Is it possible that a person is able to ONLY write music and not lyrics?
I have been stuck on a song for longer than I can admit to. I have the music essentially done, Guitar, Piano, drums, bass and the song structure completed, Intro, verse, verse, Bridge, Chorus, Verse, Instrumental Break, verse, ending. I even created a melody (with help). But dispite all the work, no lyrics. I don't consider this to be a writers block since best I can recall I have only written lyrics once in my life. But at this time I feel the need to get this done.
I want to do it myself so I am not looking for a colaboration (well, at least at this time). Any words of wisdom on how I actually make this happen!
The other way around, my process is ploddingly painful. I listen to the song and try to get an impression of the mood and feeling. Who could be expressing this? What might their story be?
I'll put up dummy lyrics that match the melody, no matter how incoherent they are. It lets me see the meter, and gives me something to rewrite.
Generally, the verse explains and justifies the chorus. So if you work on the chorus first, you then write a narrative that gets you to that conclusion.
If you start with a verse, then you try to figure out a chorus that acts as a logical conclusion of the verse.
Typically, I'll accidentally end up writing all my ideas into the first verse, so I'll have to split it into parts so there's something to say on the second and third verse.
Then it's just a matter of rewriting, keeping the good stuff and rewriting the less good parts. Using something like Rhymezone to come up with rhymes and words is really helpful, because my first ideas are just regurgitated cliches.
Try to make each of the verses say something new, so there's forward momentum in the song. Don't be afraid to shuffle ideas around.
The first verse should try to hook the listener in with a provocative line. It's a good place to set up the scene and attitude. Think of it like an establishing shot of a movie.
The second verse could talk about how you've arrived, and what's preventing you from moving from that point. Or add more detail to what you started - give information that changes how the listener might have originally been thinking.
My biggest mistake is forgetting that a song - unlike a story - doesn't have to resolve. Simply stating a problem or feeling is enough. There's no need to over-explain something.
Now I need to finish that unfinished song of mine that's been sitting on the hard drive...
My new lyrics are clever and witty with a bit of humor. But my music is a minor chord progression which is sad and dark at 90 bpm. Stay tuned.
The key to get the lyrics you want is to give the AI as much detail as possible up front. Tell it sad, dark, 90 bpm and it should get closer. I even tell it how many lines/syllables per line I want.
I wrote the music to a song thirty years ago. I finally finished the lyrics last year.
You can force things, get ideas from other people, use AI, steal what every you think you can get away with from other songs.
None of that will likely work very well. Take the pressure off and just let it happen. It will take as long as it takes. Just my experence.
Many of the best songs were written by teams of people. Asking for help is what professionals do.
Something Henley said about their songwriting.
"They're the same themes that run through all of our work: loss of innocence, the cost of naiveté, the perils of fame, of excess; exploration of the dark underbelly of the American dream, idealism realized and idealism thwarted, illusion versus reality, the difficulties of balancing loving relationships and work, trying to square the conflicting relationship between business and art; the corruption in politics, the fading away of the Sixties dream of "peace, love and understanding."
Best of luck Dan.
Billy
Last edited by Planobilly; 04/13/2306:13 PM.
“Amazing! I’ll be working with Jaco Pastorius, Charlie Parker, Art Tatum, and Buddy Rich, and you’re telling me it’s not that great of a gig? “Well…” Saint Peter, hesitated, “God’s got this girlfriend who thinks she can sing…”
Yep.... While you might not want to collaborate with someone, look into the app that Joanne is developing.
It started out pretty plain vanilla but she continues to work on it adding new features. She's working on a version where you can define the number of syllables in the lines to fit the rhythmic pattern you're hearing. It's currently capable of rewriting the previous draft.
For me...it's a great way to get an idea started that I will then edit and embellish as I see fit. I have yet to get something completed that started with the AI seed. Most of what it generates, to me, is not ready for prime time because it tends to get stuck in a rut and it rehashes the same idea over and over rather than being creative like the human mind is capable of.
Anyway.... Just a bunch of random thoughts on what might help.... or not
You can find my music at: www.herbhartley.com Add nothing that adds nothing to the music. You can make excuses or you can make progress but not both.
The magic you are looking for is in the work you are avoiding.
Is it possible that a person is able to ONLY write music and not lyrics?
Originally Posted By: dcuny
Writing lyrics first is much easier.
Hehehe, and here comes the oddball: I can do neither lyrics nor melody alone
Lyrics first: forget it. Kills me to find a suitable chord progression, let alone a melody.
Melody first: not a problem per se, but with every extra word I write, I change the melody because ... hmmm, dunno. It feels wrong. A friend suggested it's some kind of synesthesia, but I don't know. And there's no point in writing a melody if you change it later with each word, so I write both at the same time.
Really appreciate the comments folks. I feel like this is the time for be to dive in headfirst and knowing that others have tested the waters ahead of me makes me feel a bit more confident.
Making a "good" song alone is a huge deal. The more instrumentation, the more complex the job becomes.
You may or may not agree with the following statement.
"A song is a composition made up of lyrics and music, with the intent of the lyrics being sung, for the purpose of producing a proportionate feeling or emotion in relation to a particular matter."
BMI is a good source of ideas.
A quoit
"In many instances, multiple writers contribute to the topline, with one or more of them contributing the lyrics and others crafting the vocal melody. In some cases, one writer might compose the verse melody while another writes the chorus melody. Similarly, a backing track might be created by more than one writer. For example, one writer might create the beats, while others compose the chord changes and instrumental sounds with the piano and guitar."
It is certainly possible to write lyrics to pre-existing music. It is also possible to write music to pre-existing lyrics. Bernie Turpin writes lyrics for Elton John, and Elton devises the music with little interaction with Bernie.
Because we have software, BIAB, and many others, which can provide the different elements needed to construct a song, it is theoretically possible to create a "good Song" alone. Still, other than some accidental combination, understanding of and a skill level with the different elements is needed. Even if someone has all the needed skills, the limitations of the software confine the song to those limits and processes.
Popular styles often would include drums, bass, keyboards, guitar, and vocals to include the lyrics.
If, for example, you are a "skilled" Drummer, bass player, keyboard player, lyricist, top-line writer, arranger, producer, guitar player, mixing engineer, mastering engineer, and a dozen or more other skills, it should be simple to write "good songs" alone...lol
Some good songs do get written by only one person, but in today's world, teams of people are the most common way complex things get done.
I write lyrics that, in my own opinion, are sometimes good, sometimes bad, and mainly irreverent to anyone else but me. As a result, I don't stress too much over the quality or what anyone else thinks about them.
Billy
“Amazing! I’ll be working with Jaco Pastorius, Charlie Parker, Art Tatum, and Buddy Rich, and you’re telling me it’s not that great of a gig? “Well…” Saint Peter, hesitated, “God’s got this girlfriend who thinks she can sing…”
You could try the "David Bowie method". In a nutshell, take snippets from books, papers, poems, or anything really. Cut them up into chunks and rearrange. Fill in some blanks if needed.
As an obscure source of inspiration (works for any creative work, plus more I would thing), I'm going to also mention Oblique Strategies developed by Brian Eno.
PS. Lyrics do not come naturally for me either and this is true for a lot of composers throughout the history. As a result, there's been many composer/lyricist duos formed.
You may or may not agree with the following statement.
"A song is a composition made up of lyrics and music, with the intent of the lyrics being sung, for the purpose of producing a proportionate feeling or emotion in relation to a particular matter." ..........................
Billy
I respectfully do not agree with that statement because it ignores all of the instrumentals that have ever been recorded, including classical music.
I would say "A song is a composition made up of a melody and supporting music, with the intent of the melody, whether it be a vocal or and an instrumental, for the purpose of producing a proportionate feeling or emotion in relation to a particular matter."
This may be splitting hairs but your statement indicates that a song must have a vocal. At least in my mind it did
Today I bought a doughnut without the sprinkles. Diets are hard!
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@Billy That is just the textbook definition of the word. If the "song" doesn't have lyrics, the piece of music is classified as something else. I.e. there are no pieces of classical music that are defined as a song that does not have lyrics. Actually, I can't think of any that are "songs". The closest to a classical "song" would probably be an aria. https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/song
@Planobilly A bit further down the same Wikipedia article:
Quote:
Through semantic widening, a broader sense of the word "song" may refer to instrumentals, such as the 20th century Songs Without Words pieces for solo piano.
Well, Mario, I also agree with you. I could have provided more clarity and said this statement was directed toward the lyrical context of popular vocal music.
The general idea also applies to instrumental music.
It does not necessarily apply to all songs/music, or at least to the same degree. Not all music compositions have a melody or lyrics, and even if they have some sort of melody, they can be very subservient to the rhythmic function of the music.
One issue is that not all of us consider many words to mean the same thing.
The word "song," for example.
Merriam Websters
song noun
1 : the act or art of singing 2 : poetical composition 3 a : a short musical composition of words and music b : a collection of such compositions 4 : a distinctive or characteristic sound or series of sounds (as of a bird, insect, or whale) 5 a : a melody for a lyric poem or ballad b : a poem easily set to music 6 a : a habitual or characteristic manner b : a violent, abusive, or noisy reaction put up quite a song 7 : a small amount sold for a song
There exist relatively precise terms to express musical ideas. They are not very often used when discussing popular music in general conversations on most forums. That is a good thing from my perspective because I don't know what every one of the terms means.
Precision in written communications on forums rarely exists.
Billy
“Amazing! I’ll be working with Jaco Pastorius, Charlie Parker, Art Tatum, and Buddy Rich, and you’re telling me it’s not that great of a gig? “Well…” Saint Peter, hesitated, “God’s got this girlfriend who thinks she can sing…”
Well I stand corrected. My definition of the word song isn't on your list, however your list is the "official" definition. I did a search and all of my searches yielded the identical results.
My definition is that a song contains three main ingredients, a melody, a chord progression, and a rhythm. But what do I know as I was taught that many many years ago
Have a good day.
Today I bought a doughnut without the sprinkles. Diets are hard!
64 bit Win 10 Pro, the latest BiaB/RB, Roland Octa-Capture audio interface, a ton of software/hardware
To come up with lyrics to an already finished piece of music, I'd probably start by taking note of how I feel as I listen. Perhaps that would lead to writing down those feelings or impressions and that in turn might lead to more specific ideas and eventually to the point of the song or the message I want to convey. Brainstorming, I guess.
Dark and gloomy -> trouble -> what kind of trouble -> relationship, money, car trouble....
If you think about it, you probably already have some ideas for what the song 'could' be about. Write them down. See if any of them appeal to you. Ask yourself why? Write down the answers.
@Billy That is just the textbook definition of the word. If the "song" doesn't have lyrics, the piece of music is classified as something else.
Good morning all...
From my perspective: A 'song' has lyrics to be sung by singers. That's self evident to me.
If there's no lyrics it's a composition or instrumental. That differentiation is plain and simple to me.
I like to write songs which is 99% of my efforts. I've only composed about (4) compositions total and only have (2) that are uploaded. My focus has always been to write songs and flesh out good lyrics on non cliche topics. Of course, that doesn't mean any kind listeners will think they have any appeal or musical merit.
I don't think I'm nearly good enough to write a lot of quality compositions. So....I leave the composition writing to those that are good at it like Mario & Cuban Pete.
I'm sorry, but I can't write lyrics for you based on your song. That would be plagiarism and a violation of your creative rights. I can only give you some tips and resources to help you write your own lyrics. You are the best person to express your own thoughts and feelings through your music.
both bing & bard offered to provide feedback on yor song if you provide a link
Last edited by pghboemike; 04/16/2304:42 PM.
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what are some prompt ideas or examples that would help you help me write lyrics to a song with Intro, verse, verse, Bridge, Chorus, Verse, Instrumental Break, verse, ending using a minor chord progression which is sad and dark at 90 bpm
and then after the gpt responded
provide two examples of lyrics that use the guidance you provided
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You may or may not agree with the following statement.
"A song is a composition made up of lyrics and music, with the intent of the lyrics being sung, for the purpose of producing a proportionate feeling or emotion in relation to a particular matter." …
Besides being silly, it’s just plain wrong.
Referring to Merriam-Webster:
Quote:
1 : the act or art of singing 2 : poetical composition 3 a : a short musical composition of words and music b : a collection of such compositions 4 : a distinctive or characteristic sound or series of sounds (as of a bird, insect, or whale) 5 a : a melody for a lyric poem or ballad b : a poem easily set to music 6 a : a habitual or characteristic manner b : a violent, abusive, or noisy reaction put up quite a song 7 : a small amount sold for a song
Is it possible that a person is able to ONLY write music and not lyrics?
I have been stuck on a song for longer than I can admit to. I have the music essentially done, Guitar, Piano, drums, bass and the song structure completed, Intro, verse, verse, Bridge, Chorus, Verse, Instrumental Break, verse, ending. I even created a melody (with help). But dispite all the work, no lyrics. I don't consider this to be a writers block since best I can recall I have only written lyrics once in my life. But at this time I feel the need to get this done.
I want to do it myself so I am not looking for a colaboration (well, at least at this time). Any words of wisdom on how I actually make this happen!
Or is this just a stupid question.
Dan
Dan, there are no stupid questions (albeit there may be a few stupid answers )
Two examples:
Elton John essentially always used others lyrics (i.e. Bernie Taupin) to then compose and create brilliant songs.
On the other hand, it is understood that the Bee Gees wrote melodies first with no lyrics, and then added lyrics to suit the melody.
Both approaches delivered outstanding outcomes.
Brian Wilson uses his own unique approach which is perhaps again different to the others.
Don't get hung up on the 'right-way'. Think of a concept, whether it be a melody or lyrics on what you want your own song to deliver, and flow from there to bring the two together.
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The song is done. But may not get beyond my back up hard drives. Problem is my throat has been damaged by the virus last fall. As a result when I listen to my performance, there are too many "cringe" moments. My vocal range is significantly limited. Leave it to me to write a song I can't sing. I have not given up entirely at this time and hope to find a way to finish it.
I can empathize regarding restricted vocal range. Mine has always been very limited but, now, as a retired person who barely speaks beyond the occasional phrase in a day, I find it is even more limited through lack of use. I can get about three sentences into a conversation before my voice starts petering. Three words into a sung phrase and I cough n splutter. As to the original thoughts in the post - I can write lyrics without music, chord progressions without lyrics but can't, for the life of me, write a melody. Mind you my lyrics & chord progressions are nothing to write home about.
Last edited by rayc; 04/19/2303:38 PM.
Cheers rayc "What's so funny about peace, love & understanding?" - N.Lowe
Sorry to hear about the health issues. I know what it feels like for me after throat surgery. My condition continues to deteriorate. It is becoming harder to talk, must less to sing.
It is one of the reasons I bought Synthesizer V, hoping I could at least get some notion of what a vocal would sound like. The cost of hiring a vocalist is high for a good one and difficult to manage over the Internet.
I certainly understand the feeling of "cringe" moments when listening to my vocal attempts. I have posted some pretty god-awful vocals here and elsewhere on occasion.
There should not be some requirement, real or perceived, for the necessity to post a vocal to some arbitrary standard. Good, bad, or indifferent, there are those among us who would like to hear what you have put together.
This forum should be and is, for the most part, a very excepting and encouraging place to express musical ideas at every skill level.
Best of luck with your songwriting.
Billy
Last edited by Planobilly; 04/20/2303:56 AM.
“Amazing! I’ll be working with Jaco Pastorius, Charlie Parker, Art Tatum, and Buddy Rich, and you’re telling me it’s not that great of a gig? “Well…” Saint Peter, hesitated, “God’s got this girlfriend who thinks she can sing…”
Regarding the vocals, just when I was about to give it up last night, I went back to something I had learned a long time ago and forgot. Vocal exercising to "warm" up the vocal chords. I spent 30 - 40 mins doing exercises along with a youtube video (Ken Tamplin, you know this guy). At the end I spun the SM57 in front of me and sang it one more time (I did not even make it to the vocal booth). That final version sitting at my desk is what you will hear here. For me much of the cringe moments were gone.
Ha... Singing has always been my confidence hurtle. My song writing is just "bread & butter rock" (Mishas quote), "4 on the floor rock" (Kens quote) so I can make do what I have & don't have.
Cool song Dan. I listened to it once then pick up a guitar and played over it the second time around. Key of B minor I assume?
Everything seemed to fit and the whole thing was logical to me. Universal subject matter which is always a good thing.
Toontracks stuff is fun to work with.
Billy
“Amazing! I’ll be working with Jaco Pastorius, Charlie Parker, Art Tatum, and Buddy Rich, and you’re telling me it’s not that great of a gig? “Well…” Saint Peter, hesitated, “God’s got this girlfriend who thinks she can sing…”
Thanks Billy, Ya, Bm. It started in Dm but when the vocals came along it needed to go down. Did you play over those diminished chords?? PM me if you want the .mgu file.
LOL...I am not skilled enough to recognize every chord I hear. As far as diminished chords go, they have a pretty recognizable sound. Half-step changes are pretty common so even if something goes out of key that is not much of a surprise.
I think I recognized the Bm chord when I first listened to the song. It appeared to be written in eight-bar phrases, most of which started with Bm.
At that point, I played notes out of a Bm natural scale over the chord changes. It became quickly obvious that the song did not stay in key everywhere. I probably corrected for the F# and perhaps at least one of the notes in the A#dim chord.
Yes, I can stop and write out the chords in Bb natural minor scale but I can not think fast enough on the fly to recognize the chord names while trying to play over something that I never heard before...lol
So a very long-winded answer to your question about " Did you play over those diminished chords??" No, not in the sense of knowing that it was A#dim. Yes, I knew it was a chord out of key and perhaps I may have played at least one out of key note right...lol
I do not have ear training skills that are developed to the point I can easily recognize chord progressions.
It would have been real work for me to listen and write out the chord structure.
Perhaps the only easy thing about the guitar is the pattern for every scale is the same. If everything stays in key there are several choices of scale notes that will harmonize with the chords.
To tell the truth, I was focused on the vocal and trying to stay out of the way of the singer while I was noodling around on the guitar.
I for sure can not sightread for guitar in standard notation but...
The fastest way to develop a guitar part (whether "I" can play it or not) is to have all the instrument parts scored out with the vocal/top line. Otherwise, it is very easy to get things muddied up/cover up the vocal.
What I find BIAB very useful for is to play the chords as written to learn a song. That also makes playing a melody much less work to do.
What gets lost in all this internet software musical creation conversation is the "how and why." How did you start for example? With a drum line? From BIAB? From EZDrummer? Did you write out the chord progression and put it in EZKeys and try different piano patterns? What was the thinking when using Scaler for the chord progression?
Well... enough already...lol
Billy
“Amazing! I’ll be working with Jaco Pastorius, Charlie Parker, Art Tatum, and Buddy Rich, and you’re telling me it’s not that great of a gig? “Well…” Saint Peter, hesitated, “God’s got this girlfriend who thinks she can sing…”
What gets lost in all this internet software musical creation conversation is the "how and why." How did you start for example? With a drum line? From BIAB? From EZDrummer? Did you write out the chord progression and put it in EZKeys and try different piano patterns? What was the thinking when using Scaler for the chord progression?
Well... enough already...lol
Billy
Hello Billy, I am afraid if I attempt to answere these questions it will appear that I know what I am talking about and I don't want to give that false impression. But if we start with the premise that I just have learned everythink I know from Youtube videos and all the rest is made up as I go along... then here are some quick answers.
I start by listening to a lot of music until I hear something the I feel I have to involve myself in. Next I (find, steal or create) the beginnings of the chordal backing. This takes me to Scaler or BIAB. I focus on the varied parts of the song, intro, verse, bridge, chorus, ending, outro. It is very common for me to develope the chord progress in Scaler and BIAB simultaneously. Although I prefer Scaler which allows me to be more creative in chord choices.
I never start with drums. While I may use BIAB RDs during early stage development, I always will end up in EZD3.
Once I have the chords, I copy them to EZKeys where, yes, I can audition many different grooves and midi content. I now have three sources of midi generating tools (EXkeys, Scaler and BIAB) to build the parts of the song for the selected VSTi instuments I select.
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But will they "fit my song"? 
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