PG Music Home Forums PG Music Product Forums Band-in-a-Box for Windows Is Band in a Box Too Old for Young People?

Band in a Box is a great music production software, for seniors. I have never seen any young musicians on YouTube ever using, or even talking about BiaB.

Just being curious, is BiaB a software suitable for users at the age of 40 and under?

Anyone knows who the dude is in the 2023 Boot Camp videos on YouTube? PG Music should really hire this dude to make more Boot Camp videos in the future, to attract the younger generations.

What makes Boot Camp videos more value-adding than other videos on YouTube? Humanization. In stead of a man or a woman reading the user manual and bore audience to death, the Boot Camp videos use real life examples/senarios to teach how to make real music with relevant and useful features, and ignore useless and redundant features.

Anyway, I hope in the future, more and more young people would become passionate and enthusiastic with Band in a Box, just as they do now with Toontrack, Native Instruments, Image-Line, iZoptope, Ujam, and many other big names.

MAKE USER YOUNG AGAIN - BIAB 2024

Great suggestion, I too have thought this and I'm only 72 years old

I wrote some EDM styles, https://www.nortonmusic.com/style24.html and it is one of the lowest selling style e-disks I have in my catalog.

Some of the people who purchased it tell me they love and asked me to do more. But I guess just not enough younger people know about BiaB.

And that's a pity, because BiaB is a good tool to create that kind of music. A user can make his/her own grooves without having to sample other people's recordings, and thus avoid paying copyright royalties.

Insights and incites by Notes ♫

Imagine if everyone in this forum could share a little bit of their BiaB knowledge with their grandchildren.

In 2030, BiaB will still be alive and isn't going down like IBM or Kodak.

We the people need to take actions NOW to make BiaB great again!!!

BIAB LIVES MATTER!!!

The guy on the bootcamp series talks like he's an employee of PG Music.

That's why I said those videos are good actually creating up the song using all the wonderful implemented functions directly in Biab, they are not like the other videos reading from a manual seen here.

@MusicVillain please stay here and keep posting, don't go ! it needs knowledgeable users here to bring it into the modern age.

Interesting topic, especially because it relates to the future development of Biab.
I think I am a bit ambivalent on this one.

On the one hand, I feel that Biab can be seen as a vehicle to promote and "defend" traditional styles of music that are clearly losing out, among the younger generations, to the new electronic/loop-based/no-melody kinds of music (I dont even know how to define these "genres", I'm too old I guess, but I hope you know what I mean). Nothing against these, the world evolves and I'm fine with that, actually. But I do worry that when new things come out, older things are too quickly forgotten or dismissed by the younger. So, in this view, I welcome the idea that BIAB still stubbornly sticks with jazz, folk, country, rock etc. Love it. And, even more so, I absolutely love BIAB as something that represents and spreads the idea that music is ACTUALLY played by real people (with Real Tracks), human beings with musical skills and taste, and it's not just the assembly of loops made on a laptop by someone in a bedroom with no music knowledge or taste whatsoever. So, there's that. Long live BIAB in its current form, for these reasons. On the other hand ...

... on the other hand, though, I do see the limitations. I'd certainly love to see BIAB grow significantly beyond its niche, and acquire more customers, and more musical diversity, and attract younger people. And that's because growth means more resources, more and better capabilities, better software, more inspiration, more possibilities to innovate through cross-fertilization of very different genres etc etc etc. And, in order to do that, I guess BIAB should try to incorporate features that are attractive to the younger generations, but without "losing its soul", so to speak. And by "features" I'm not just talking about more modern genres for its styles and tracks, but also (maybe) better integration with loop-based music production styles and philosophy, more modern interface etc etc. Easier said than done, I know.

As I said, I'm ambivalent. I don't know what to wish. I'm sure that at PG Music they have a clear strategic vision about this issue. Personally, I like BIAB because every year it gives me more of the same kind of musical stuff that I truly love. I'm the perfect target customer, I guess. But "more of the same" is a very risky strategy in the long term.

Long live BIAB, regardless.

Yes, it's the very thing that will keep all the styles of music alive.
If the software is modern it will attract younger users, this way they can be introduced to other styles.

Perhaps PGM would do well to make a major update to their UI; it really does look like refugee from 1994.



I'm going to have to defend loop based music creation here. Even though I have no use for loops myself, I understand that it can be done well and that it actually does take some talent and discernment to do so.

I find one of the unique qualities of Band-in-a-Box is it allows me to explore the many audio sources used in production.

Band-in-a-Box works with user recorded audio, MIDI, virtual instruments, audio loops and insert effects in addition to PG Music's RealTracks. It doesn't care about the audio source which allows me to concentrate on the song structure.

Tom Cruise, Top Gun Maverick, the theme song is "Hold My Hand", by LadyGaga.

It's a traditional four chords rock song, with a tiny bit of EDM elements blended into heavily distorted guitar.

Guess what? Huge success! Both young people and old people love this song. There are hundreds of people doing covers on YouTube.

On the other hand, BiaB is alienating young generation, not because of the genres, but due to it's Windows XP era interface.

There are over 300 commands in BiaB, but only less than 30 of them are truly useful. The remaining 270 are just there to intimidate and confuse the users.

For example, in the Melodiest dialogue box: "Change Song Chords" option, "Change Song Style" option, are you kidding me? I want you to help me generate a melody to fit my song, but you put these options there to screw my song. Why you hate me so much?

HIDE THESE GOD AWEFUL USELESS COMMANDS & OPTIONS, SO ONLY THE USEFUL ONES CAN BE SEEN!!!

Good point, but bad example. Those two obtions are necessary to identify a melody which fits your chords, even if you don't have chords. I do admit that the process will be iterative as you try to figure the logic, but it is logical once you get it done. Like much of BIAB. I just spent a moring on a project to identify a melody, and I think I got some good stuff...

I think the BBPlugin/BBPlugin Standalone is where the focus needs to be for new younger users.
This way you can get away from the old Delphi code limitations and bloat.

Just a quick clarification. I agree with Byron. Any kind of music may involve talent and discernment (or the opposite), including loop-based music. That was not my point. My point is:
- younger generations use loop-based production a lot. Not my thing, not my taste, but that's irrelevant. However, should BIAB accomodate loop-based production in a better, more straightforward, modern way, in order to attract the young a bit more? (and yes, @JimFogle I know it's already possible, and I know that with BIAB you can use any source, including loops, but the implementation is clearly way too convoluted and clearly not at the center of the focus of BIAB's operations and interface. Can you imagine a 18 years old choosing BIAB to create looped-based songs? There are far better alternatives, "better" from the 18 years old point of view). That is the question I was wondering about. And I dont have an answer, obviously.
- the idea of integrating BIAB's core strenghts (real tracks, chord based production, "traditional" genres etc etc) with more loop-friendly / young-friendly operations and interface, might help introducing the "loop-only" younger generation to BIAB and, more importantly, to traditional styles, genres, ways of music production. That would be a good thing, in my opinion. Not for me, but generally a good thing.
Nothing against loops, per se. In fact, I also use them (although quite rarely).

nobody is going to create decent contemporary EDM songs using BIAB.

Programs like Reason and Ableton are popular for modern pop and dance genres for a reason, with their huge sample libraries, loops, built-in library of cutting-edge synths, and effects, powerful routing and automation and fast efficient workflow.

BIAB is not the right tool for the job. Stuff like hip-hop, trap are not even chord based.

Still love BIAB though, but it's best suited for generic sounding jazz, pop, blues & country imho. As long as young people enjoy playing those genres, then I'm sure there will be new adopters and BIAB has a bright future.

As we discussed in another thread, the GUI and workflow will be a turn off, for people coming from other well-established DAWs.

Kona.

i see where your coming from, and this has been discussed before re EDM/modern genres etc. but my question is do people really explore biab and realband (rb) properly ?
cos in recent years more 'modern' styles have been added.

the reason i mention this is there are more than a few styles that could be used or adapted for edm etc.

ive just finished a 'kinda rap' song useing a biab style.
i'll post it in the showcase so people can tell me if i'm out to lunch or not.

lets not forget rb has 48 traks one can anything with. ive even done special effects with it.
in rb you can do a slew of stuff. depends how one approaches the task at hand.

your correct some other products have lots of big sample libs...but there are nearly free/free sample libs out there and loads of virtual instruments...

eg computer music mag from the uk which offers something like 80 free plug ins n' vi's//synths etc etc.
(just explore it on you tube sometime. some very impressive stuff in cm's vault.)

one problem ive found if i'm confronted with huge sample libs//vi's is i have sooo many sample options..it takes up ages to come to a decision as to which ones to use in a song. thus 'paralysis by analysis' often occurs.
thus i limit my choices to the pg styles//sound creation tools and augmented by cm mag sounds.

but maybe i'm useless at modern genres (as at my core i'm a rocker ). but we will see when i load up the song on in showcase...and get egg on my face...lol.
its an experimental song cos so many people say biab cant do modern stuff.

in conclusion all i'm saying is the tools are there in pg products to do anything one wishes. its just how one chooses to use them. the key is to delve deeply.


happiness.

om

+1

Perhaps for ALL users. I wish it worked better in the Mac World with Logic Pro. I'd love to be able to use it reliably in my workflow.

Actually, I think BiaB is a good tool for EDM.

I've written some EDM styles and you can make them repeat and repeat just like a recorded loop. Then you can use the B section as a variation of that loop. With Multi styles, you can get a couple more variations, if you want.

What could be easier. Enter your chord, or few chords, choose an EDM style, and set the repeat function. And you're done.

But since my EDM style disk is not one of my top-selling disks, even though some who have bought it tell me it's great, I guess there aren't many EDM creators using BiaB.

Perhaps if they knew about this, it's change.


Insoights and incites by Notes ♫

Let's not forget, RealTracks ARE audio loops. BIAB is perfectly capable of making contemporary music. This is after all making music with computers. As with any musical instrument, the musician is more important than the tool.
Here is an example done some time ago demonstrating the versatility of a BIAB style using both midi and RealTrack Loops:

https://soundcloud.com/cxp-2/style-versatility-demo

However, the discussions in the forum and the typical showcase entry would send twenty-somethings running in the opposite direction no matter the UI.

CXP.

well done with your song mate.

perhaps you might post the link to your song in the showcase with maybe a title like 'example of edm using biab' ?
then if the edm topic comes up again the rest of us can point to your example ?

have a great 2023.

om

> For example, in the Melodiest dialogue box: "Change Song Chords" option, "Change Song Style" option, are you kidding me? I want you to help me generate a melody to fit my song, but you put these options there to screw my song. Why you hate me so much? HIDE THESE GOD AWEFUL USELESS COMMANDS & OPTIONS, SO ONLY THE USEFUL ONES CAN BE SEEN!!!

Music Villain,

Band-in-a-Box doesn’t take a “one-size-fits-all” approach.

For example, the Melodist can
1. create a melody to your existing chords,
2. Or also create both chords and melody.
A simple checkbox determines if you get option 1 or 2.

So you only want the option 1, and find it upsetting that we even have option 2 available, by your comment above.

Problem is many people like option 2, and use it to create entire songs, with chord and Melodies (royalty free). They’ve sent us examples which have been used as background music in many situations, including background to a CNN segment, children’s TV show or a background music YouTube video. I just heard one the other day where a famous comedian uses melodist generated pieces as background for his voice overs introducing old clips of his.

If we did as you’ve asked, and removed the option to generate both chords and melodies, people would complain. So we don’t plan to do that.

Muso,

This is an old issue. A link to this track was provided back in 2017:

https://www.pgmusic.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Main=64551&Number=434490#Post434490

> Let's not forget, RealTracks ARE audio loops. BIAB is perfectly capable of making contemporary music. This is after all making music with computers. As with any musical instrument, the musician is more important than the tool.
< well done with your song mate.

Yes, well done and thanks for the post. I’ve started a new thread here, as others might be interested in the range of contemporary music that can be generated with BiaB.

I’ll start a new thread for this post, as it’s a different topic from the original
Please reply in this thread https://www.pgmusic.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=753528#Post753528

just to clear something up, edm music is not created just by repeating loops. it consists of build ups, drops, incredible sound design, intricate automation of synthesizer and effects parameters and manipulation of samples such as time-stretching and chopping.

don't underestimate the genre and think that producers are just looping a sample, this is some of the most complex music to create and you need the right tools.

i've heard attempts to make modern dance music with BIAB and they sound quite laughable, similar to how arranger keyboards sound when trying to do edm, house, hip-hop, dubstep, trap etc.

I wonder though, how much of that relates to BiaB itself and how much relates to someone expecting BiaB to do the whole job.

Konaboy,
The muscle of the BIAB is Acoustic and Electric (don't confuse with electronic) instruments, played by real musicians. It is not designed specifically for production of synth based EDM music, but made a very good progress where you can use these (acoustic & electric) RTs / Midi content with other, less represented genres (such as EDM) in your composition with introduction of Chord Track(s) and other tools like partial regeneration, where you can get real played phrases pretty tight to adhere to your ideas.

Every schoolboy and schoolgirl can make a "beat" on their phone. But what software can add real acoustic & electric instruments to their "composition" that will actually follow their ideas, not push the key these loops/phrases were written in? There are only a couple of titles that I know of and overall they are miles away from BIAB in that respect.

Many users utilize BIAB to generate a specific track(s) (guitar, sax, piano, etc), but do their main work in DAW.
BIAB is not a silver bullet for "all genres" but it has a very strong library of content in Pop/Rock/Jazz/Folk/Country genres.

Personally I feel that many synth/sample based software workstations such as Komplete, Halion, Falcon, Groove Agent and whole bunch of others have in a way similar content. BIAB is very different and I like that contrast. It's great to have different choices.

Kona.

re edm can be superb...no argument.

but having been offered inside looks on occasion at the music biz over the years i would suggest many (not all) superb productions resulted from a 'team effort'
ie..a team of production people behind the artist.

yes a lone artist can produce a superb result, but it often requires a huge amount of work and many many hours of effort. its very demanding on a lone artist with no pro help/assistance.

re 'laughable'. i see where your coming from but i would respectfully suggest that a team of 'pros' useing biab would probably show a superb edm result with biab/rb.
remembering that there is nothing to stop people useing sophisticated vl's//plug ins.
my argument being that if biab/rb were the only tools available on the market...a team of 'pros' will produce that superb edm genre or trap or whatever result.

i just do nutty songs for enjoyment...and have no illusions of my limitations. but imho its all how the artist(s) use a tool.
if you gave me a blank canvas i would produce a terrible painting cos i cant paint...but in the right hands the same brushes and pallate would produce a major masterpiece.

happiness/great 2023.

om

To do modern stuff Biab need to be easy to drag n drop samples/loops into the track anywhere and be able to set the key/chord tempo and set it to repeat for so many bars all non destructively the Loop dialog is so old and limited.
Else you need to sync Biab to FL Studio or Reaper:

And this is something BiaB can do. Especially if coupled with RealBand or a sequencer/DAW.

I also think that any composition of any style of music can be made better after exporting it to a sequencer or DAW and tinkering with it a bit.

Insights and incites by Notes ♫

One question I've had in this discussion is : If the young musicians are not on this forum and using BiaB, where are they hanging out?
What forum that allows them to describe, post and share music are they using?

I'd like to see examples of what they produce even if it's rap or loops (which is not my thing).
I'm interested in observing how they operate.

Think I could pass for one?

For sure, fam! Picture this: I’m in my cozy bedroom studio, surrounded by neon lights and vintage synths. My vibe is on point, and I’m cookin’ up beats like a boss. I hit that MPC pad, and the bassline drops—straight fuego! My laptop screen’s lit with Ableton Live, and I’m tweakin’ those knobs like a mad scientist. The melody hits, and I’m in the zone, lost in the sauce. It’s all about those lush chords, crispy hi-hats, and that 808 kick punchin’ through. I layer vocals, add some autotune swag, and boom—my track’s fire emoji! The speakers blast, and I’m vibin’ hard. Music’s my flex man. Trap, lo-fi, or chillwave, I’m here to create the magic. And when that drop hits, there's nothin like it. So, yeah, making music—it’s my whole mood, ya feel me?

First on the list - kill RB (sorry old guys).
Most new users are MAC people. They don’t care about RealBand

Logic, Reaper, Abelton, Pro tools- the environments serious music software needs live in.

Quit trying to sell a DAW. If it works so well with BIAB make those features work in the plug in for mainstream DAW’s.

IMO BIAB’s growth future is as a plugin to the above environments.

Don’t rebuild the standalone UI. That’ll take million$. Instead Phase it out by attrition.
As suggested by others. Fix the broken stuff, simplify(not rebuild) the UI.

Spend dollars on the future, not the past.
Real Tracks, Super MIDI, Styles . Those things are what makes BIAB great.

Most computer users use a phone most of the time. DAW’s are available for tablets now. Don’t miss the coming convergence of software to the mobile OS platforms.
Not sure what the stratedgerie to do this is, but recognize in a few years phones will have all the cpu/gpu/ram they need to run this stuff.

some comments.

1...irrespective of age or music genre whether a complex song arrangement or loops ...songs are work...lots of dedication and work.
but maybe im wrong once ai gets further in development.
old yorkshire saying is 'cream and junk flows to the top'.
eg the music biz...thus sadly lots of very talented people never
are recognised...there being so many new songs issued each year.
2...last time i looked still win has over 70 percent market share.
haveing said that i dont want people to think im ultra pro win.
but i invite anyone.here to go on gearspace.com where thousands of studios large and small hang out...and start a thread 'why does anyone here use win over other OSs and watch the fur fly...lol.
ive even seen many comments from peop!e who moved back to win or one or more reasons....start a thread on GS once sgain...
' why did you move back to win'...and watch the fur fly again...lol.
from my hopefully unbiased opinon i feel one key aspect of why win still has a big. market share is developers of music apps/products have got used to win quirks i suspect...also to be fair there have been improvements made to win OS i suspect because some people working on the win os have studios themselves from what ive heard.
3...as to rb and its detractors all i can say is i often wonder how much some people have delved into it....as a reaper user i find rb highly usefull.
imho i dont think it will go away...but features slowly added over time whereas i would like to see a more aggressive development strategy taken with it. just the new comping feature has helped somewhat for me. finally let me say in an attempt to be unbiased i tried another popular daw recently and soon realised i would loose various rb features...imho with a few added upgrades..if done right...rb could be the cream at the top of the daw milk bottle.
4...im not a fan of the plugin strategy based on my history of working in industry trying to interface one companies systems to systems controlled by third parties which we had no control over. from a user perspective it all seems
an easy task 'i want pg plugin to interface with my fav daw '...
but the devils in the details....i invite anyone to take c++ programming courses and try it yourself...THEN youll have a new found respect for what pg are trying to do to keep its users who want such happy...particularly as bb is unique in the world of music apps. as i said...not trivial particularly as the host daw might change at any point.
5..re edm/rap/trap etc etc one criticism i have of pg is i think a few vids would
be very usefull in attracting young users...and show them the power of ptpro/rb/bb. years back i used ptpro to do some rap songs for some young clients who were amazed. im a rocker at heart ...but i keep an open mind re other genres. imho pg provides all the tools to enable one to do any genre one wants. particularly as there is sooo much content including synths and everything else under the sun.


just my 2 bucks or quids worth..lol....fwiw.

happiness.

om 🇨🇦 🇬🇧

please don't kill RB. its an essential part of my work flow. trying to turn BIAB into a DAW is the reason it's so complicated (sorry Jim and Charlie Fogle!) anyone with basic computer skills - cut/paste etc - can work RB after a little playing around and as I've said before BIAB and RB together do everything I want.

why do we think young musicians want Mac only programs? maybe if you are a Mac user you automatically get a reduced choice of programs so you steer clear of BIAB.

if the 'future' of BIAB is the plugin can we at least take into account the oldies like me who want the current BIAB/RB partnership to remain in place?

I upgrade every year but I don't really need new features - i just like the new RTs. those of us that use BIAB/RB to create backing tracks liek the mssicians chosen to record RTs. which musicians do 'young people' like?

Bearing in mind that Beyonce has gone country and Taylor Swift is breaking all sales records could BIAB create reasonable versions of their current recordings? I haven't tried but if the answer is yes then the music 'young people' like can be created with BIAB/RB. maybe they just don't know.............

Bob.

over the years whenever ive shown a new young budding songwriter or a group what bb/rb can do…
the result is every time, and i mean every time…total excitement when they realise they can to quote them..'you mean i can create songs with top session musicians who have even played on hit songs ? wow.'. …irrespective of their music genre.
thus i conclude lots of the new generations of song creators just arent aware of the potential with pg products.

I personally have done songs I think in nearly every music genre.
except bluegrass..so i decided to stretch myself and challenge myself recently with the bg genre even though at heart i'm a rocker.
it was a fun project doing the Banker Man bg song in my sig…and thankfully ive had more than a few likes…which makes me happy.

Thus from the above I feel a way needs to be found to 'get the word out' to the new generations of aspiring songwriters ... .an old tried and true marketing being to get the products into schools and universities. maybe by pg doing road trips…which is what many tech firms do plus trade shows and publications and offering discounts to educational institutions etc etc.

whether mac or pc...each OS has its positives and negatives imho.
a perusal of gearspace.com posts will show this as some users oscillate between both.


I think a lot of us existing users tend to take pg products for granted including me.

happiness.

om

I found it possible to make BIAB modern.
I often make the music modern by changing the drums.

I hope BIAB can have more good guitar RealTrack, and it is more convenient to find the guitar rhythm I need.

Bob, I agree with you that trying to turn Band-in-a-Box into a DAW tends to complicate the program.

I don't use RealBand too often as I've found it easier to stay in Band-in-a-Box to arrange my song projects.

The future is the BB Plugin.
I tried for years n years to make RealBand better but that was flogging a dead horse, there's no Mac version, and with Win Biab it's a saga spending 6 months programing it then another 6 months to program the same thing on Mac, this is a crazy thing to keep doing. You are only getting half the value you should be getting, you are paying for an extra 6 months that could be better served fixing bugs and adding new features.
Would you rather how it is now or have it at the same time for all OS's and Mobiles? :
Operating System Compatibility & Mobile devices
JUCE is a cross platform framework allowing a single codebase to compile to native applications and plug-ins with the same user experience on Windows, macOS, Linux, iOS and Android, across both desktop and mobile. Native applications can be launched in the iOS and Android device simulators to simplify testing and debugging, and can be packaged up for distribution within the mobile app stores. [/quote]

The BB Plugin can be a Plugin for any DAW, a Plugin Standalone and a Live Arranger and be crossplatform so it's compiled as a Win, Lin or Mac version at the same time.
Have I mentioned any of this before ?

Current way the Plugin works:




How the Plugin needs to works, self-contained crossplatform Plugin/Plugin Standalone:

Maybe another dead horse to flog? If they haven't got this right yet... I gave up on it a couple of versions ago.

BIAB has lots of warts but the RealTracks are mana from heaven! They are the reason I still send my money every December and plan to do so again this year.

"Maybe another dead horse to flog?"
LOL I think you could be right ! the development is way too slooooooooooooooooooooooow, there is not much importance given to it, it's just a novelty thing.
The only reason I keep trying is because of the RealTracks !

I know this is an old thread, but my two cents…

As a new “younger” user of the program (40) myself, I do appreciate the functionality of the program. Unfortunately I do find the user interface VERY dated, cumbersome and unintuitive. This would certainly be a turnoff for younger users who might look to pickup the program. Again, even the actual website to pick which version you want feels 10-15 years out of date in style and formatting. Both of these issues would help to put younger people off from even trying the program, which is a shame as I do find it useful and produces some good results.

As a “younger” person, who works in IT and did a music technology degree at university (when I was even younger! lol), I’d be happy to provide some constructive feedback and suggestions to the team if they so wished.

Adam.

(note i was in IT/tech also....too darn long...lol.)
there are many users that feel the same way as you...myself included.
however one problem for pg i think is the old IT managers problem...and ive seen it many times in industry whereby various users that have got used to an apps menus and 'look' are a tad resistant to change as they have got used to doing things a certain way.

once in industry i was put in charge of a massive legacy system (read old app with too many 'bolt ons')..and was fought tooth and nail by some members of the user base as to change.
in summary its a conundrum for a developer how to keep everybody happy.

what i do with young people getting into doing music production who dont like the 'look' of biab is to show them what RESULTS they can get with it.
i find less resistance that way....and they go 'WOWSER' !

frankly i dont know a good solution cos someone somewhere is gonna always get teed off is my experience.

btw if youve never done it...look at realband (rb).
same deal a tad 'quirky' on the surface but choc full of features and many unique ones i havent seen in any other daw haveing recently tested lots of
free right up to expensive music apps that often had lots of 'flash' i guess to attract new users...but in the end i end back with rb because it has various unique features.
(note ive been asking for more 'flash' in rb also but as you know as an IT person adding lots of 'flash' can also bloat up an app often...its a catch 22.)

happiness.

om

"user interface VERY dated, cumbersome and unintuitive"

"10-15 years out of date in style and formatting"

I had these exact same impressions 12 years ago when I first discovered BIAB (and still do). When I found this forum I was advised to listen to the songs by users in the showcase forum but that didn't sway me as most of those songs also sounded dated and uninteresting to me. Furthermore, the price to get the whole set is non-trivial; I've bought plenty of $50 tools and plugins that I didn't end up enjoying but $500-ish was a lot for me to take a chance on!

After a lot of back and forth I finally bought the software and have purchased every upgrade ever since. It is a phenomenal tool and produces incredible results! I just wish the powers that be would realize how badly the GUI and website need modernizing. I think time is running out for this tool as products like Toontrack's EZ stuff get better and more comprehensive. And also AI can now do a complete backing track almost as good as BIAB. I think BIAB will continue to do ok but will probably never reach it's full potential given it's old look and feel compared to the new tools coming online.

Adam,
You are right. A part of the problem is there is a bunch (a very small bunch) of people that systematically tries to stagnate progress. For example, some, if they can't adopt have threatened not to update. Other's, clinging to obsolete methods like there is no tomorrow, even when new options are much more intuitive and more flexible. Some don't update in years and expect red carpet service. Some find pleasure digging deep in menus and accept a workaround as a permanent solution. It is unfortunate if such views have impact on development. At times I think they do.

On the bright side, BIAB is amazing and unique software that lets you legally(!) have studio musicians from sitar to spoons and everything in between play on your tracks. If you are using 2024 version, regenerations are about 5-10 times faster than let's say 2023 and prior versions. I thought that would never be possible and it was a huge drawback for me as I do a lot of changes before finalizing, but PGM solved that.
Also, in 2024 MTP Library was introduced. This is non-modal. Meaning, you have full access to all PGM content in one place (Tracks, loops, MIDI, Styles, etc) to use on the fly without having to close window - or use a second monitor. "Bar settings" option which is also one of the most popular tools became non-modal.

Having said that. Content, function and speed are all there.
I believe to make the most of the software as far as Gui/workflow goes in a short run, tools, options and some often used menu items have to be logically combined and integrated into modular and dockable (tabbed) modern panels. Not flashy, but not mid 90s either. Similar as you would expect from music and graphics software. I believe this is very doable and would solve in part both, a lot of unneeded complexity and aesthetics.

Adam, I am curious, what single change to BIAB you think would make biggest overall impact?

Here it goes again, blaming the existing user base, especially the more experienced ones, for somehow holding back progress.

What is your evidence for this?

The users I know here who are active in testing and making suggestions, especially those out of the public eye, advocate regularly for changes of all sorts.

Matt.

whoa there matt...i'm a looong time user also.
and all for pg doing things that improve a product and make life easier for the user base. look at the many product suggestions ive made over the years includeing many this year re bb and rb because i would like to see pg continue to be successfull.

there was no intent on my part to demean long time users like yourself or anyone.

all i was trying to say is for some people in this world ...sometimes they are resistant to change.
its just good old 'human nature' at work.

when i wrote that i was thinking of say a user that bought into pg products lets say just a couple of years ago and has mastered all the various advanced features of bb and nooks and crannies.

with some people its understandeable if they sigh if they are being asked to do some things differently or re-learn something or modify their workflow.
me i love improvements.
eg the new tracks window in bb....and ive made several suggestions about it which, if implemented, i feel would make bb a market slayer matt.

i will repeat there was no intent on my part re current long time users. i was just commenting on how human nature can sometimes be from my life experiences.

ALSO i'm not singling out pg at all....its tough for any developer.
ive seen people running all sorts of non pg music apps sigh and be a bit resistant to change....just human nature....thats all i'm suggesting.

i wish you the best matt.

happiness.

om

As a user since the 1990s and now in my 70s, I posted about the new stylepicker not being as easy (for me!) to use as the old one and got a bit of a telling off for not taking the time to learn a new tool that actually didn't offer me too much in the way of useful improvement. But as an old and existing user i'll get used to it and i'm not holding up progress.

The BIAB GUI is so complicated because the functionality of BIAB has been tweaked so much to meet the demands of users who want BIAB to be a DAW not simply an auto accompaniment program. That is PG responding to users not ignoring them.

Giving BIAB so muc h in the way of new functions has meant a complicated and confusing interface and I understand why people don't easily get used to it.

But if you combine BIAB at its simplest with the extra functionality you get with RB (or well known DAWs like Reaper) generating a basic track is still quite easy.

as PG say in their blurb.........Band-in-a-Box® is so easy to use! Just type in the chords for any song using standard chord symbols (like C, Fm7, or C13b9), choose the style you'd like, and Band-in-a-Box® does the rest... Band-in-a-Box® automatically generates a complete professional-quality arrangement of piano, bass, drums, guitar, and strings or horns.

That is all you need to do before you transfer to a DAW - which is the work pattern a lot of us use.

BIAB only looks so cluttered and uninviting because PG has responded to its users who have asked for so many bolt on functions.

A real example of 'be careful what you ask for'. Do the 'newer looking' programs that 'young people' like actually do what BIAB does? It's an amazing program that is as complicated or as simple as you wish to make it.

I've also seen a lot of resistance to change in the forums during the many years I've been here, and I'm convinced that this attitude has had an undeniable influence on the development of the program.

This is partially true ... part of the art of evolving and advancing products, especially software, is in seeing the emerging patterns and forming the product into a cohesive and elegant whole. "Bolting on" seems to be PGM's way, but what one ends up with, by so doing, in a Heath-Robinson-esque construction.


(William Heath Robinson's drawings may be unfamiliar to some ... here's a link if wanted Heath Robinson's absurdly ingenious inventions )

Every day I try to learn at least one new thing, today it's Heath Robinson, somehow this guy's name never made it on my radar.
But I just love how this guy's brain worked.
At least he's getting his excersie on that crank

I was largely instrumental in getting the new User Interface <ctrl-T> implemented. There was even a 'capsize the boat' moment getting acceptance that it was a positive step forward. It's the only interface I use now, (but I think some others still use the older interface).

It's definitely out of our hands what the developers deliver, but be assured that there is a continuous stream of suggestions for improvements heading their way.

To justanoldmuso (om), I have overreacted since I was mistaken. You are not the user who uses three or perhaps four user names, who regularly made erroneous assertions about experienced users continually with no evidence.

My apologies to you.

I think he may be peculiarly British. Even in the UK, many people now won't know where the term "Heath Robinson" originated and, sadly in many ways, I think his work and humour is gradually being forgotten. I suspect here and now many people would look blank if they heard the name.

Robert Heinlein described three phases of a machine.
1 it works but with lots of clunkiness and inefficiencies
2 things like a flywheel are bolted on to smooth out the clunkiness
3 clunkiness engineered out and it woks as it should have done in the first place

personally i can see why PG 'bolt on' rather than totally re-engneer

Well, as of today, I can't be counted (anymore) as one who looks blank at the hearing of his name
I'm thinking his equivalent in the popular music domain might be Al Stewart . . . another big brain; and another Brit.

Btw, my theory of why so many top-shelf musicians were born in England is attributed to newspaper ink.
Think about it; what were fish and chips wrapped in?
So you budding musicians who want to be famous someday, wrap your food in newspaper

@Matt.

where i come from in the uk in my old stomping grounds there is a saying viz >>>> 'it takes a great man to issue an apology'.
you are such a man and great respect to you for that.
i wish you always the very best Matt..

i think frankly some companies would love to have the many dedicated users that pg has. bottom line we all want to see pg continue to be successfull in this crazy world.

@BassThumper.

i just told my wife about your 'chish and fips in newspaper' comment. we laughed like crazy.. her reply was 'that explains why you are a pita'...lol.

happiness.

om

I feel is more people focused on what BiaB does best and does well the GUI would be far less important. As far as younger folks today they may or may not pass it by. Who know we have no data to either confirm or deny. What we do know is the younger generation seems to be more visually driven and less likely to dig in. They tend to be more tech driven and want everything at their fingertips. I won't deny BiaB needs some more love but i for one would rather have the developers focus on fixing long time issues and completing current initiatives than fuss with making it "pretty"

I don't have any problem with the BiaB interface. I wouldn't have a problem with a redesign, as long as it doesn't affect the functionality. If it improves my workflow it's great, if it hinders it, it's a bad idea.

I really wonder if any young folks are hindered because the GUI looks so "old fashioned". After all Google looks pretty old fashioned to me, similar to the way it looked in the 20th century.

Some web pages and GUIs seem to be more about entertaining than function. This only slows down what I want to do there.

My website is pretty retro, too. But I had a teacher at a major uinversity ask if he could use my website as an example of what to do in his class. He liked the simpllicity and ease of navigation for so many products.

I suspect the real reasons why youngsters don't use BiaB are: (1) Creating music is not as important. Splice a loop or two over and over and rap on top is easy, if you have the ability to ryme (2) BiaB is not marketed to the youth market.

I don't think a modern interface would either help or hinder. But if it makes BiaB easier to use, I'm all for it.

Insights and incites by Notes ♫

The real problem about the GUI (It has been said many times here) is not how the program looks, but how confusing, counterintuitve and inconsistent it is for most users, except maybe for those who have been using it for many years in a daily basis (and are simply used to its many quirks) or for those who make a really basic use of the program (just load some chords, pick an style and that's all).

The aesthetic aspect of the user interface is the simplest and most banal part of user interface design, a simple aesthetic change would have no positive effect on the user experience. Only a thorough review and redesign of the functional aspects of the GUI would contribute to improve this aspect.

Cerio i do agree with you on that. Menu clean up, and redundancy removal is key. I see that some of that is already slowly happening. the non model menu changes are a big help. The tracks view and Multipicker was and is a significant upgrade i would love to see those features continue to grow and refine. I do believe that is exactly what Peter and crew intend. GUI can mean different things to different people. To some it is just graphic looks, to others it is more a workflow and tactile thing.

Boy, is that right. But I know a good one when I work with it; I imagine we all do, since things are just easier, more intuitive, and more productive.

Thank you..!

And that was very helpful in making the main screen look better and be more usable!!!

But once you click on something in the menu it can really get confusing again! The worst example is Options/Preferences where you are presented with an overwhelming dialog box with 26 settings and 30 buttons that each launch additional dialogs!

I can't prove it but I'm sure lots of folks, young and old, are turned off by the GUI! I know I was (and still am) back when I bought the software!

It really isn't about the old fashioned look, rather, about how complex and confusing it is. Google does one thing. Compare the BIAB Options/Preferences dialog with Google!

Functionality is king of course but there are MANY software products that have figured out how to make their GUI highly functional AND fun to use and that is a GOOD thing! I want to enjoy my time in front of the computer!