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After reading DC Ron's response to my comment (see here), the question came to mind: Where to put the climax of a song? I usually upload my songs to YouTube, and the statistics show how long listeners actually listen to a song. My last song has by far the worst performance of all my songs, after 1 minute 65% of the listeners are already gone, and it's actually worse because you tough guys mostly listen to the complete drama to comment, which makes the stats look better. And, you might guess, the climax/payoff (as in DC Ron's song) is towards the end (the a capella chorus), so most people miss it. So, if you're still reading at this point  : what is the best place for the best part of your song?
Logically, not at the beginning, because from then on it can only go downhill, and also not (as a dramatic build-up would suggest and where I would like to place it) at the end, because by then most listeners are long gone. Since you guys have much more experience than I do, what are your thoughts and/or experiences? Or do you just not care?
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Brian, IMHO a good song is a good song regardless of where the climax is located. Of course that implies there is a climax and one can define a climax. Are the choruses multiple climaxes? Or maybe the bridge?
Maybe people who stop listening are not a fan of that genre. I know that I stop listening to many songs on Youtube because I don't care for them, regardless of the genre. A side note I always completely listen to songs regardless of the genre on the showcase forum. I am interested in how others use BiaB and amazed at how good virtually all of the songs are in the showcase.
Actually if you want your songs critically analyzed you must join a group that does that as a business. Of course that means you must pay for that service and that service analyzes songs in your genre. It also means you had better have some thick skin. It also means that you want to make money with your music.
I just record songs I want to record and post them. If someone likes them fine, if not that is OK also.
I have gotten a lot of good advice on the showcase forum and have improved, at least in my mind (YMMV). But I am not trying to make money with them.
Have you ever noticed there are no lines to a bathroom at a water park?
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The question might be less about where to place the climax than how to keep listeners engaged. I attempt to create interest as a song progresses in several ways. Could be new instrumentation, a harmony, a bridge, a pre-chorus, a key change, a BGV, a lyrical twist, etc. It just has to be fun to listen to and serve the song. On the example in the OP, I was saving two cool sounding alternative readings of the title line for the outro. Songs like My Best Friends Girlfriend always keep me until the end because I love the new ways he finds to sing the title line as they wrap it up. I can think of dozens of songs that don't do this that I love just as much though. So it depends.
But I do love it when someone is listening to the final note and says, "That's SO cool..."
DC Ron
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The question might be less about where to place the climax than how to keep listeners engaged. I guess you're right. I remember one famous reviewer telling that he stopped listening to Billie Eilish's "Happier Than Ever" _before_ the interesting (second) part began, because he didn't expect the song to change much. It seems that "expected changes" is something you need to imply.
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Actually if you want your songs critically analyzed you must join a group that does that as a business. Of course that means you must pay for that service and that service analyzes songs in your genre. It also means you had better have some thick skin. It also means that you want to make money with your music. The analysis part has already been covered by you guys in the Showcase forum I think it boils down to what Ron said, which is how to keep the listener engaged long enough to get them to the most important/beautiful/whatever parts without overwhelming them with too much variety.
Last edited by B.D.Thomas; 10/29/23 06:38 AM.
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Actually if you want your songs critically analyzed you must join a group that does that as a business. Of course that means you must pay for that service and that service analyzes songs in your genre. It also means you had better have some thick skin. It also means that you want to make money with your music. The analysis part has already been covered by you guys in the Showcase forum Well, having submitted a few songs to one of the services that analyzes songs as a business, Mario is absolutely correct. For better or worse, the analyses in the Showcase forum are quite a bit friendlier than what you would get from the pros. Which is not a knock on this forum whatsoever. It's just brutal out there. Ha!
Last edited by DC Ron; 10/31/23 08:59 AM.
DC Ron
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I'm giving a behind the screen look at my process. But hey.... We're all friends here.... Well, most of us anyway....so....
I believe you have to grab the listener within the first 15 seconds or you risk losing them. Then if you manage to keep them at this point, you have to deliver the goods before the one minute point. So long intros lose your audience before you ever sing the first word. Then if your chorus is not started by the one minute mark and you decide to go with two verses, you lose more and if the chorus is not the climax of the song.... Well you're in danger of losing the rest.
People don't have long attention spans. Grab them quick and deliver the goods quickly.
Now.... How I listen. And I'll never tell you what I do with any given song unless I really like it and mention specifically that I listened to it all or multiple times.... My normal procedure is I'll give it 10 seconds to 20 seconds. From that I have determined if I want to hear the rest. I'll often listen through the first vocal line to decide either continue to listen or click close on the song. If you haven't started the vocal at 20ish seconds, I'm generally out. I might jump ahead into the middle to see if the vocals have started.
Then..... The only question is should I stay or should I go?
You can find my music at: www.herbhartley.comAdd nothing that adds nothing to the music. You can make excuses or you can make progress but not both. The magic you are looking for is in the work you are avoiding.
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I'm giving a behind the screen look at my process. Herb, I listen about this same. Except I'll listen to an entire forum song even if there's nothing there to grab me. Think a discussions of how musical hooks grab a listener is useful. To your point, it really has to be done early and often. Especially in this age where the listener can click Next and move on so easily...
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[quote=DC Ron
Herb, I listen about this same. Except I'll listen to an entire forum song even if there's nothing there to grab me.
Think a discussions of how musical hooks grab a listener is useful. To your point, it really has to be done early and often. Especially in this age where the listener can click Next and move on so easily... [/quote]
I always listen to an entire song in the showcase forum.
I will add that what you may like or dislike in songs may be determined on your mood. I have listened to songs that I wasn't fond of and listened at a different time and liked it. Maybe that is just me but I thought that I should mention it.
Have you ever noticed there are no lines to a bathroom at a water park?
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[
I always listen to an entire song in the showcase forum.
I will add that what you may like or dislike in songs may be determined on your mood. I have listened to songs that I wasn't fond of and listened at a different time and liked it. Maybe that is just me but I thought that I should mention it. So true, Mario. Another interesting effect is created when the listener identifies with the lyrics in a very personal way. So the songwriter may choose to tell a story that has sufficient ambiguity to allow for interpretation. Y'know, if I'm listening to a song that's about ME, I'm certainly going to hear it through. Heck, I MAY even listen more than once...
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[
I always listen to an entire song in the showcase forum.
I will add that what you may like or dislike in songs may be determined on your mood. I have listened to songs that I wasn't fond of and listened at a different time and liked it. Maybe that is just me but I thought that I should mention it. So true, Mario. Another interesting effect is created when the listener identifies with the lyrics in a very personal way. So the songwriter may choose to tell a story that has sufficient ambiguity to allow for interpretation. Y'know, if I'm listening to a song that's about ME, I'm certainly going to hear it through. Heck, I MAY even listen more than once... Ron, you don't want to hear a song about me!
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Ron, you don't want to hear a song about me! Ha! Too late. I think I already have...
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If any formulaic approach ever worked, then everyone would be writing hits all the time.
It’s an ok questions, I suppose, but there is no answer.
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If any formulaic approach ever worked, then everyone would be writing hits all the time.
It’s an ok questions, I suppose, but there is no answer. I agree with you that there is no one answer, Mike. There are plenty of theories and lots of science about songwriting, but their application doesn't ensure an interesting song, much less a hit. On the other hand, AI will write a hit song soon, if it hasn't already. I'd like to think I won't like it, but I might. Didn't think I'd ever appreciate vocaloids either...
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If any formulaic approach ever worked, then everyone would be writing hits all the time.
It’s an ok questions, I suppose, but there is no answer. My question wasn't about writing a hit song, I just wanted to know what the best approach is for non-hits. When I listen to other people's music, my approach is similar to Herb's, and in fact most of my own songs follow more or less the timings he mentioned. But sometimes my songs want a late climax or a late surprise. But I think with today's attention span, that's no longer possible.
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The answer is to keep the listener engaged. It's like asking where a chorus should be placed. There's the old cliche "Don't bore us, get to the chorus", but one song might need more development before bringing in the chorus, while another song might start with the chorus. Mario mentions "hooks", and it's the same idea - what are you doing in the song to keep them engaged and wanting to continue to listen? A provocative line opening a verse gets a users attention; a developing story keeps their interest; a satisfying chorus brings everything together; development in additional verses gives new meaning to the chorus... I can recognize when it's done right in a song. But it's not so easy to do it myself, though. 
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The answer is to keep the listener engaged. It's like asking where a chorus should be placed. There's the old cliche "Don't bore us, get to the chorus", but one song might need more development before bringing in the chorus, while another song might start with the chorus. Mario mentions "hooks", and it's the same idea - what are you doing in the song to keep them engaged and wanting to continue to listen? A provocative line opening a verse gets a users attention; a developing story keeps their interest; a satisfying chorus brings everything together; development in additional verses gives new meaning to the chorus... I can recognize when it's done right in a song. But it's not so easy to do it myself, though. David, that's a very nice summation of everything I should have said. Ha!
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I can't think of a worse way to write songs than to tweak them to maximize youtube view stats.
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I can't think of a worse way to write songs than to tweak them to maximize youtube view stats. Not disagreeing with that.
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Y'know I agree in principle for myself.
But...I grew up with AM radio. Back then, acts like the Beatles purposefully wrote songs that would make girls scream and buy their 45s. But while they were at it they invented a whole new type of music that went way beyond the early rock and roll, soul, skiffle and show tunes that influenced them. I have several music influencers on my YouTube feed and they are inventive and fun. And sure, they are probably writing songs for my demographic. But...I think I'm glad they do. So I cut this new generation a little slack. This is all they know.
That being said I don't write songs around YouTube viewing stats and doubt I'll ever care to.
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I can't think of a worse way to write songs than to tweak them to maximize youtube view stats. It may be that more experienced or professional musicians like you who have released dozens of albums don't have to worry about this, but when it comes to songwriting, I'm a complete noob who barely knows what he's doing, so ANY feedback is useful information that can help me improve. I'm here to learn! You can love YouTube or hate it, but the information about how long a user listens to a song is useful information that you can't get anywhere else. It's like at a gig where you see the room emptying during a particular song and you have to think about whether or not the song works live, or how to make it work better. If I wanted to get maximum clicks, I would do rap, or covers, or rap covers.
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My church online viewers gets to the sermon then people bail out. It is the nature of YouTube.
...Deb
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I think my viewpoint is going to be a little bit different than what other people have shared.
I honestly don't give a flying flip about analyzing any aspect of what I do musically and making any plans about it whatsoever; as a matter of fact, I'm vehemently opposed to it.
I will put the climax in the the first five seconds if I feel like it. Or not. Who cares.
The world that we are currently living in is a spiritual and cultural garbage dump, a festering stinking landfill.
I don't watch or read the news and I couldn't care less whether Spotify and every celebrity in the world blows up and lands on the moon in a crater.
Music is the best place where I can go to just be myself and do whatever I feel like. I go there to experience the freedom and joy of hearing whatever comes out the other end of whatever I'm doing.
So I just do whatever I feel like and if anyone likes it that's cool and if they don't like it, again I really couldn't give a flying flip.
The way things are looking we've got another five years left before the entire thing explodes around here unless there's a massive massive change so I'm not wasting any time worrying about whether anyone is listening to my songs on YouTube for 10, 20 or 30 seconds.
I'm just doing what I feel like and I really don't care.
That's my process to songwriting and again I don't care if anyone likes it or not or has a better idea.
So there.
🙂
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Exactly how I feel David!
Have you ever noticed there are no lines to a bathroom at a water park?
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There are people who write for themselves. There are people who write for an audience. Neither is wrong. Either is fine.
I'm more in the "write for themselves" camp than not. That being said, I think my music is mostly listenable. When it's not, I appreciate the feedback I get here. Even when the listener is wrong. Ha! Hubris can be helpful, and maybe essential, for a songwriter.
I think it's fine to ask how to create music that people will want to listen to. It's teachable, and not everyone making music intuitively gets it. And THAT being said, not everyone who KNOWS how to create listeners will be able to. That's just the way it works.
A forum without friction can become a cheerleading squad. While I appreciate the positive energy, and the world could use more of THAT, cheerleading is just not entirely productive to building the songwriting craft...
Trust this is taken with the positivity intended.
ATB, Ron
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Ron,
I'm not sure that I agree with the premise here, or rather it would be more accurate to say that I'm not all that interested in songs that strive to be too craftsman like.
I fully realize that I'm an odd duck when it comes to the whole musical world but I find myself in a severe state of recoil whenever I can tell that someone is trying to write a clever song or please the masses or do anything that one is generally supposed to do. It literally makes me shudder.
I'm only drawn to those songs where I can genuinely tell that the person writing and singing them truly doesn't give a flying flip about what anybody else might think of their song but is writing from a place of complete originality and Independence, even fierce Independence. It is the only attitude that I genuinely respect. Now maybe that artist is only getting two people in the world to listen to their songs but still that is the only kind of songs that I can stomach. If I can tell that someone is striving to be commercial, whatever that means, I just can't listen to it for more than 5 to 10 seconds.
I enjoy listening to most songs on the forum for the most part because I know they're being created by real human beings and there's a chance for me to interact with them and the entire process.
I find it next to impossible to listen to anything commercial on any channel or source because I just don't like it, and I also am not into idolatry. I remember hating American idol the first time I saw it and was sitting there praying that Simon Cowell would burst into flames. Yes I know I'm a weird guy. I admit it.
To me the most important part of a song is something that can't be taught and it has something to do with an outrageous independence of spirit and also a kind of bravery or quirkiness.
I enjoy listening to songs on the forum because it's a quirky place full of quirky people and I admire that.
Again, and I know this probably puts me in a very small group, but the only thing that will usually make me listen to a song until the end is if I detect a sense of outrageous Independence on the part of the artist.
The second I detect commercial I hit the off switch.
But that's just me.
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..........................................................
I enjoy listening to most songs on the forum for the most part because I know they're being created by real human beings and there's a chance for me to interact with them and the entire process. Same here! I find it next to impossible to listen to anything commercial on any channel or source because I just don't like it, Again same here. and I also am not into idolatry. I thought I was your idol  My whole world just blew up in my face! Where is the Death Star when you need it  Yes I know I'm a weird guy. I admit it. That makes two of us! To me the most important part of a song is something that can't be taught and it has something to do with an outrageous independence of spirit and also a kind of bravery or quirkiness. I agree again. You know David agreeing with you so much scares the hell of out me  ...................................
Have you ever noticed there are no lines to a bathroom at a water park?
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I'm not sure that I agree with the premise here, or rather it would be more accurate to say that I'm not all that interested in songs that strive to be too craftsman like. Well, the premise is that people are leaving this particular song because the climax is placed too late. Now, B.D. didn't say which song it was, but let's suppose it was "Not Drinking Neither". Why would people leave instead of listening to the entire song? One reason might be that he posted it on a couple of sites that have SynthV threads. If I remember correctly, he specifically told people they might be interested in listening because of the spoken part, and not because they were particularly interested in hearing the song. So after a minute, they'd heard enough to get an idea what the spoken part was, and they left. That's just a theory though. A music theory. 
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Apologies to David and anyone else I've mischaracterized or offended. The OP referenced a song of mine and where I placed the "climax". We decided (I think) that he really wanted to know how to keep listeners listening to his songs.
Popular music is popular because...people listen to it. I stopped listening to conventional popular music in about 1993 or so. (Which explains my dated sounding songs, but that's another thread) My popular music started with the folk boom of the 60's and took off with the British Invasion. While I gave up on popular music over 30 years ago, my original influencers were keenly focused on how to get played on the radio. And they were quite good at it. So what you hear from my advice is the stuff I've enjoyed listening to. This stuff is now vintage music.
Don't get the wrong idea. I also listen to offbeat stuff like The Shaggs. Brilliant, other-worldly and...there are really no words. (But this is yet ANOTHER thread)
I don't meet David's criteria in that I've written neither the lyrics nor performed the vocals for the songs I post, but I'm always grateful when he takes the time. I'm like the director with a script (the lyrics). I have a vision for how the story can be told, cast the movie, direct the actors and edit the performance. I probably mixed a metaphor or two there. So the storytelling you hear in my songs is mine, but only as an interpreter.
If someone offers advice here, they are likely going to get more than one point of view. I think this post is a great example of that. Thanks to all for the interest and investment of your time here. As I've said before, I always learn a lot...
Last edited by DC Ron; 11/07/23 02:58 PM.
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One reason might be that he posted it on a couple of sites that have SynthV threads. If I remember correctly, he specifically told people they might be interested in listening because of the spoken part, and not because they were particularly interested in hearing the song. So after a minute, they'd heard enough to get an idea what the spoken part was, and they left. That's just a theory though. A music theory. That's actually a pretty good theory. I completely forgot to take these posts into account. I think that solves this particular case. Thanks David ![[Linked Image - Only viewable when logged in]](https://www.pgmusic.com/forums/images/icons/default/thumbs_up.gif) And I like the general approach (keeping the listener's attention, where you place the climax and/or chorus and why) and everything else that's been brought up here in this thread, because everyone is a little different, has different approaches, and I learn something from each of you. So, even if I haven't replied to every single answer, a big thank you to all of you!
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Interesting thread indeed. Song writing is something I very rarely did before joining the forum 12 years ago. My decades of playing in bluegrass bands was almost exclusively covers. BiaB allowed us to explore blues which we loved but had not played much. And after these more recent years of attempting to write I honestly haven’t given much thought to this topic. FWIW I think, to a less mentioned extent, engagement is dependent on the anticipated audience Here at the forum we hear genres we never listen to elsewhere. Perhaps arranging for immediate engagement and moving to a climax is necessary. But away from the forum, for us, we are preaching to the choir. Janice is fortunate to have many songs on some popular Spotify blues rock playlists. Folks coming to those playlists expect, well, blues. They know the genre and have notions of what to expect. There’s no “this isn’t my genre but.” 😀 One might think blues is so formulaic it doesn’t matter. I get that. But we aim for placement on these lists and it seems to work. FWIW After all that babble I do feel that a verbally catchy hook presented early is very effective in engaging us. And for us, fair or not, if we don’t feel the vocal has our notion of soul we don’t stay engaged. Vocally supportive instrumental fills are meaningful to us. And of course lyrics … I will say that mundane lyrics sung by a great vocals will engage us.
Bud
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I always thought the “climax” was the end of something and everything else was a build up to it. The adventure begins by an interesting verse that captures the imagination and builds by adding little hooks that lead to a chorus that drives home the message. Whether the message is relevant to the listener is another story though.
(I can’t write for teenagers now because I don’t understand their motivation.)
🤔
So, to sum up, I think the climax belongs at the end of the journey or just before the end.
Vic
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After 50–60 years of performing, I believe that I've gotten a feel for what works or doesn't in a song. The idea of writing to a climax doesn't work for me. Good songs grab the audience, sustain attention through the middle and have a satisfactory end. This is true whether I am performing my own material or deciding if I should cut a verse or few from a hymn during a church service. The answer, as always, is, It depends.
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…….. and another thing:
It’s like any creative process. A good painting has a focal point that draws the viewer.
It could be the look in the models eye or the “enigmatic smile” or the red splodge of colour in a field of green. The rest is the dressing that allows that “climax”.
The artist is conveying a message. I can’t believe they don’t care if anyone gets it or not.
Vic
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I always thought the “climax” was the end of something and everything else was a build up to it. The adventure begins by an interesting verse that captures the imagination and builds by adding little hooks that lead to a chorus that drives home the message. Whether the message is relevant to the listener is another story though.
(I can’t write for teenagers now because I don’t understand their motivation.)
🤔
So, to sum up, I think the climax belongs at the end of the journey or just before the end.
Vic After 50–60 years of performing, I believe that I've gotten a feel for what works or doesn't in a song. The idea of writing to a climax doesn't work for me. Good songs grab the audience, sustain attention through the middle and have a satisfactory end. This is true whether I am performing my own material or deciding if I should cut a verse or few from a hymn during a church service. The answer, as always, is, It depends. I agree with both of you, and that's the interesting point of my question: - a song should build towards a climax, ideally (but not necessarily) towards the end of the song.
- the attention span of the average listener has been decreasing for quite some time, so more and more don't make it to the end and thus miss the best part.
Like Mike, I usually remove a verse (e.g. the second one if it's AABA) to have the first little reward (chorus) a little earlier and keep the listener engaged.
Of course if I start a song with a chorus, that's a completely different can of worms.
The age of the listener is important, if you're not a teenager you can't write for a teenager, unless your name is Max Martin and your favorite key is G major. Anyway... I can see it in my generation already that most people will skip the song if there's no early reward. Listening to a complete album from start to finish is a relic from the past (which may have something to do with the fact that there aren't many artists anymore who can pull of an album like this. And because the remote control was invented). Times are changing...
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…….. and another thing:
It’s like any creative process. A good painting has a focal point that draws the viewer.
It could be the look in the models eye or the “enigmatic smile” or the red splodge of colour in a field of green. The rest is the dressing that allows that “climax”.
The artist is conveying a message. I can’t believe they don’t care if anyone gets it or not.
Vic I understand what you're getting at, but I don't think you can compare a painting to a song, because a song is sequential in time, whereas with a painting you can jump to any part that catches your attention at any time. It would be an interesting art installation if a painting was linked to a song, with an eye-tracker "moving" the song musically to the part of the painting you are looking at.
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I agree.
When I say "the end", I don't mean the end of the song but the end of that part of the song.
Multi climaxes.
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Hmmmmmmmm.
Is it possible to have a multi climax in any other art form that is not a painting or a song?
And if so, where might I find it?
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True, it’s a shorter time span but it’s still “time”.
I do paint, so that’s why I make the comparison.
I was mainly making the point though, that a climax is important in a song.
Vic
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Hi David.
Watch a good movie or listen to a good storyteller.
Watch a ballet.
Vic
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