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The OP might benefit from this book: https://amzn.to/3xL451sThere’s an earlier version from 2019 much of which is still relevant: https://amzn.to/3ZkrjY3
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ALL.
SO this whole ip discussion has made me ponder some important aspects further which i'm wondering if other people are also pondering.
I would love to know people's opinions of the following which i hope are intelligent points for discussion.
1. the creative innocents out there.
by this i mean someone on this crazy planet creates a new song..maybe someone very poor in a poor country…how is that person EXPECTED to check the millions of songs created over the years to ensure he/she isnt infringeing somehow on someone else ??
bottom line how does this person do 'due diligence' given the above ??
2. the government/registration agencies.
point one has me asking how do the above bodies check that a new ip application isnt infringeing on someone elses ip when they are granting a successful application ?
once again, given the zillions of creative works previously created ??
see what i mean ?? Do they have oodles of supercomputers chedcking ? to assess the validity of the new application viz previous applications granted ?
reason i'm asking is even if one is granted protection via an application…couldnt someone else on the planet still pop up from somewhere and say…
'thats like my xyz song' ? particularly if the new creation made a small fortune ?
bottom line again how does the agency do 'due diligence' given the zillions of creative works out there ?? and to what degree does their granting of an application protect the applicant ?
3, the chords/notes issue.
viz songwriters specifically …there are only 12 notes in western music and only so many chords/inversions/extensions etc etc. THUS its pretty obvious that at some point there will be overlaps with previous works due to the world volume of previous creative works.
some big names often have said they were influenced by an earlier work…
eg a riff in an old piece of classical music. its obvious that there must be some degree of overlap tween artists song creations given that tech has allowed zillions of homes on the planet have project studios and computers right ??
Do people on these forums see what I mean re the above ?
AND is it worth it for a very poor person to spend lots of money they cant afford to protect their creative works IF STILL one can become embroiled in ip issues ?
poor people cant afford legal teams of course.
all opinions welcome.
happiness to all.
om
ps i just got delivery of biab/rb upak 2023...wowser.
this bloke is v happy.
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1. the creative innocents out there.
by this i mean someone on this crazy planet creates a new song..maybe someone very poor in a poor country…how is that person EXPECTED to check the millions of songs created over the years to ensure he/she isnt infringeing somehow on someone else ??
bottom line how does this person do 'due diligence' given the above ??
I believe this is more common in IP (patents). You can hire people to search within patents to check if you're infringing on anyone. Perhaps something similar exists in music. In general though, nobody cares until a song becomes big, and even if the original artist takes 100% of the royalties for that song, the publicity you get from the song will help the rest of your catalog, and you as an artist. If a dispute comes up, from what I hear the official(s) that listen to both songs, and subjectively determine whether there is an infringement or not. If Mike chimes in, I'm sure he can provide a better answer, mine might not be entirely correct.
2. the government/registration agencies.
'thats like my xyz song' ? particularly if the new creation made a small fortune ?
bottom line again how does the agency do 'due diligence' given the zillions of creative works out there ?? and to what degree does their granting of an application protect the applicant ?
3, the chords/notes issue.
viz songwriters specifically …there are only 12 notes in western music and only so many chords/inversions/extensions etc etc. THUS its pretty obvious that at some point there will be overlaps with previous works due to the world volume of previous creative works.
some big names often have said they were influenced by an earlier work…
eg a riff in an old piece of classical music. its obvious that there must be some degree of overlap tween artists song creations given that tech has allowed zillions of homes on the planet have project studios and computers right ??
I remember hearing about how some music industry guys wrote a program to create every imaginable melody, (ie. millions? billions?) and they copyrighted them and made them available for the public to use, like creative commons... something along those lines. Seems like it was kind of a gimmick, but I know someone did that. (found it: source) I have heard concerns, that with all the AI and algorithms we have these days, and huge artists selling their huge catalogs, that big corporations that own these catalogs will have bots that just copyright strike any song that remotely resembles a riff / melody line / etc within their catalog. This is only a theory, but sounds plausible and concerning.
Do people on these forums see what I mean re the above ?
AND is it worth it for a very poor person to spend lots of money they cant afford to protect their creative works IF STILL one can become embroiled in ip issues ?
poor people cant afford legal teams of course.
I'm also just trying to determine how to navigate this dilemma. Put out music, while offering myself enough protection, while at the same time not needlessly spending money. The least amount of protection is better than nothing, and shouldn't be too costly, I'm still trying to figure out what that is (I'm drafting a response to Mike's mention of 3rd party registration services regarding that). One idea I had the past few days is registering the copyrights in Mexico, since it's $15 a song vs. $45-$65 in the US. However, both the US and Mexican copyright office told me that you can only litigate within each respective country where you made your copyright. Makes me wonder whether labels copyright each song in various countries, or how they do it. I imagine almost no individual artist is copyrighting their song in any other country besides their own.
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To my knowledge, that has never been tested in a courtroom so we have no way of knowing.
Of course it's been tried. The best summary I can find is this one at Justia.com. How will courts handle a poor man's Copyright? In each of these instances, the courts sidestepped the issue, finding additional reasons to deny the claim but one did address the self-interest issue directly. Also note that some of the information in the opinions is no longer correct regarding filing and the need to do so. No doubt they were correct when the opinions were written but there were many changes to this between 2020–2022. The first example is someone who is quite obviously a fraudster and a forger while the second is an individual who is quite obviously mentally unstable and delusional. Hell, in the first case, Mr. Smith couldn't produce the alleged documents or any witnesses. Neither case really addressed the issue. Of the third, no relevant details are given. All in all, a rather shoddy analysis if you ask me. Still doesn't look like it has been tested. I still have my doubts as to the efficacy of the alleged "poor man's copyright." The US Copyright Office's opinion does not support the idea and appears to negate the claims of these third-party services as well. https://www.copyright.gov/help/faq/faq-general.html
Byron Dickens BIAB. CbB. Mixbus 32C 8 HP Envy. Intel core i7. 16GB RAM W10. Focusrite Scarlett 18i 20. Various instruments played with varying degrees of proficiency. https://soundcloud.com/athanorsoundlabs
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Thank you again @Mike Halloran for being so generous in sharing your knowledge, I really appreciate it. I've reread your posts various times, some references and called the US Copyright office a few times. I think I finally grasp how this all works, but still had some questions: 1. The LOC told me that once I register Unpublished Work(s), I don't have to re-register them once they are published, that they are still protected. Not sure why they told me that, as you mention in your first post that once the song is published, it needs to be re-registered as a Published Work (To have the right to litigate in a US court in case of infringement). Not sure why they made it seem like those legal rights roll over, if originally registered as Unpublished Works. (Also, Circular 34 states the following re: Group Registration of Unpublished Works: "A registration for a group of unpublished works or a group of unpublished photographs will remain in effect even if the works included in the group are subsequently published, either separately or together. You can seek another registration for the first published edition of a work in the group. However, it is entirely optional and not necessary to secure the statutory benefits of registration.") 2. If Published Works need to be registered with the US Copyright office to seek legal damages for infringement, how come the same is not required for Unpublished Works, and you can use 3rd party services instead of the US Copyright office (eg. Songuard)?
(eg. if you wanted to sell the publishing rights to your Composition, but not give up rights to the master?)
It depends. Multiple registrations, each covering different aspects of a recording, are quite common but nothing to worry about now. Should you get to that stage, your attorney should be involved—and yes, you will need one. Should you be so lucky, it could easily be a complex negotiation involving multiple attorneys. If dealing with a major label and you are not an established artist, keeping your Masters will not be an option. 3. This is probably my main goal - finding a sensible balance between protecting one's songs, and not spending thousands of dollars each year to copyright songs. So from what I'm gathering, the most reasonable yet prudent method is to first register songs as Unpublished Works with a 3rd party service. (if showing them around) Then once ready to release, re-register them as Published Works with the LOC. (Up to 20 if released at the same time on one album). My plan, however, is to release a single every 4-6 weeks, and an EP once or twice a year, with some of the previously released singles packaged together with a few new songs. Given that plan, I would have to: 1. Re-register each song (released as a single, previously registered as an Unpublished Work) as a Published Work, individually. ($45 for single author, same claimant, one work, not for hire. Form SR and PA together.) 2. Register the EP with new songs as a group of works published on an album of music - $65 (excluding the singles (Published Works) previously registered with the LOC). If 3 of the 5 songs on the EP have been previously published as singles, I can publish that EP on Spotify (and physically on a CD) as one cohesive album of 5 songs, however on my group of works copyright application for the EP, only the 2 previously unpublished songs will be registered, along with the previously unused album artwork. So the copyright for the EP will only have 2 songs (unreleased), but on Spotify and other places the EP will appear with 5 songs in it. 3. EP Album artwork can be registered under the group of works published. However, the artwork of each single needs to be registered separately as a different work? (Seems like it would be cost-prohibitive to copyright the album artwork if it needs to be done separately and individually for each single). Are those correct assumptions? I was under the impression I could register a group of 10 songs together as Published Works, once ready to publish, and set the "Published" date as whatever date I planned to release the song in the future. Or some variation letting me release songs separately, yet registering them together under one group publication as a group work. However there seems to be no such option, and wouldn't make sense given the definition of a Published and Unpublished work. (Although I could perhaps copyright all 5 songs on the EP together, and sell it as a CD on a public (yet hard to find website), and just follow my aforementioned release schedule on Spotify, other platforms, etc(?)).
Last edited by QuestionAsker; 02/25/23 02:07 PM.
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I would like to cast a ray of sunshine into this conversation. There has been a lot of good information posted now, so that folks can start their research projects ahead of the game, so to speak. There is much to learn and study but some good tips have been given. I would still recommend a talk with an IP lawyer in the music field. They are not that expensive. Some will read and comment on a publishing agreement for as little as $200. But they will all say: "Don't you dare come back to me crying after the fact if you already signed it and didn't ask me to read it, and just found out they own your house now." On the happy side, one music industry lawyer told me once, in almost these exact words: "My dream for you is that you do write a hit song and someone blatantly steals it and that it ends up on the radio and becomes a hit and makes someone 10 million dollars. And that you filed all the proper paperwork and also registered it with your PRO, and also have a time stamp on soundcloud and they have no legal paperwork or evidence whatsoever of having written the song before you did. "I pray and I dream that that will happen to you. "Because when I walk into court with you, it will be the best day of your life. "And mine." ** FROM ASCAPCan I register my music for copyright protection or get a bar code for my CD through ASCAP? ASCAP does not register music for the purpose of copyright protection; this is the responsibility of the writer(s) and publisher(s) of any given work. You can register your music for copyright protection through the Library of Congress which can be reached at 202-707-3000 or on the web at www.loc.gov. For information on bar codes, please visit www.discmakers.com.https://www.ascap.com/help/music-business-101/money-copyrighthttps://www.ascap.com/music-creatorshttps://www.legalzoom.com/articles/attention-songwriters-protect-your-valuable-assets-with-a-copyright
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That's a really good point. The OP doesn't need to be asking us for legal advice. He needs to be asking a lawyer.
Byron Dickens BIAB. CbB. Mixbus 32C 8 HP Envy. Intel core i7. 16GB RAM W10. Focusrite Scarlett 18i 20. Various instruments played with varying degrees of proficiency. https://soundcloud.com/athanorsoundlabs
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Always a big Yes on the latest from Donald Passman! There’s an earlier version from 2019 much of which is still relevant: Do not buy earlier versions of his book. Too much has changed, especially regarding Copyright registration and recent court decisions. There is a reason he updates every few years. I prefer the eBook versions since they can be searched.
BIAB 2024 Audiophile, 24Core/60CoreGPU Core M2 MacStudioUltra/8TB/192GB Sonoma, M1 MBAir, 2012 MBP
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1. The LOC told me that once I register Unpublished Work(s), I don't have to re-register them once they are published, that they are still protected. I didn’t hear your question and the LOC is not part of the Federal Court. If establishing Authorship and date of creation, that is correct. Otherwise, that advice couldn’t be more wrong. There must be a Published certificate before anyone can sue for damages. No exceptions. The US, UK and EU are the same in this regard. Example: Somebody wrone a song and filed PA Unpublished. Famous folk singer friend records it in the 1960s—song is uncredited but her record company pays the mechanicals. Famous English band releases their version song. 1978 Law takes effect. Fourteen years later, the writer’s daughter hears song at party and says, “I didn’t know you knew any (band name here). Writer wants credit and back royalties—attorney find out there’s no Published certificate and won’t take case till it is filed. Writer files; attorney sues. Band countersues for Copyright violation. Court tells both sides to settle—which they do—but rules that no monies are due before the date of that certificate, even though Famous folk singer’s recording is now over 20 years old and that record company knew who the writer was. Writer takes this to the Court of Chancery and is told that UK is the same as the US: no royalties due before the Published date. Estimates are that writer was out about $18M. Since this happened before the World Wide Web, almost no one is able to look this up but it was widely reported at the time. Anybody know the song, band, writer, folk singer? The band shouldn’t be too hard to guess.
BIAB 2024 Audiophile, 24Core/60CoreGPU Core M2 MacStudioUltra/8TB/192GB Sonoma, M1 MBAir, 2012 MBP
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I didn’t hear your question and the LOC is not part of the Federal Court.
If establishing Authorship and date of creation, that is correct.
Thank you Mike. Just got off the phone with Barry De Vorzon, I think earlier in the thread you recommended his Songuard service. I was interested in the 3rd party services, but from what Barry told me, they've never gone to court yet, and can't guarantee their registration would work (their FAQ says they can't guarantee it'll hold up in court). He assured me though his lawyers said it would work. Was wondering what you thought about the matter, as I'm definitely interested in using a 3rd party service for registering Unpublished songs, to save money.
Example: Somebody wrone a song and filed PA Unpublished. Writer takes this to the Court of Chancery and is told that UK is the same as the US: no royalties due before the Published date. Estimates are that writer was out about $18M.
Since this happened before the World Wide Web, almost no one is able to look this up but it was widely reported at the time. Anybody know the song, band, writer, folk singer? The band shouldn’t be too hard to guess.
Thanks for sharing the anecdote. Looking forward to finding out who it's about, and reading more about it. I would guess, but nothing rings a bell for me.
Last edited by QuestionAsker; 02/28/23 11:22 AM.
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You seem to be asking for legal advice. You really need to consult with an attorney who specializes in Copyright law.
Byron Dickens BIAB. CbB. Mixbus 32C 8 HP Envy. Intel core i7. 16GB RAM W10. Focusrite Scarlett 18i 20. Various instruments played with varying degrees of proficiency. https://soundcloud.com/athanorsoundlabs
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You seem to be asking for legal advice. You really need to consult with an attorney who specializes in Copyright law. Again, I recommend reading Don Passman's books referenced earlier. Of all the many books on the subject, many of which are quite good, it's the only one I know that has been published in 2019 (10th Edition) and will be updated this year (11th Edition 10/23/2023). Everything else is earlier and way out of date by now. Order the 10th ed. now and pre-order the 11th at the earlier link. My copy will hit my Kindle account on October 24. All You Need to Know About the Music Business: 10th Edition Devin Stone offers a 23 lesson course on Copyright issues at Nebula. I think I pay $30/yr to view all of their classes. Copyright for Fun and Profit Although both are attorneys, neither takes the place of consulting one if you have specific questions about your situation. Having a basic background will save you a lot of money since it will help you know what questions to ask. Barry's service, like all others, is based on the WGA who've been doing it for over 75 years now. My only opinion is that if you are quite prolific, a 3rd party service might be something to consider. If not, having multiple Unpublished registrations on one form is now inexpensive. As for the anecdote, I will tell all but not yet—I want to confirm a few dates if I can. It's the cautionary Tale from Hell.
BIAB 2024 Audiophile, 24Core/60CoreGPU Core M2 MacStudioUltra/8TB/192GB Sonoma, M1 MBAir, 2012 MBP
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You seem to be asking for legal advice. You really need to consult with an attorney who specializes in Copyright law. Again, I recommend reading Don Passman's books referenced earlier. Although both are attorneys, neither takes the place of consulting one if you have specific questions about your situation. Having a basic background will save you a lot of money since it will help you know what questions to ask. Barry's service, like all others, is based on the WGA who've been doing it for over 75 years now. My only opinion is that if you are quite prolific, a 3rd party service might be something to consider. If not, having multiple Unpublished registrations on one form is now inexpensive. Thanks Mike for all the resources, I have learned a ton from this thread and really appreciate it. Trying to ask for experiences or insight into the topic before consulting a lawyer. I can't really afford one, but will put a session on the credit card as an investment. You mentioned you were a consultant, may you please tell me or send me your rates? I would be glad to pay for a consultation regarding this issue 
Last edited by QuestionAsker; 03/01/23 04:50 AM.
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I would still recommend a talk with an IP lawyer in the music field. They are not that expensive. Some will read and comment on a publishing agreement for as little as $200.
Thanks David, I will do so in the near future. Any good one's you might recommend? You seem to be asking for legal advice. You really need to consult with an attorney who specializes in Copyright law. Not asking for legal advice. Having a conversation about copyright law. I think there are some interesting things within this thread that are not easy to figure out oneself online, and can really help people to understand copyright law, which is often very confusing. IMO this thread is a very helpful resource to a newbie like myself, I don't understand the sentiment of trying to shut down a topic that can help any small artist to understand how to protect their IP.
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Nobody is trying to shut anything down and you are asking for legal advice.
Byron Dickens BIAB. CbB. Mixbus 32C 8 HP Envy. Intel core i7. 16GB RAM W10. Focusrite Scarlett 18i 20. Various instruments played with varying degrees of proficiency. https://soundcloud.com/athanorsoundlabs
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Nobody is trying to shut anything down and you are asking for legal advice. Correct. And making things more complicated and stressful than they need be 
Last edited by Cyberic; 03/05/23 02:36 PM.
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An ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure. Have you guys been in an IP suit? It's not fun. Months and years of headache and thousands of $.
Either way, I think it was a good conversation, and I'm continuing my research in private. Thanks to everyone who chimed in. Not sure how it was stressful for anyone.
Last edited by QuestionAsker; 03/09/23 09:53 AM.
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Music is an expression that is a universal language, Never criticize anybody to harshly. They need time to grow but when they do, they do. Always be kind in what you say and do because the man upstairs is watching.
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Ray Parker Junior (Ghostbusters) said in a documentary "hell you know you got a hit when you get sued !! LOL" What he meant was that you can take almost any song and within the 7 notes probably come up with a similar song. As far as the question asked in this post I don't bother copyrighting my songs before showing it to producers. Hell, it's hard enough to get someone to listen to them. I definitely ain't worrying about someone stealing them. The songs I release are published through Tunecore Publishing and I am also a BMI member. If that's not enough protection then I'm out of luck. Plus if I wanted to go after someone for "stealing" my song I probably would need a load of cash in attorney's fees to even get close and if that person is connected to a major record company I'm pretty much out of luck. I would hope that if someone felt the need to "steal" my song they will come back to me for other songs and maybe I'd get some kind of deal. But as far as going the Government route and Copyrighting my songs I never bother.
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5 stars for that Henry, you really nailed it.
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Band-in-a-Box® 2024 French for Mac® is Here!
Band-in-a-Box® 2024 apporte plus de 50 fonctions nouvelles ainsi qu'une importante de contenus nouveaux à savoir : 222 RealTracks, des RealStyles nouveaux, des SuperTracks MIDI, des Etudes d'Instruments, des Prestations d'Artistes, des "Morceaux avec Choeurs", un Set 3 de Tracks Jouables, un Set 2 de RealDrums Jouables, deux nouveaux Sets de "RealDrums Stems", des Styles XPro PAK 6 & 7, des Xtra Styles PAK 17 & 18, et bien plus encore!
New! XPro Styles PAK 7 for Band-in-a-Box 2024 for Mac!
We've just released XPro Styles PAK 7 with 100 brand new RealStyles, plus 50 RealTracks and RealDrums that are sure to delight!
With XPro Styles PAK 7 you can expect 25 rock & pop, 25 jazz, and 25 country styles, as well as 25 of this year's wildcard genre: Celtic!
Here's a small sampling of what XPro Styles PAK 7 has to offer: energetic rock jigs, New Orleans funk, lilting jazz waltzes, fast Celtic punk, uptempo train beats, gritty grunge, intense jazz rock, groovy EDM, soulful R&B, soft singer-songwriter pop, country blues rock, and many more!
Special Pricing! Until September 30, 2024, all the XPro Styles PAKs 1 - 7 are on sale for only $29 ea (Reg. $49 ea)! Supercharge your Band-in-a-Box 2024® with XPro Styles PAK 7! Order now!
Learn more and listen to demos of XPro Styles PAKs.
Watch the XPro Styles PAK 7 Overview & Styles Demos video.
XPro Styles PAKs require Band-in-a-Box® 2024 or higher and are compatible with ANY package, including the Pro, MegaPAK, UltraPAK, UltraPAK+, and Audiophile Edition.
New! Xtra Styles PAK 18 for Band-in-a-Box 2024 for Mac!
Xtra Styles PAK 18 for Band-in-a-Box version 2024 is here with 200 brand new styles to take for a spin!
Along with 50 new styles each for the rock & pop, jazz, and country genres, we’ve put together a collection of styles using sounds from the SynthMaster plugin!
In this PAK you'll find: dubby reggae grooves, rootsy Americana, LA jazz pop, driving pop rock, mellow electronica, modern jazz fusion, spacey country ballads, Motown shuffles, energetic EDM, and plenty of synth heavy grooves! Xtra Style PAK 18 features these styles and many, many more!
Special Pricing! Until September 30, 2024, all the Xtra Styles PAKs 1 - 18 are on sale for only $29 ea (Reg. $49 ea)! Expand your Band-in-a-Box 2024® library with Xtra Styles PAK 18! Order now!
Learn more and listen to demos of the Xtra Styles PAK 18 here.
Watch the Xtra Styles PAK 18 Overview & Styles Demos video.
Note: The Xtra Styles require the UltraPAK, UltraPAK+, or Audiophile Edition of Band-in-a-Box®. (Xtra Styles PAK 18 requires the 2024 UltraPAK/UltraPAK+/Audiophile Edition. They will not work with the Pro or MegaPAK version because they need the RealTracks from the UltraPAK, UltraPAK+, or Audiophile Edition.
New! Xtra Styles PAK 18 for Band-in-a-Box 2024 for Windows!
Xtra Styles PAK 18 for Band-in-a-Box version 2024 is here with 200 brand new styles to take for a spin!
Along with 50 new styles each for the rock & pop, jazz, and country genres, we’ve put together a collection of styles using sounds from the SynthMaster plugin!
In this PAK you'll find: dubby reggae grooves, rootsy Americana, LA jazz pop, driving pop rock, mellow electronica, modern jazz fusion, spacey country ballads, Motown shuffles, energetic EDM, and plenty of synth heavy grooves! Xtra Style PAK 18 features these styles and many, many more!
Special Pricing! Until September 30, 2024, all the Xtra Styles PAKs 1 - 18 are on sale for only $29 ea (Reg. $49 ea)! Expand your Band-in-a-Box 2024® library with Xtra Styles PAK 18! Order now!
Learn more and listen to demos of the Xtra Styles PAK 18 here.
Watch the Xtra Styles PAK 18 Overview & Styles Demos video.
Note: The Xtra Styles require the UltraPAK, UltraPAK+, or Audiophile Edition of Band-in-a-Box®. (Xtra Styles PAK 18 requires the 2024 UltraPAK/UltraPAK+/Audiophile Edition. They will not work with the Pro or MegaPAK version because they need the RealTracks from the UltraPAK, UltraPAK+, or Audiophile Edition.
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