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I really don't understand the thought behind the OP's question.
Nobody is going to steal your songs.
Nobody is even going to listen to them.
They will be ignored as will the 3,000,000 other independant albums and EPs works published this year. You can put it on spotify and apple music, and pay someone to do that posting thing for you, and you might get between 100 and 1000 listens, who knows. You could spend some money on trying to get on playlists. You might be able to afford to buy 5000 listens. But your problems do not include any likelihood that Taylor Swift or someone big like her will steal your song and get a grammy with it.
W
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I really don't understand the thought behind the OP's question.
Nobody is going to steal your songs.
Nobody is even going to listen to them.
They will be ignored as will the 3,000,000 other independant albums and EPs works published this year. You can put it on spotify and apple music, and pay someone to do that posting thing for you, and you might get between 100 and 1000 listens, who knows. You could spend some money on trying to get on playlists. You might be able to afford to buy 5000 listens. But your problems do not include any likelihood that Taylor Swift or someone big like her will steal your song and get a grammy with it.
W That is a bleak outlook indeed. We are a couple of retirees who mostly hike/mountain bike and write/produce music strictly for fun. However part of that fun has been getting 25+ songs (with BiaB tracks) licensed via Songtrader -- several by large worldwide companies. Another part of that fun has been being getting on Spotify user playlists and being placed on a SC editorial playlist. Income from it is marginal and inconsequential. For us it simply nice to know that folks other than family and friends enjoy our productions.  No intent here to be braggadocio -- just pointing out that "Nobody is even going to listen to them" might be a bit of an overstatement. FWIW, grains of salt, etc., etc. Cheers J&B
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I should be able to get to that later this week. Problem is that very few of us remember anymore and all I found on Justia is single paragraph—and it got the decade wrong.
That a music attorney doesn’t know the difference between PA and SR is troubling, indeed. It’s on the form SR. There is—or used to be—an excellent FAQ in the LOC on this. I’ll see if I can find the right link.
Not today, however. Thanks Mike! I believe the lawyer knew the difference between PA and SR, I should have elaborated more on the question - I was trying to figure out the benefits of registering each song separately, 1 PA registration and 1 SR registration for each song. The reason being better licensing terms and such, in case a song does take off. I'm still trying to understand that part of the music business - whether registering each song twice (once as PA, once as SR) can prevent headache, or provide much benefit, down the line. You can use an SR to register a PA Published for a single song—there's a box to check. The Rights Holder(s) must be the same. It does not work in reverse. If the Rights Holder(s) are different for the song and the sound recording, separate forms must be filed. Unless… There are new rules for albums where the songs are released together that I've linked to already and they include artwork. Multiple Unpublished Works can be registered on the same form. Again, I've covered this already.
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I thought the same thing with creating a new product and patents. And here I am, 4 years in court later and down $150,000! Everyone said "no one will steal your idea, stop being paranoid, and just move forward".
Chances are: you're right. The songs will most likely cause ear pain and irritable bowel syndrome.
But I'm a believer in doing things right the first time. I'll be damned if I get jacked again for my hard work.
I don't care if chances are low. My intentions here are protecting my own work, in case it ever does go anywhere.
We need more artists to come out with their stories on how their songs were stolen. Because it happens a lot more than we hear about, it's just either those artists are silenced, or keep themselves silent out of embarrassment / pain / don't want to step on the wrong shoes and get blacklisted. I've heard a few anecdotes, but I'm confident @Mike Halloran has more stories.
I'm for the little guy protecting himself. Music Industry Corporate types want you to think it's a non-issue. If you're working hard at this, I saw it's worth paying a few bucks to protect yourself.
If doing it for fun... then sure, don't protect it. Depends on if you value your work or not.
At the end of the day it can be argued it's hard to prove infringement in the court of law and all that, but at least you give yourself a fighting chance. And prevent someone from blatantly ripping you off.
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Thanks for your insight Janice and Bud. And congrats on getting licensed and onto Spotify playlists! That is great to hear
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You can use an SR to register a PA Published for a single song—there's a box to check. The Rights Holder(s) must be the same. It does not work in reverse. If the Rights Holder(s) are different for the song and the sound recording, separate forms must be filed. Unless…
There are new rules for albums where the songs are released together that I've linked to already and they include artwork.
Multiple Unpublished Works can be registered on the same form. Again, I've covered this already. Thanks Mike. I think my cost saving strategy will be as follows: - GRUW (Group Registration of Unpublished Works) for 5-7 songs: $85 - Release each song as a single, one a month - After 4 months, release an EP with 5-7 songs - GRAM (Group Registration of an Album of Music) for those 5-7 songs, with album artwork: $65 x 2 (need to register Publishing (PA) and Master (SR) separately) The disadvantage is that 2 or 3 of those songs will be "unprotected" (3 month from publication rule), until the GRAM is registered. Though this is most likely a non-issue.
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The way I see it. If i spend several weeks grinding way at a song, even if it’s likely that it will never be an hit, after all that effort, for $45. I can fill out a copyright SR form online and upload the song. The entire process of filling out the form and uploading takes less than 20 minutes. From my perspective, it’s money well spent as long as I can afford it.
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Always, always, always copyright them. I own copyrights for the added protection. The copyright office has retired lawyers to help you if you are infringed upon. I asked the same question in the forum some time ago, couldn't get straight answers, so I contacted one of the free attorneys and they told me to copyright everything before releasing it.
Music is an expression that is a universal language, Never criticize anybody to harshly. They need time to grow but when they do, they do. Always be kind in what you say and do because the man upstairs is watching.
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One time I met Kenny Loggins at a procedure that my mom was at. He said always hang on to your publishing and never give anybody a controlling share of your publishing because that's where the money's at. He said, that a publisher will work with you on a percentage basis if that's what you want to do. Then, they can have a share of your publishing but never give them the Lion's Share of it because they're the ones that are going to make the money off of it.
Music is an expression that is a universal language, Never criticize anybody to harshly. They need time to grow but when they do, they do. Always be kind in what you say and do because the man upstairs is watching.
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Always, always, always copyright them. I own copyrights for the added protection. The copyright office has retired lawyers to help you if you are infringed upon. I asked the same question in the forum some time ago, couldn't get straight answers, so I contacted one of the free attorneys and they told me to copyright everything before releasing it. Everything is copyrighted once it is in tangible form. You are talking about registering with the LOC (in the US) and that is not the same thing as has been explained earlier in this thread. Before releasing it, Registering on form PA Published, one song per form, is the only way to protect works that have been released — that's how it works. The OP was asking about unpublished works and that question has been discussed a lot. One time I met Kenny Loggins at a procedure that my mom was at. He said always hang on to your publishing and never give anybody a controlling share of your publishing because that's where the money's at. He said, that a publisher will work with you on a percentage basis if that's what you want to do. Then, they can have a share of your publishing but never give them the Lion's Share of it because they're the ones that are going to make the money off of it. Excellent advice—if one is Kenny Loggins. Neil Diamond kept his publishing, too, and there were many articles over the decades on how much more money he could have made had he given up control and let someone else exploit those works to their fullest potential. My company just signed a new composer. I paid him a modest advance commensurate with the risk I am taking. There's no way we'll see a dime before Summer and, though we might see some money after Christmas. It's quite possible that the advance + the monies I paid when I commissioned the work 3 years ago is all he'll ever see. I am optimistic but it's still more than he will realize on his own. Monetizing his work is not a priority. I signed him to a non-exclusive deal—I publish the pieces I want but he is free to shop anything new. His performing schedule keeps him so busy that self-publishing is a non starter.
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One time I met Kenny Loggins at a procedure that my mom was at. He said always hang on to your publishing and never give anybody a controlling share of your publishing because that's where the money's at. He said, that a publisher will work with you on a percentage basis if that's what you want to do. Then, they can have a share of your publishing but never give them the Lion's Share of it because they're the ones that are going to make the money off of it. Regarding the "hold on to your publishing rights" thing....Theoretically absolutely yes you are leaving a lot of money on the table if you don't keep your publishing or at least a share of them. However, in the real world, only writers who have a string of successes (as in top 10 and number ones) are going to have the clout necessary to demand a share of the publishing. Those that are in this category have set up their own publishing companies which administer all or a portion of the publishing rights. Loggins is undoubtedly in that category. Writers such as myself, with a small amount of commercial material with publishers, are not. Our option is limited to "take the deal and sign it, or leave it".
You can find my music at: www.herbhartley.comAdd nothing that adds nothing to the music. You can make excuses or you can make progress but not both. The magic you are looking for is in the work you are avoiding.
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Nobody is going to steal your songs.
Nobody is even going to listen to them.
They will be ignored as will the 3,000,000 other independant albums and EPs works published this year. You can put it on spotify and apple music, and pay someone to do that posting thing for you, and you might get between 100 and 1000 listens, who knows. You could spend some money on trying to get on playlists. You might be able to afford to buy 5000 listens. But your problems do not include any likelihood that Taylor Swift or someone big like her will steal your song and get a grammy with it. Exactly right! Unless you are a pro in the music business actively building a career, paying to copyright your songs doesn't make much sense. But if you have the money and feel it is worth it then by all means go for it!
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Nobody is going to steal your songs.
Nobody is even going to listen to them.
They will be ignored as will the 3,000,000 other independant albums and EPs works published this year. You can put it on spotify and apple music, and pay someone to do that posting thing for you, and you might get between 100 and 1000 listens, who knows. You could spend some money on trying to get on playlists. You might be able to afford to buy 5000 listens. But your problems do not include any likelihood that Taylor Swift or someone big like her will steal your song and get a grammy with it. Exactly right! Unless you are a pro in the music business actively building a career, paying to copyright your songs doesn't make much sense. But if you have the money and feel it is worth it then by all means go for it! Since there are so many ways to make money in the music business without having hits, that nonsense is Exactly wrong! Unfortunately, hits are how you might make the big $$$$$$, Copyright registrations are important in the fights against takedown notices, Brazilian and Russian copyright trolls and their bots, others monetizing your YouTube and other channels, licensing synchronization, dramatic and many other revenue streams. When a work is released, you have no rights to be paid without that Form PA Published. If you file that form after someone has stolen from you or placed an ad on your YouTube channel, they get to keep all monies paid before the registration date on that certificate — SCOTUS ruled on that nearly 5 years ago.
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Professional grade sheet music is easily produced with NCH Crescendo. Musical notation, Chord Progressions, and lyrics. Author and Copyright date at the bottom. The tune is easily rendered as WAV and/or Video with a touch of a button. MS Paint is handy for editing the sheet. Once the work has been printed with the C + Date, it is a legal copyright, courtesy of the digital age. Now go ahead and tell me where I am all wet about this. Honor We Thy Kingdom
Last edited by edshaw; 02/02/24 02:55 AM.
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This has been a most illuminating thread. I read the whole thing. Thank you.
So I'm not trying to hijack the thread, but instead I want to approach the question from the other side -- that of the potential infringer.
Over the years, I've played in, and recorded several original bands. Most of the songs were written by bandmates. I have the recordings. They are usually the first recordings. I'm not trying to make money from releasing these songs, but I would like to make it possible for people to hear them, mainly friends and family.
I know that I own the rights to the recordings and production. Most of these songs were written in the 90s and are unpublished and unregistered works. Most have been performed live. I've lost touch with most of the songwriters. Spotify makes it easy for songwriters and publishers to collect their royalties for streams. I'd love to do that. Searches for copyrights on Google, easysong, and with the Harry Fox Agency turn up nothing for my recording. I have several questions.
(1) What risk am I taking if I publish these works on SoundCloud and post links on facebook?
(2) Should I copyright these recordings?
(3) Any other related issues I should think about?
So all songwriters here who recorded their unpublished works with bands, please copyright your works so it's easier for us amatuer producers to get our recordings out there without infringing.
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This has been a most illuminating thread. I read the whole thing. Thank you.
So I'm not trying to hijack the thread, but instead I want to approach the question from the other side -- that of the potential infringer.
Over the years, I've played in, and recorded several original bands. Most of the songs were written by bandmates. I have the recordings. They are usually the first recordings. I'm not trying to make money from releasing these songs, but I would like to make it possible for people to hear them, mainly friends and family.
I know that I own the rights to the recordings and production. Most of these songs were written in the 90s and are unpublished and unregistered works. Most have been performed live. I've lost touch with most of the songwriters. Spotify makes it easy for songwriters and publishers to collect their royalties for streams. I'd love to do that. Searches for copyrights on Google, easysong, and with the Harry Fox Agency turn up nothing for my recording. I have several questions.
(1) What risk am I taking if I publish these works on SoundCloud and post links on facebook?
(2) Should I copyright these recordings?
(3) Any other related issues I should think about?
… You are asking for legal advice. Although I spent years in a music industry legal department, I am not an attorney nor do I pretend to practice law. I and others have already laid out the pros and cons of Registering in this thread. Once again, whenever you make a song available to the Public in "a fixed or tangible form" (quoting the Copyright office), you are publishing and the only way to protect Published work is to register your songs and recordings correctly with the Library of Congress (LOC). Performing a song does not meet that definition, posting a recording does. I can't recommend the current edition of Donald Passman's book highly enough. Best $17 you will spend on your career. All You Need to Know About the Music Business: Eleventh Edition It gets into all of your questions. Unlike I, Don is a lawyer. It's the only book I know that is current on anything going on nowadays since it is only eight months behind (nothing on AI, the LOC ruling and the implications of the WGA strike, for example).
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Thanks for your reply and book suggestion. I'll check it out.
I know I have Master rights (recording and production). I know I can register the recordings with a form SR, but I'm okay releasing these to the public domain. My concern is for the original works that are most likely not registered. In some cases my recordings might be the only remaining record of the creations.
I don't represent the original creator and don't have a right to register their works. Plus this is very expensive because each songwriter has to be registered separately.
I don't know if I'm doing the songwriters a service or a disservice by publishing these recordings. A few of the recordings and songs are very good.
I realize this is a very different problem many songwriters face on this forum, but it's probably not a unique situation.
Any ideas?
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I know I have Master rights (recording and production). I know I can register the recordings with a form SR, but I'm okay releasing these to the public domain. My concern is for the original works that are most likely not registered. In some cases my recordings might be the only remaining record of the creations.
I don't represent the original creator and don't have a right to register their works. Plus this is very expensive because each songwriter has to be registered separately.
I don't know if I'm doing the songwriters a service or a disservice by publishing these recordings. A few of the recordings and songs are very good.
I realize this is a very different problem many songwriters face on this forum, but it's probably not a unique situation.
Any ideas? First off, the copyright form allows for multiple writers on a song/composition. So no, it's not necessary for each to file a copyright individually/separately. The really big question here, and you alluded to it when you said you didn't have a right to register their works, is, do you legally have the right to file the form in the first place? If you are not a writer of the song in some way, shape, or form, and only have the physical recordings, that put it into another area legally since you were not a writer, you really don't have a right to register the work as your own, which is what you are claiming with the copyright form filing. This opens the door to fraud and other things that lawyers love to litigate. Any copyright infringement claim could potentially be tossed out since you claimed to be a writer and weren't. If you ARE a contributing writer, and ONLY if you are a contributing writer, you can legally file the form and include the names of each of the other writers. NOW, you have the right to file the form and release the music. If you are really interesting in releasing the songs publicly, your bet bet is to contact the folks who actually are the writers and have a discussion with them and figure out a plan of action accordingly. It might be difficult to get up with them now but I see that as the best option..... or, you could simply release them since the possibility of the songs being an internet sensation or heard by a big superstar and picked up to become a double platinum hit are essentially less the 0%. But I'm not recommending that last way.... just that it is another, not exactly ideal, way to let a few friends hear the songs. Use a hosting service like Box and make it private and share the link to limited friends and locations.
You can find my music at: www.herbhartley.comAdd nothing that adds nothing to the music. You can make excuses or you can make progress but not both. The magic you are looking for is in the work you are avoiding.
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First off, the copyright form allows for multiple writers on a song/composition. So no, it's not necessary for each to file a copyright individually/separately. This is not my situation. I have multiple songs, each with a single individual writer. The copyright office clearly describes my situation, By contrast, if the copyright owner of the album does not own the copyright in the musical compositions (or vice versa), or if the compositions have been previously published, then each composition must be registered separately as an individual contribution to the collective work. I don't see a way to register multiple songs with different composers as a single work. I started reaching out to the songwriters. I don't want to negotiate a contract deal with the writers and then be in a position where I have to manage their royalties. I really wish they would get off their rears and register their works. Songtrust makes it very simple with a $100 fee per artist. Then add The Mechanical Licensing Collective to manage mechanical royalties at no cost, and a DSP for performance royalties, and the creator has all their bases covered. Seems easy enough, and I would do it if I had creator's rights. But what if they don't? I guess I can release my recordings and be forced to take them down when and if they show proof of registration. There's a slim chance of that. Sending a private link works for just a handful of people. The easier way to get a wider listen is to post a soundcloud link on facebook or such. Maybe routenote might accept them, but how will they find the composer if the work is unregistered? This might be undoable.
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Back to what I said.... you have a choice to make.
1. Spend money for the legal way where you'll not be in line to collect money and in fact no one will recoup a single dollar. (dumb plan)
2. Post them illegally and still make no money. (sketchy, risky, and highly debatable/unethical plan)
The reality of this is that you will make very little if any money from this. So spending hundreds of dollars makes absolutely no sense at all. I have well over 100 songs on publicly viewable sites. People can buy the download. I've never gotten a single check from that. My money comes from my songs that are playing on TV and in films. I'm not shopping for a private jet yet, but it does come in a check from BMI.
You can find my music at: www.herbhartley.comAdd nothing that adds nothing to the music. You can make excuses or you can make progress but not both. The magic you are looking for is in the work you are avoiding.
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Band-in-a-Box® 2024 French for Mac® is Here!
Band-in-a-Box® 2024 apporte plus de 50 fonctions nouvelles ainsi qu'une importante de contenus nouveaux à savoir : 222 RealTracks, des RealStyles nouveaux, des SuperTracks MIDI, des Etudes d'Instruments, des Prestations d'Artistes, des "Morceaux avec Choeurs", un Set 3 de Tracks Jouables, un Set 2 de RealDrums Jouables, deux nouveaux Sets de "RealDrums Stems", des Styles XPro PAK 6 & 7, des Xtra Styles PAK 17 & 18, et bien plus encore!
New! XPro Styles PAK 7 for Band-in-a-Box 2024 for Mac!
We've just released XPro Styles PAK 7 with 100 brand new RealStyles, plus 50 RealTracks and RealDrums that are sure to delight!
With XPro Styles PAK 7 you can expect 25 rock & pop, 25 jazz, and 25 country styles, as well as 25 of this year's wildcard genre: Celtic!
Here's a small sampling of what XPro Styles PAK 7 has to offer: energetic rock jigs, New Orleans funk, lilting jazz waltzes, fast Celtic punk, uptempo train beats, gritty grunge, intense jazz rock, groovy EDM, soulful R&B, soft singer-songwriter pop, country blues rock, and many more!
Special Pricing! Until September 30, 2024, all the XPro Styles PAKs 1 - 7 are on sale for only $29 ea (Reg. $49 ea)! Supercharge your Band-in-a-Box 2024® with XPro Styles PAK 7! Order now!
Learn more and listen to demos of XPro Styles PAKs.
Watch the XPro Styles PAK 7 Overview & Styles Demos video.
XPro Styles PAKs require Band-in-a-Box® 2024 or higher and are compatible with ANY package, including the Pro, MegaPAK, UltraPAK, UltraPAK+, and Audiophile Edition.
New! Xtra Styles PAK 18 for Band-in-a-Box 2024 for Mac!
Xtra Styles PAK 18 for Band-in-a-Box version 2024 is here with 200 brand new styles to take for a spin!
Along with 50 new styles each for the rock & pop, jazz, and country genres, we’ve put together a collection of styles using sounds from the SynthMaster plugin!
In this PAK you'll find: dubby reggae grooves, rootsy Americana, LA jazz pop, driving pop rock, mellow electronica, modern jazz fusion, spacey country ballads, Motown shuffles, energetic EDM, and plenty of synth heavy grooves! Xtra Style PAK 18 features these styles and many, many more!
Special Pricing! Until September 30, 2024, all the Xtra Styles PAKs 1 - 18 are on sale for only $29 ea (Reg. $49 ea)! Expand your Band-in-a-Box 2024® library with Xtra Styles PAK 18! Order now!
Learn more and listen to demos of the Xtra Styles PAK 18 here.
Watch the Xtra Styles PAK 18 Overview & Styles Demos video.
Note: The Xtra Styles require the UltraPAK, UltraPAK+, or Audiophile Edition of Band-in-a-Box®. (Xtra Styles PAK 18 requires the 2024 UltraPAK/UltraPAK+/Audiophile Edition. They will not work with the Pro or MegaPAK version because they need the RealTracks from the UltraPAK, UltraPAK+, or Audiophile Edition.
New! Xtra Styles PAK 18 for Band-in-a-Box 2024 for Windows!
Xtra Styles PAK 18 for Band-in-a-Box version 2024 is here with 200 brand new styles to take for a spin!
Along with 50 new styles each for the rock & pop, jazz, and country genres, we’ve put together a collection of styles using sounds from the SynthMaster plugin!
In this PAK you'll find: dubby reggae grooves, rootsy Americana, LA jazz pop, driving pop rock, mellow electronica, modern jazz fusion, spacey country ballads, Motown shuffles, energetic EDM, and plenty of synth heavy grooves! Xtra Style PAK 18 features these styles and many, many more!
Special Pricing! Until September 30, 2024, all the Xtra Styles PAKs 1 - 18 are on sale for only $29 ea (Reg. $49 ea)! Expand your Band-in-a-Box 2024® library with Xtra Styles PAK 18! Order now!
Learn more and listen to demos of the Xtra Styles PAK 18 here.
Watch the Xtra Styles PAK 18 Overview & Styles Demos video.
Note: The Xtra Styles require the UltraPAK, UltraPAK+, or Audiophile Edition of Band-in-a-Box®. (Xtra Styles PAK 18 requires the 2024 UltraPAK/UltraPAK+/Audiophile Edition. They will not work with the Pro or MegaPAK version because they need the RealTracks from the UltraPAK, UltraPAK+, or Audiophile Edition.
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