the plugin to utilize ALL the main program functions that can be stored in a SGU or MGU file.
YES that's what this will do !

For example the main BiaB program SGU or MGU file can store MultiStyles, can the plugin reconstruct them? The main BiaB program SGU or MGU file can store F5 Bar Settings, can the plugin implement those settings?
YES that's what this will do ! I even posted MultiStyle multi time signature biab songs direct in Reaper Track Injector.
https://www.dropbox.com/s/4x0l5ebofxcg4ju/Reaper-Biab-Track-Injector-09.mp4?dl=0

I agree but what producer is going to work on a SGU or MGU file in the main BiaB program only to find the work does not correctly transfer?
They won't be going near the main program ! They are DAW users they use Superior Drummer 3 with 24bit audio on a 250GB HD

No! It's not an either or situation and it never should be. The main BiaB program is where an audio producer should start the song creation and then use the plugin to review alternate instrumentation and riffs.
No! they won't be going near the main program ! They are DAW users, they don't want to learn the main program, that would be a nightmare expecting them to learn the old Biab in a studio where time is money, they want EZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZ. Old Biab users who use Biab, if they want some tracks in the DAW they freeze the SGU and the BBPlugin will open it and playback identical. You just can't force them to learn Biab they would end up jumping off a cliff

While that is a nice idea there is no sign PG Music is interested in competing with arranger keyboards. Sometimes when you are a small, family owned business you choose not to compete with giants of the industry.
Is that what they said ??? what was the whole idea of Biab midi styles and conductor ?
https://www.dropbox.com/s/4sdl87ge4y9y5kc/Sforzando-Arranger.mp4?dl=0

Why is wanting the plugin to accurately recreate the tracks in a main BiaB program SGU or MGU file pointless? How does that limit the plugin potential? Don't you believe the plugin should accurately playback a SGU or MGU file?
I have to keep repeating this, that is what it does "accurately recreate"
https://www.dropbox.com/s/4x0l5ebofxcg4ju/Reaper-Biab-Track-Injector-09.mp4?dl=0

But the frozen tracks were created in the main BiaB program. You just proved my point that an audio producer likely will use both the main BiaB program and the plugin. Earlier you said leave the main BiaB program for the old folks and let the DAW users have the plugin. I just can't envision up and coming audio producers getting SGU or MGU files from us old folks. Just a little joke here.
I said this for the benefit of old Biab users so the can easily open the Biab song in the BBPlugin identical. Charlie wants these guys in Professional Studios to use the old complex Delphi Biab GUI as I said they use Superior Drummer 3 and ya think the Biab GUI is going to turn them on ? You must think of there health and wellbeing.

Great conversation. It's nice to exchange thoughts and look at different points of view.

Band-in-a-Box users would get the identical song sections, layout and multistyles in the BBPlugin.

PowerTracks Generates up RealDrums it's self without using bbw2 bbw4 in the back ground !

No! they (audio producers) won't be going near the main program ! They are DAW users, they don't want to learn the main program,

Is that what they said ??? what was the whole idea of Biab midi styles and conductor ?

These settings are ideal for live performance or “jam sessions” where you aren’t entering new Band-in-a-Box songs but want full control of the playback.

Not until the plugin is able to accurately interpret a MGU or SGU song file. Earlier you agreed that should be the ultimate plugin goal. Presently the plugin can not accurately duplicate all song arrangements constructed in the main Band-in-a-Box program.
That is why I'm still here ! I'm not a programmer and knew nothing when I came her in 2009, I made Biab Track Inject in a short time it does all that.

I was not aware PowerTracks has that capability until you told me. Hopefully the main PowerTracks developer or the plugin developer will read this discussion and strike up a conversation about how the plugin can obtain the same capability.
Haven't you studied this: Making RealDrums Styles with Band-in-a-Box® there is a lot more details there than for UserTracks

I disagree. Audio producers learn new products everyday. Yes time is money. The time audio producers spend learning how to use the chord sheet to build a song arrangement is money they may not loose because they can't get the audio track their customer desires when the customer needs it.
I've mentioned it to some in Nashville and they said they tried and could not work it out, my first dealings with Biab/RB was the wonderful end results BUT so much frustration, this IS the only reason why I'm still here, I went to Toontrack forum once to suggest EZGuitar/Bass. I was in RapidComposer beta forum suggesting functions and features and they were all implemented right away, no arguing, no fighting, no fierce opposition if you suggest mute/solo buttons that drag out for years until they are finally implemented: "solo mute button, unheard of what is this craziness ??" same deal when I suggested solo/mute for RealBand, Volume Automation in RealBand so you don't have to destructive edit that Charlie loves, only just now implemented in Biab along with non destructive RealTrack editing. Again where would you guys be now ?

No, I said PG Music has not shown any interest in competing with arranger keyboards. This quotation from the BiaB user manual doesn't remind me of an arranger keyboard.
I said they need to do it before Yamaha do it, and this was some time back but not Yamaha but KETRON has just done it. Are they competing with PG now ? Can I send chords from my DAW to Ketron and get RealTracks sent back ?? YES

When we discuss accurately recreating the tracks from a Band-in-a-Box song file you refer to your Reaper Track Injector script. I understand you are using your Reaper Track Injector script to suggest: (1) if tracks are generated in the main BiaB program, (2) if generated tracks are frozen in the main BiaB program and (3) if the song file is saved as a SGU or MGU file then (1) tracks do not need to be regenerated and (2) each track's wave instructions can be read to regenerate tracks that are identical to what was saved in the song file or the wave instruction data can be manipulated to create new tracks. Is my understanding correct? If so then the Reaper Track Injector script reinforces how the main BiaB program is required to generate and freeze tracks so the wave instructions can be read later on.
Yes the Track Injector reads the Biab track data, but once that generate code is moved to the BBPlugin it will be all done in the Plugin without bbw4. The Plugin won't have to wait inline for the Biab Delphi guys to fix/add something to bbw4 so the Plugin works again, it will be all in the BBPlugin, self contained, it can't head any other way, it's divine providence.

Your assumption is audio producers will not try the main Band-in-a-Box program because of the look of the interface and difficulty to use. Of course I disagree.
Yes I agree they will be turned on by being able to sync it to their DAW, any time signature, any decimal tempo map, over 255 bars and even VST3 plugins. Do you know how many years I fought to get VstTimeInfo for VSTs like EZdrummer ?? again this is the whole reason why I'm here, see what I'm doing now, this is all part of it, I did not give up back in 2009 and say "I could not be bothered". What I would like to see is users get more involved, test things out to prove it to yourselves OMG if you can use Biab you can try Reaper and the things I post, you can't condemn before a thorough investigation. You are too scared to try Reaper and you say that Studio guys will learn Biab ???
How many Biab users have even be bothered to try the Biab scripts in Reaper to see how easy things can work so as to make Biab better ?? REAPER is FREE to try n try n try... Again if I wasn't here what would you guys have now ???

The plugin does look much better than the main program. The plugin is adequate for simple song file creation. The plugin will likely introduce new users to Band-in-a-Box. However the plugin will not replace the main BiaB program in creating songs that are not simple.
So Studio users will be looking to make up complex songs and will need Biab ? every song on the radio would of been made up in a Studio most likely using Pro Tools. They can add tracks/sections from the BBPlugin to the complex recorded DAW sessions. Are you saying they should give up doing it this way and move to Biab ? Biab has only just now got bar to bar beat to beat regen for RealTracks only.

As audio producers require more intricate tracks and discover that the main Band-in-a-Box program can meet their needs they will disregard the main program's interface. As the need arises they will learn how to utilize F5, F7, F8 and all the other advanced arrangement tools the main BiaB program offers. The main BiaB program is not going away.
Is Superior Drummer 3 & EZBass used for simple song creation ? what time signatures and tempo maps do they have, are they limited to 255 bars, can they use 24bit wav files ? The BBPlugin can work the same and not only use midi but recorded audio tracks.
It's wonderful how Studio guys can make up songs in Biab and it fits any time signature in their DAW. Old users going from the 90's into their 90's will still have Delphi Biab, but the BBPlugin/Standalone will become the new Biab for new users as the code is moved into the Plugin -Pitch Invaders and so many other bloated things. You have Tranzport in Biab but where is the BBsyncVST ? EZDrummer > EZBBvst. I showed higher than 4/4 time signatures UserTracks being transferred from the the BBPlugin to the DAW and fitting.


As audio producers compare the cost of the Audiophile package against the cost of loosing a customer because they don't have the backing tracks a customer wants the Audiophile package is a good value.
I purchased the Audiophile the day after the first time I received Biab. But where is the 24bit 48khz WavePack Audiophile ? Toontrack has a 24bit wav file 250gig Hard Drive.

My stand alone version of sforzando is 1.6.0.5 6/29/21 and the vst version is 1.9.2.7.6/29/21 but like Dan, sforzando is working ok in my BIAB software, so I'll leave things as they are. In my case, I also don't have any current use for the standalone and I'm not looking to risk breaking my BIAB program.

When we discuss accurately recreating the tracks from a Band-in-a-Box song file you refer to your Reaper Track Injector script. I understand you are using your Reaper Track Injector script to suggest: (1) if tracks are generated in the main BiaB program, (2) if generated tracks are frozen in the main BiaB program and (3) if the song file is saved as a SGU or MGU file then (1) tracks do not need to be regenerated and (2) each track's wave instructions can be read to regenerate tracks that are identical to what was saved in the song file or the wave instruction data can be manipulated to create new tracks. Is my understanding correct? If so then the Reaper Track Injector script reinforces how the main BiaB program is required to generate and freeze tracks so the wave instructions can be read later on.

Once that generate code is moved to the BBPlugin it will be all done in the Plugin without bbw4. The Plugin won't have to wait inline for the Biab Delphi guys to fix/add something to bbw4 so the Plugin works again, it will be all in the BBPlugin, self contained.

But, instead of embracing your idea PG Music uses a bridge program to interface between the main Band-in-a-Box (BiaB) program and the plugin. Since PG Music also uses a bridge program to interface between the main BiaB program and RealBand I believe that action implies PG Music favors bridge programs.
"But, instead of embracing your idea"

"any ideas or suggestions will help." all those years before it was released and no suggestions to help how it could work !


Built-in plugin functionality may be the best way forward but it may not be and maybe that is why PG Music has chosen another direction. PG Music presently uses a bridge program to obtain functionality remotely. That is an undeniable fact.

You've presented your suggestion for built-in plugin functionality in multiple threads. You've continually improved the mock-ups that demonstrate your vision of how the functionality can work. The posts are out there for all to see.

Why not continue to offer suggestions about the current plugin? Numerous suggestions such as the track volume control and how the mute/solo buttons work have made a big difference in how the plugin operates. You, Jeff Pettit and Rob Helms have consistently been in the forefront as far as contributing error posts and suggestions regarding the plugin.
The Plugin looks professional now that is from all the work that went into bringing the interface up there with other VSTs but now it's the lame asss back end that needs a quantum leap also, you have a Ferrari with a vw engine. Adar programs the vst quickly Win/Mac but all the while waiting for the back end.
I can't see PG Music adopting built-in plugin functionality this year unless they make the switch when Band-in-a-Box for Mac is released. Maybe it's time to drop the idea for now and bring it up again when plugin version 6 is released.
drop it ? I just showed Sforzando playing any section of any wma instantly, is this helpful to PG ??? or should I have not posted it and dropped it ?? A lot of things in the VST now are accepted as standard useful things but it took a lot of explaining and up against opposition to get them implemented. When ideas come to me I post them. It's not easy with near zero encouraging to keep going. Over the years I have seen these ideas knocked then down the track they are implemented and the very ones that knocked it are using the feature and suggesting it to others. So I'm stuck between a rock and a hard place. It has worn me out doing all this so some encouragement does help
I just wish some cleaver users from the Reaper or other forums had Biab (Mac's gone he was into Ham radio and electronics) and they were here then I could ask them questions how best to do such n such. I tried to get evildragon as he is so up on it all and in a lot of forums, to beta test here but he said he was too busy with other beta testing. I should have another look for clever users, I'll tell them I'll buy them Biab myself if they come here ! (I think I'll get onto that right now!) I feel very much alone here but in other forums I'm asking so many clever other users for help.
Time is the vindicator, I have seen so many things come to pass happening right now that came to me years ago, but telling others at the time they thought you were a crazy conspiracy theorist. I remember the day Diana died in the car crash, they said on the radio "Diana is still alive and a man has died" and I said no that's not right Diana died a man is still alive. So I tend to trust what comes to me from inside rather than from what CNN tells me as it's usually the opposite. Conspiracy theories are turning out to be actually spoiler alerts. Let's see what happens in 2023 to things that people hold dear to their hearts.

it's the lame asss back end that needs a quantum leap also, you have a Ferrari with a vw engine.

drop it ? I just showed Sforzando playing any section of any wma instantly, is this helpful to PG ??? or should I have not posted it and dropped it ??

When ideas come to me I post them.

It's not easy with near zero encouraging to keep going.

I just wish some cleaver users from the Reaper or other forums had Biab (Mac's gone he was into Ham radio and electronics) and they were here then I could ask them questions how best to do such n such. I tried to get evildragon as he is so up on it all and in a lot of forums, to beta test here but he said he was too busy with other beta testing. I should have another look for clever users, I'll tell them I'll buy them Biab myself if they come here ! (I think I'll get onto that right now!)

Why not continue to offer suggestions about the current plugin?

No. I suggested you not repeat the same suggestion many times. Posting a suggestion once each year is enough.

Did you try the SFZ ?

Do you have any questions about Sforzando and wma/wav ?

Did you want to try and make any up for yourself ?

Do you want to learn how it works ?

Does Sforzando work with mono wma or just stereo ?

Do you want to give some encouragement for this to develop and be part of it ?

Do you want help with ways or is it the same as back in 2016 when I was asking for suggestions and help how the Plugin could work when I suggested bbw2 ?

Do you want me to forget it and just wait until PG finally do it and then you say "WOW PG this is great we didn't think you could do it" ?

Or do you want to play a part in helping it get there ? Did you try the SFZ YET ?

Is it all way too much over your head and it's easier to knock it than try to learn what's going on ?

I disagree. Audio producers learn new products everyday. Yes time is money. The time audio producers spend learning how to use the chord sheet to build a song arrangement is money they may not loose because they can't get the audio track their customer desires when the customer needs it.


Your assumption is audio producers will not try the main Band-in-a-Box program because of the look of the interface and difficulty to use. Of course I disagree.

I was speaking to a Music producer in Nashville an I mentioned BIAB, he replied "Myself, I find the user interface to BIAB one of the most confounding, and downright biggest UI messes ever, but that's just me. But... that is a great program in terms of what it can do and those real tracks they use now, sound more realistic than anything anyone has going. It really is fantastic." (he also has friends who have recorded for PG)

Well I don't think he is the only one, this is something we hear most often. I mentioned Realband as how many even know of it's existence ?

I think PG needs to vastly improve and promote RB as a decent DAW that can generate Real Tracks that can be used in this Industry and get away from the Auto Accompaniment of BIAB. It is great to use even 1 or 2 RTs in a session.

PG you need to remove all reminiscent of DOS and make it more solid and reliable so it can compete on the world stage with the other sleek DAWs, what other DAWs can do what RB can do ? not even Cubase Chord Track !

Most in this Industry use DAWs, it would be a no brainer to move to RB.

PG I know you will see the picture and get there eventually, but it just takes soooo long.

Thanks.

Imagination is more important than knowledge. For knowledge is limited, whereas imagination embraces the entire world, stimulating progress, giving birth to evolution. It is, strictly speaking, a real factor in scientific research ― Albert Einstein