PG Music Home Forums General Discussion Songwriting Songwriting suggestions

"...connect more quickly with your audience."
Most of this is about writing for an audience.
"...songs that are charting..."
"Songs only go for three and a half minutes."
They're talking about the middle road, writing as craft, following the "rules" and they reserve expression for the lyric.
They probably write pleasant stuff for pleasant people performed pleasantly.

Ray is being much kinder than any of my thoughts on that video.

Interesting waste of 25 minutes unless the goal is to bore the crap out of audiences at open mics.

Trying to remember how many songs of mine have ever begun with chords or a chord progression. Hmmm... Nope, still none.

Trying to rehab my rep for criticism...but you're accurate. I had to think of ways to damn with faint praise.

"How To Write Songs" is such a bullshit premise to start with. You either can or you can't. Now a good mentor or publisher can help you improve the talent you have, but if the floor of talent isn't sufficient to begin with, learning "craft" will only make you a well-crafted crappy songwriter.

Not trying to inflame the masses, as I know some of you have contrary opinions on this, but that's my professional experience.

"Talent" is what is a bullshit premise. What people call talent is the end result of a long, hard road of work.

You absolutely can learn to write songs. Same way you learn anything else.

Nope.
Believe what you want, I'll go with what I've seen to be true.

And I'll go with what I've done.

And I'll go with my resume' of what I'VE done.

Look, I haven't heard your stuff. You may be a really great writer. Assuming you are, it's because you had the ability to begin with.

You can't teach "anyone" to write songs (good songs being the qualifier) anymore than you can teach "anyone" to throw a 99 mph fastball, or run a 4.4 second 40 yrd dash. Talent is real, it exists. And to excel at certain things, it's a prerequisite.

I have to agree with Mr Dickens.
I've only heard a smidgen of his writing but that is beside the point.
I've had a listen to some of your stuff Mr Brown and couldn't really hear what generated the hubris. Nice enough stuff, but stuff that adheres to a lot of craft, format, genre and other rules - like those suggested in the video. Mind you that's probably more a matter of my taste than a detailed analysis of things I'm disinclined to listen to.
In Australia we discern between the gifted and the talented.
As demonstrated in the video - ANYONE can write a song...take the video, implement it's reccos in BIAB and you're done. Doesn't mean it's decent, good or great but it's a song.
Some folk are gifted and, with a few skills added, do fab musical things with songs while others learn through graft & craft, develop skills, taste & to and do great things.
There's usually an audience of at least one for each song written...I know and I'm that one for me.

Pure bovine excrement.

Not only are you trying to move the goal posts here, comparing a basic level of intellectual achievement with the highest level feats of athletic prowess is a false analogy.

The subject of the video -and by extension this discussion - is how to write "a song," For Beginners. Not how to write a masterpiece.

Everyone's got to start somewhere. Not even the towering Johann Sebastian Bach wrote the St. Matthew's Passion his first time out.

Songwriting Suggestions is quite a subjective term. I enjoyed much of the material I listened to on this web site. I think that proves that a more objective and quality delivery is also possible. However, not everyone will achieve the same level. Not everyone will be a Bacharach or a McCartney or an Elton, nor is there room for that also

The recurring nature vs nurture arguments always remind me of hours of psychology grad school debates. Enough so to keep me on the sidelines.

Bud

I usually stay far far away from any and all instructional videos of this ilk, including people who make money telling people after the fact that Stairway to Heaven is a great song.

Really?

Wow!!!! I never knew that.

Jimmy is playing an A minor Pentatonic??? For real??

Holy Cow.

I have a favorite artist and she is from San Francisco (and a genius) and one time I told her I had shown some songs to a certain group for some feedback.

She said:

"How in the world could any real artist with one iota of dignity and self respect lay their pearls at the feet of THOSE PEOPLE??"



It was pretty funny. She was horrified.


Most real artists I know are like that and they don't listen to YouTube videos on how to write a song.

I've thought that a time or two myself

Of course, you're both wrong

If you have a halfway decent IQ, you can learn anything.
But, and this is the important thing, how fast you learn and how far up the ladder you can climb is talent.

You can make up for a lack of talent with work, and vice versa. But only up to a certain point.

Anyway, I agree that it's a waste of time watching the video.

Hmmm … as a psychologist that certainly garnered my attention! I have to ask what you consider a “halfway decent” IQ? I’m certainly bereft of that level.

Bud

They 'guarantee' ....

Some people have a knack, call it a talent, for whatever, which they can develop and hone and improve. Others do not.

Is it possible that everyone has the same talents but in some they are simply hidden or latent? That's sort of my default assumption, but experiences have shown me that's just not the case.

I think it's a natural talent... or the inborn love for doing something that drives each of us to do what we love to do, as well as taking the time to develop that natural ability. I love music and writing songs and have worked on that to develop it beyond the basic levels of the average musician. By the same token I don't like doing some other things but can do them to a respectable level of competency...such as welding, but I don't have the desire to work or study the art of welding to get to the level that I see others capable of.


If you listen to what accomplished songwriters say, this seems to be the case with many of them. They love the art of writing but have gotten better by working at it, studying it, and writing with others who are better or at least at the same level of writing as they are.

I don't think it's a cut and dry, one side or the other proposition. Many factors contribute to how well you do anything, even the things that seem to come naturally for some while not so much for others, take time and effort to refine.

Below average is sufficient.
Retarded usually is not.

The higher the IQ, the more complex the level of abstraction of your explanation can be and vice versa.
But a good teacher will be able to adapt and convey the essentials.

A couple of years ago I was at an educational event with students providing the entertainment. One band was made up of students from a School For Specific Purposes. Each member of the band had, as was required by the enrolment system, multiple areas of developmental & physical complications.
The band was great fun and the repertoire was mainly covers but they acquitted themselves well.

I made it a standard right of passage for the class leaving primary/elementary school to do a musical performance at their grad assembly. Usually I had them write a piece for that performance. One year was rap, another metal whilst the last one was a rock song. They created the melody, I found the chords, we workshopped the lyrics. They recorded a backing to play along to, (there's always someone who doesn't turn up on the day despite being crucial to the piece), and it was fab. Reading ages for that bunch of 12 years olds ranged from four years to 18. They all participated, created and performed. My fave performance from the rap year was from one little fellow who's impassioned stanza was "I'm Jack, yeah Jack. I'm leaving this place and I ain't coming back". He was a hoot - taught him for two years. He did come back to visit me and his learning aid & I ran into him at a gig by a local yet internationally well regarded band when he was old enough to go to pub gigs.

Tuned percussion & pentatonic C is the gate way to writing songs for kids.

Well I have a psych degree too, and did me some fancy peer reviewed research so I know the answer.

To post a typical reply on the forum takes an IQ of 40, to post a reply that makes at least some sense in a general but lopsided way takes an IQ of 115, and to keep your mouth shut and avoid the bait takes a genius level.

To use the word "retarded" in the year 2023 means your IQ is zero.

That's all I have.

Carry on.

David,
I was the director of a large developmental disabilities residential facility in the 70’s during which time we dropped that terminology as did hundreds of other programs across the nation. We had a wonderful music therapy department that brought joy and learning of new skills to our clients. I can hardly imagine what an asset BiaB would’ve been to that program.

Bud

Yep, yep & yeppp.
That's the GREAT subtext of BIAB & PGMusic: ENABLING - providing different tools that enable all levels of interest, ability, physicality, different sensory focused and differently able.

Couple of days ago a relative (teacher) hosted a virtual musical recital for piano students. While some kids performed very advanced stuff, one girl with autism gave a super performance. Very different and unique. That was a display of talent or a gift if you prefer.

IQ.. judging by my tunes, I am a neandertal. Doesn't stop me

I've had a psych evaluation. But it's been a while. Does that count?

Yes.

But trust me, Herb

You don't want to know the results.

P.S.

Stuart Smalley wants you to remember that you're not a licensed therapist but you are an active member of several twelve step programs.

Well that's interesting: two participants in this thread haven't posted in almost a week.

I can see that keeping one's head down after a misstep is sensible though an acknowledgement of the miss would probably be even more useful.
One took the opportunity to respond directly to me via message which is handy though it was, as seems a trend of late, to lay out a C.V. as proof of opinion as well as to give notice that they would be roll up their swag and move on.

I offer opinions.
I sometimes challenge opinions.
I should be prepared for my opinions to be challenged.
I should be open to having my opinion changed.

That passive-aggressive schtick gets old fast, ray.

Sometimes people don't continue posting because they don't see the point - they recognize that it's simply a matter of "agree to disagree" and move on.

But by all means, please carry on with your virtue signaling.

Hey Roger,

I think I know what everyone is saying in common and I'm going to take a stab at this, because it seems to me that beneath the surface people are actually agreeing on certain things unless I missed something.

In order not to inflame tensions I will not speak about the music world but speak about the book publishing world in which I have a lot of knowledge. But I think there is some crossover.

Back in the good old days, if you wanted to have a book published it actually had to be good, you needed to know how to write, you had to find an agent and then the agent had to sell your book to a publisher. I am among those who jumped through all of those hoops and had some success in that area.

Today no matter where I look either in the work of world of traditional publishers or on Amazon where tens of thousands of books are being dropped every day I can't find anything or hardly anything that shows the slightest resemblance to what I would call good writing. It's absolutely horrendous.

Because of Kindle samples you can read the first three chapters of anything that's being published and I can tell you that when I take a peek at things, 99.99% of what I look at is just purely unreadable.

But even the big major publishers are no longer considering the quality and content. It's all about social issues and political correctness and certain types of identities and so on and so forth and it has absolutely nothing to do with the quality of writing. There's some vague idea of what being trendy means and what "appropriate" is but the writing that's attached to all of these trendy books is for the most part just atrocious.

I think there are some parallels to the music industry but I won't get into that.

However, in the world of writing books, I can say beyond a shadow of a doubt that talent is only 1% of the process, and that the grueling work of writing and rewriting and then rewriting again and then rewriting on top of that and mastering hundreds of technical skills that have to be learned is 99% of it and most people are too lazy or unwilling to learn those skills.

It's not fun.

When people ask me how it is to write a book I say I would rather drive a screwdriver through my head.

I like seeing something end up on a bookshelf but really I would rather poke myself in the eye with a needle than go through the process but it's just something that you have to do.

I do think that there is some resemblance of this phenomenon in the world of writing songs where it does take some talent yes, but without an incredible amount of dedication and work and application of process I don't think people actually write great songs.

Anyone can write a piece of crap that will get on the radio for reasons that have nothing to do with quality, but that is not the same thing as writing a great song, I don't think.

I think that ties into some things that people were saying and I believe there is overlap in that area with what everyone was saying.

Now a few observations on forum decorum.

**

It is true that sometimes people come on the forum and they don't feel like coming back. I myself have blocked certain characters because it's just sickening to read their responses.

For the most part, these types of forum discussions are not truly collegiate and they should be. But they are usually childish, and it would be too much to say that they sound like Middle School conversations because they sound more like Elementary School fights.

In a collegiate conversation, professionals listen to the opinions of others and usually find something to encourage while politely offering a different perspective from their point of view.

But not here.

As I read these forums I see that much of the time the person speaking is the world's foremost and only subject matter expert on the issue at hand and everyone else is an idiot.

Everyone is trying so hard to prove that they're right and everyone else is wrong that the conversation completely unravels at the seams and it leaves you with sort of a pit in your stomach.

I think that if people only listened to some of the nuggets of wisdom that come from virtually everyone and politely added in different perspectives, and ceased to use the expression "you're wrong", then people would like to spend more time here.

But the tone and the level of conversation that I see here a lot of the time makes me feel like I've walked into a toxic waste dump.

I shut it down immediately and go back to my music workstation where you will in fact usually find me trying to advance my level at some new skill, or attempting to upgrade an old skill.

Thank you for your feedback and let's continue the dialogue everyone if we can.

The YouTube video, uploaded two weeks ago, generated 12K views from 38K subscribers of the channel.

What a loser.

I didn't know this was even possible here. How do I do this?

For me, you have to hack in and insert this line of code:

^^^^^666666666666666^^^^^^^^^^^¥¥¥¥¥666666666666πππ}{=π√666yyl}

For whatever reason, we all must like this forum because we are all often here.

David Snyder occasionally posts some gibberish nonsense, but I believe he is correct about things becoming continuous and uncomfortable at times.

I guess we are all guilty of occasionally making comments that can be construed as unfriendly.

We come from different backgrounds, different countries, different cultures, different educational levels, and, yes, different IQ levels. What a desperately mundane world it would be if we were all the same.

I believe this is a valuable forum that, hopefully, we can endeavor to keep civil.

I personally think it is better to be inclusive than exclusive.

This is a big house, and all should be welcome here. It is "our" house. No need to take off your shoes, but we would appreciate it if you wipe your feet before you come in the door.

Billy

Thanks Rog but I'm not a wearer of schtick stick.

There's really nothing "passive aggressive" in my post. I was explaining that you'd informed me you'd be "disengaging"/ leaving. I wanted other participants to know you'd removed yourself in case they pondered at you not having followed up.
The fact that you communicated via private message, that you started out suggesting it was a discussion but turned it into written sophistry was stated and that you didn't want to exchange views was offered as it was, in my mind, in line with the vibe of your posted opinion.
I don't care enough about your comment to adopt a passive aggressive approach.
Perhaps "passive aggression" is your assumption of any person who challenges your opinion. I don't know - that's just a guess not an assumption.
Personally I disagreed with your opinion, & you with mine.
I can take that sort of knock.
It doesn't wound me enough to disengage to the level you suggested you would.

Virtue signalling...isn't that the pejorative replaced by woke in the post Trump era?
It had a lot of currency but lacked veracity.

Aye.

and different styles of humour. Irony in particular can look aggressive.
Almost anything written in a post rather than spoken face-to-face can be misinterpreted ... it's easy to underestimate how much influence body language has on our understanding of what's said.

Absolutely. Particularly since irony is a fast fading mode. Well, not so much irony fading but the true understanding of what it is, how it's used and what it communicates.
Emojis are a ham fisted attempt at filling in for the missing expression, body language and interpretive skills as well as compensating for the words left out in the post twitter world of brevity.
I find that accusations of "passive aggressive" behaviour often come from those more inclined toward emphatic speech and homilies.
It is a charge frequently laid upon responses that are calm and reasoned.

Billy,

Let us get one thing straight.

Your best lyrics come from my nonsensical gibberish and you have admitted to stealing my gibberish.

You owe me an apology right now.

And you should get down on your hands and knees and thank the Lord Jesus for my gibberish every night. My gibberish is country gold and you know it.

Finally, on the last blues song you did, you stole my chords and you stole my opening riff.

That is mine.

I wrote that.

... and the meaning/interpretation of emojis changes with the wind; Or maybe tide.
Even a plain old smiley can now be seen as passive-aggressive. What hope has anyone? (emoji omitted for sanity).

There is a long tradition of stealing blues licks and lyrics amount us real blues players!

You, Mr. Snyder, are the one that should thank your lucky stars that I hold you in high enough regard to be stealing stuff from you! You should be thankful that I actually like gibberish and am somewhat enamored of your particular style of gibberish.

Now, after all that, if you still feel abused and downhearted and have the blues over the theft of your so-called possessions. I say "so-called" because you being a blues guy; I know you stole them from one of our mutual acquaintances.

Even so, I will say down on bended knees I am very sorry for my sins and hope you will forgive me. To try to ease the pain, I will give you a # 10 Blackdimond string for the guitar you have missing the E string, and a bottle of hair grease next time I see you.

Also, I am aware that right behind your house on Billy Goat Hill, them laws took the girl and the whiskey still. I bribed the cops to sell me the still so I will have it back in operation in time for your next house rent party.

Best regards,

Billy B, The Blues Boy From Bar'B'Que Texas.

Ha ha ha ha!

Ok, I should have known better.

You are crazier than I am, man, and that's saying something!!!

Acronyms are even worse than emojis!

For instance "your cat had died? LOL" Is that laugh out loud, lots of love, or any of the many other LOL definitions?

Everytime someone puts an LOL after their own joke I throw up and it burns my throat, so I try and keep my eyes closed most of the time when I am on the Internet.

Occasionally? Occasionally?

And lo I saw a high mountain in the desert named Mount Sinai, and a cloud covered the mountain like a fog and the people stood at the base of the mountain not knowing what to do or how to mix a song or how to write or how to do anything because they were hopeless and lost like sheep without a hope or chance or even a goat skin of water to keep them alive, wondering how they could possibly survive one more day on the earth and know how to do anything or how to play a G chord or who was going to save them.

And lo at this moment a figure descended out of the cloud walking towards them with two tablets in his hands, the messenger who would save everyone and tell everyone how to do what they needed to do, the man who knew it all, the world's first human being who truly knew it all, who gave the expression know it all to the rest of the world, so that they could truly be saved and know the difference between this and that.

And once the smoke cleared the people fell in amazement when they saw and knew that the man that they had been looking for had arrived.

And truly truly I say unto you that the man's name was Herb.

Book of David
Chapter 1

Yes & yep.
I, similarly, retch when I read "...see what I did there?" or "I see what you did there." If the humour/pun/pathos/irony/parody/reference/"incrowd" jargon wasn't/isn't recognized then the humour/pun/pathos/irony/parody/reference/"incrowd" jargon wasn't/isn't/ good or was aimed at the wrong audience. Explanation has it's place as a teaching/learning tool but amongst adults, if it didn't/doesn't/shall not work then it didn't/doesn't/shall not work.
I/he who has nothing/embodiment of the Id/me rest/retire/repose/recline/"recumb" my case/valise/port/instance/receptacle.

That highlights just how tricky things have become.

I refer you to my previous comment that even a simple smiley is now often seen as passive-aggresive. I usually put a laughing smiley by jokes, just to assure that they were intended as a joke, not because I'm laughing at my own joke. Or am I laughing at the reader.

It's gradually becoming impossible indicate that humour was the intent. That's very sad.

I'm not sure if this triggers my microaggressions or if it's the first truth I've seen on the internet in a very long time.

You will be OK, Herb. Just 13 more treatments and a few gummy bears.

Billy

You will be OK, Herb. Just 13 more treatments and a few gummy bears.

Billy