Yes the original was just about the chart. Mike posted the #1 chord for C7 is F and unfortunately I tried to explain this and drove the topic in a different direction. I apologized for that.
I think this thread shows the danger of asking for theory advice from users when the OP has very little theory background. All we as users can do is guess how much the OP knows about theory. Learning is much better when one learns from a book or video and not piece meal from users IMHO. Asking questions about what they are already learning in one thing but trying to learn theory via users is another.
I would much prefer keys in Ab over G# or Bb over A#.
I think I would have a problem with a no key signature song when F, C, G, and D are always sharped. Lots of wasted ink when all one has to do is to make the key signature E. That must be a nightmare when transposing for other than C instruments.
Unclear if the pianist is a total beginner or a professional jazz player?
64 bit Win 10 Pro, the latest BiaB/RB, Roland Octa-Capture audio interface, a ton of software/hardware
... Lots of wasted ink when all one has to do is to make the key signature E. That must be a nightmare when transposing for other than C instruments.
Wasted ink, yes. Confusing to the eye, yes. Nightmare transposing, actually no, because depending on the pitch of the transposed instrument, you win some and you lose some. If the original key is Bb and you print a part for me to play on trumpet, my part is in C.
BIAB 2025 Win Audiophile. Software: Studio One 7 Pro, Swam horns, Acoustica-7, Notion 6, Song Master Pro, Win 11 Home. Hardware: Intel i9, 32 Gb; Roland Integra-7, Presonus 192 & Faderport 8, Royer 121, Adam Sub8 & Neumann 120 monitors.
FWIW, I go with keeping the note letter the same, whatever that requires us to do with the accidental symbols (flat, sharp or natural) to achieve that. This conflicts a bit with Mario's system, but I'm not sure that holds firm with, for example, the outliers below. Of course in C, the key signature has no flats or sharps, so maybe we're off the hook in that case. The rule I was given was "you must not have two notes with the same letter within a chord". That would allow A instead of Bbb, but to me that feels wrong. Others may feel differently. I'm open to persuasion.
CMaj - C, E, G CMaj7 - C, E, G, B C7 - C, E, G, Bb Cm7 - C, Eb, G, Bb CmMaj7 - C, Eb, G, B Cdim - C, Eb, Gb Cm7b5 - C, Eb, Gb, Bb and outliers Cdim7 - C, Eb, Gb, Bbb C+ - C, E, G# C7#5 - C, E, G#, Bb CMaj7#5 - C, E, G#, B
Last edited by Gordon Scott; 11/07/2301:45 PM. Reason: yep ... typo
Jazz relative beginner, starting at a much older age than was helpful. AVL:MXE Linux; Windows 11 BIAB2024 Audiophile, a bunch of other software. Kawai MP6, Ui24R, Focusrite Saffire Pro40 and Scarletts .
FWIW this should explain my reasoning and vision for putting together chord spelling tables (and I have more to create).
I built a quick BiaB scratchpad file where the band is vamping on C7 so I can examine musically how this chord is constructed. Inspiration from Eddie allowed me to concieve this idea and limiting the "song" to just one chord prevents other chords (and their transitions) from muddying up the water. My bassline is limited to only the notes that make up the C7 chord and to help those interested to understand what I'm playing (and when) , I played the Bb note more busy than the other notes.
My note progression is: C E G Bb 4x C G E Bb 4x
Of course, there are many other permutations that could be played, this is just a starting point on this particular element of my journey.
Observation #1: If I hadn't investigated the Dom 7 chords and built my table, I would never have been aware of the Bb in this chord. Observation #2: I really like the sound of the Bb in this context, it seems to want to resolve back to the C in a musically satisfying way. Observation #3: In my humble opinion, every music school, music teacher and music student should have BiaB in their toolbox; what a wonderful practice and learning tool.
This is all really good stuff, I'm slowing unpacking and understanding how music works. Thanks to all that have positively contributed to this and other threads here.
https://soundcloud.com/user-646279677 BiaB 2025 Windows For me there’s no better place in the band than to have one leg in the harmony world and the other in the percussive. Thank you Paul Tutmarc and Leo Fender.
I think the comment about the number one chord was thinking that the 1, 3, 5, and 7 above the columns was referring to chords for some reason, rather than scale tones which is what I and most others assumed (correctly) is what it was. The 7 should be b7 as pointed out by at least one post.
My wife asked if I had seen the dog bowl. I told her I didn't even know he could.
I understood that the reference to the number 1 chord was referring to the "first chord displayed in the table, i.e. the chord at the top of the list".
But then how is it F?
I think there was general confusion about what the chart was attempting to show and at least one poster found a way to say it was wrong. That is all.
My wife asked if I had seen the dog bowl. I told her I didn't even know he could.
In the Chart for C7 he lists the 1, 3, 5, b7 notes under those column headings. Halloran assuming 1 meant the 1 chord for which C7 is the Dom 7th I guess? Not sure how or why he went there but he did. No big deal what he stated is true, but has nothing to do with the table presented. As far as sharps and flats, it all depends on the context for C# or Db etc. as for me as a guitar player, doesn't really matter what you call it, I know where it is and how it fits.
My wife asked if I had seen the dog bowl. I told her I didn't even know he could.
Steve if you learn to play the notes to the C7 chord without using open strings you have a pattern that you can use for all other dom7 chords. Just move the pattern up one fret and you have the C#7 covered. Up another fret and there is the D7. etc!
Unclear if the pianist is a total beginner or a professional jazz player?
64 bit Win 10 Pro, the latest BiaB/RB, Roland Octa-Capture audio interface, a ton of software/hardware
Ponder this, as you have described... You are jamming over a C mixolydian appegio in the Key of F. Try adding that F to your jam. It should fit in well and you may appreciate Mikes early comment.
Steve if you learn to play the notes to the C7 chord without using open strings you have a pattern that you can use for all other dom7 chords. Just move the pattern up one fret and you have the C#7 covered. Up another fret and there is the D7. etc!
Yep, I know this. This is one reason that I built my table the way I did . . . everything is incremented by a half-step. And as you point out, the fretboard geometry should similarly increment (minus the open strings as you point out)
https://soundcloud.com/user-646279677 BiaB 2025 Windows For me there’s no better place in the band than to have one leg in the harmony world and the other in the percussive. Thank you Paul Tutmarc and Leo Fender.
Ponder this, as you have described... You are jamming over a C mixolydian appegio in the Key of F. Try adding that F to your jam. It should fit in well and you may appreciate Mikes early comment.
Fun is right. But I'd rather not add in any "extraneous" notes at this time; I need to first solidify the lessons I'm learning first. And then I'll move on to the other chord categories, dim, dim7, aug, etc. and see what golden nuggets await me there. Got to walk before I run
https://soundcloud.com/user-646279677 BiaB 2025 Windows For me there’s no better place in the band than to have one leg in the harmony world and the other in the percussive. Thank you Paul Tutmarc and Leo Fender.
It may be my old eyes, but these 2 seem to have typos...
Oops ... Correcting.
Last edited by Gordon Scott; 11/07/2301:45 PM.
Jazz relative beginner, starting at a much older age than was helpful. AVL:MXE Linux; Windows 11 BIAB2024 Audiophile, a bunch of other software. Kawai MP6, Ui24R, Focusrite Saffire Pro40 and Scarletts .
Yes, I registered that and did a second correction. You don't want to know how many Bb->Eb corrections I did even before the original post. I know where the fingers go ... actually naming the notes appears to be a bigger challenge ... Doh!
Thank Eddie.
Jazz relative beginner, starting at a much older age than was helpful. AVL:MXE Linux; Windows 11 BIAB2024 Audiophile, a bunch of other software. Kawai MP6, Ui24R, Focusrite Saffire Pro40 and Scarletts .
My brain works far faster than my fingers and I do a lot of dyslexic typing. I had even worse eyes before the cataracts were removed. I can't type. At all. I type 25 words and have to correct 8 of them.
Me too. Sadly I'm one of the many older people who are now forbidden grapefruit. I like them and I miss them!
Last edited by Gordon Scott; 11/07/2303:09 PM. Reason: Better grammar.
Jazz relative beginner, starting at a much older age than was helpful. AVL:MXE Linux; Windows 11 BIAB2024 Audiophile, a bunch of other software. Kawai MP6, Ui24R, Focusrite Saffire Pro40 and Scarletts .
It may be my old eyes, but these 2 seem to have typos...
Oops ... Correcting.
This is my understanding of the diminished chord spellings.
https://soundcloud.com/user-646279677 BiaB 2025 Windows For me there’s no better place in the band than to have one leg in the harmony world and the other in the percussive. Thank you Paul Tutmarc and Leo Fender.
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