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I'm interested in Cerio's observation that the quality of the source file makes a difference. Like Gordon, I had not considered this.
Although I have only fed WAV files into Song Master Pro, the source of those WAV files might be from recording something of lesser quality, such as a YouTube video. I assume such a file is already compressed considerably. I plan to run a comparison of the same song recorded from Apple Music (high quality) and YouTube. And maybe a file ripped from a CD.
BIAB 2024 Win Audiophile. Software: Studio One 6.5 Pro, Swam horns, Acoustica-7, Notion 6; Win 11 Home. Hardware: Intel i9, 32 Gb; Roland Integra-7, Presonus Studio 192, Presonus Faderport 8, Royer 121, Adam Sub8 & Neumann 120 monitors
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Although I have only fed WAV files into Song Master Pro, the source of those WAV files might be from recording something of lesser quality, such as a YouTube video. I assume such a file is already compressed considerably. I plan to run a comparison of the same song recorded from Apple Music (high quality) and YouTube. And maybe a file ripped from a CD. Please, share your results when you have them
BIAB 2024, latest build.
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I have a reply from AurallySound who also say panning can be an issue and Take Five is panned strongly: I took a listen and expected it to do considerably better than it did. My guess would be the rather unusual panning of instruments (the center is really open (!)) is quite different from the rock/pop songs used to train the stem separator. Will training does do some dynamic re-panning it doesn't do anything as extreme as pushing the drums so far left--perhaps something to look into. Take Five was recorded in 1959, so could have originally been mono limited stereo. That they expected it to do better is encouraging, though some other tunes I tried were also less than brilliant.
Jazz relative beginner, starting at a much older age than was helpful.
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Purchased today. What a frikin mess trying to transfer the chord chart to anythink which I can use in my DAW!! A huge dissappointment. It looked so promising!!!
Wrong Key or Wrong Chords or Wrong timing. Sent xml to BIAB. That looked good, but there was not a good agreement with the chord names and the midi was using "held" chords across bars instead of replaying the chord. I don't think I have ever seen BIAB do that. When I sent xml to MuseScore, all the right names but the key was wrong. Chart was F (one b), but the chords were F#. Tried text output but that just throws an error.
All I can do is stare at this output and wonder what is going on...
Last edited by DrDan; 04/20/24 11:33 AM.
Final Tour - Not with a Bang but with a wimper!
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is that a long-winded way of telling me let the buyer beware?. Or I should’ve known better.
Final Tour - Not with a Bang but with a wimper!
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Purchased today. What a frikin mess trying to transfer the chord chart to anythink which I can use in my DAW!! A huge dissappointment. It looked so promising!!! What are you trying to import in your Daw exactly? The XML won't include notes nor lyrics, just chords, parts, key and tempo, which is exactly what I expect to import in musescore. As far as I know Reaper or any other DAW won't import that XML, simply because most DAWS are not designed to work with that info. Importing the XML into musescore has worked flawlessly for me (and I've been using SMP a lot during these last months), so I suspect there's something you're not doing correctly. Would you mind to share your project here?
Last edited by Cerio; 04/20/24 01:45 PM.
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The XML won't include notes nor lyrics, just chords, parts, key and tempo, which is exactly what I expect to import in musescore. As far as I know Reaper or any other DAW won't import that XML, simply because most DAWS are not designed to work with that info.
Importing the XML into musescore has worked flawlessly for me (and I've been using SMP a lot during these last months), so I suspect there's something you're not doing correctly. Would you mind to share your project here? XML should handle all the notes, lyrics, key, tempo and notational stuff like crescendos and trills. Should != does 
Jazz relative beginner, starting at a much older age than was helpful.
AVL:MXE Linux; Windows 11
BIAB2024 Audiophile, a bunch of other software.
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My workflow is a tad different. Currently, I want to get the Chord Chart out of SMP and into EZKeys2. EZKeys2 does not input xml. While it can work directly with an audio file, I don't like the chords I am getting from that path.
1) Run SMP on song mp3
2) Opps I see the mp3 is in Key F#, I want it in F. No problem SMP can transpose all the chords. Good
3) Save chord chart as xml. Good
5) Open xml in MuseScore. Good, but wait. The MuseScore chart is in Key of F#. Apparently the key change in SMP did not effect the xml output
6) Change the key in MuseScore to F. Good, but wait while the key change works the chords DO NOT CHANGE. They remain in F#. Bad, must mean the chord names are only "labels"? OK, I will adjust this later in the workflow.
7) Export Song as midi file.
8) Drag and drop midi file into EZKeys2
9 Well now we have a real mess. EZKeys lists the F# chords but can not transscrbe to F!
Here is where I started to spin. Repeated over and over, with slight differences. No Joy. I could not get the proper chords into EZKeys.
Now I could tell a similar tale of woe working with BIAB instead of Musescore in this workflow. But others have already identified issues with importing xml into BIAB.
Thanks for asking.
Dan
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I just made a quick test with one song and it worked fine for me (I have not tried SMP with EZKeys before)
Loaded the song into SMP
Exported MusicXML
Loaded MusicXML into MuseScore4
Exported partiture as midi
Dragged the midi into EZKeys2 chord line (only the chord name line, I didn't drag in the midi line)
It seems to work fine for that single file that I tested. All chords names and extensions loaded into the correct places in the time line the song had parts with several chords in a bar, and chords with various extensions.
I did not change any Keys. The song was in the correct key in SMP and was loaded with the correct key into EZK.
Maybe it works better if leaving the key cange to the last instans ie in EZKeys once the chords are loaded.
I just tested one song and that one worked fine for me.
EDIT:----
I only tested that the chord names were imported correctly (not the chord midi).
I did another test later it also worked fine but here I had misses in two places eg one bar with G-G/D-G/D-G/D was loaded as 4 G/D and similar on one other bar, but in overall the rest was correct and worked well and it was quite a complicated chord structure and chord types.
(I also tried to import the midi file to BIAB but that required a lot of editing, the amount seems to vary depending of the song. To import chords from SMP to BIAB from MusicXML via MuseSCore while waiting for a bug fix see posting above).
(I have reported the problems with loading MusicXML files into BIAB to PGMusic as a bug (assumed bug, BIAB only loading root names but not extensions) They can reproduce the problem and will have the developers look into it. If there are other problems with loading MusicXML into BIAB maybe it would be useful to notify them so they can fix it all in one go.)
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The XML won't include notes nor lyrics, just chords, parts, key and tempo, which is exactly what I expect to import in musescore. As far as I know Reaper or any other DAW won't import that XML, simply because most DAWS are not designed to work with that info.
Importing the XML into musescore has worked flawlessly for me (and I've been using SMP a lot during these last months), so I suspect there's something you're not doing correctly. Would you mind to share your project here? XML should handle all the notes, lyrics, key, tempo and notational stuff like crescendos and trills. Should != does I asked the developer about the ability to export lyrics when exporting musicXML, here's his answer: "The lyrics feature in MusicXml expects for lyrics to be broken down into syllables and each syllable given a time element for when it is sung. I don't have timing data at that granularity so I'm not exporting lyrics. There may be another way to get lyrics that I'm not aware of. I may be able to export a bunch of words at a time (not syllables)--similar to what I do with pdf export." Exporting identified notes is currently supported via a midi file, not via musicxml. Maybe in future versions...
Last edited by Cerio; 04/20/24 05:11 PM.
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I asked the developer about the ability to export lyrics when exporting musicXML, here's his answer:
"The lyrics feature in MusicXml expects for lyrics to be broken down into syllables and each syllable given a time element for when it is sung. I don't have timing data at that granularity so I'm not exporting lyrics. There may be another way to get lyrics that I'm not aware of. I may be able to export a bunch of words at a time (not syllables)--similar to what I do with pdf export."
Exporting identified notes is currently supported via a midi file, not via musicxml. Maybe in future versions... I totally understand, hence my "should != does". I've had so much experience of people short-circuiting specifications because "that part doesn't apply to us" or because they think there's something unnecessary in the specification, or because they don't understand it properly, or because they overlook some part. I'll give an unrelated example that shows the kind of thing I mean. A client complained that a product of ours was consistently "locking up" after about three days, needed a power-cycle to clear it, was rubbish and needed fixing. When we investigated it turned out that their product had no means to receive the "Done" replies from us, so they didn't bother offering us any opportunity to reply. The consequence was that we held on to the replies until we eventually ran out of memory. They agreed to send us the offer to resolve the issue; we also independently implemented an "abandon message" at a high-water mark in case anyone else did similar. That was a very simple protocol. MusicXML is not simple; there are lots of opportunities for mistakes, misunderstandings, "doesn't apply to me" and the like. Even if one uses a sanitised and proven parser, there's no guarantee that the resulting data will be used correctly.
Jazz relative beginner, starting at a much older age than was helpful.
AVL:MXE Linux; Windows 11
BIAB2024 Audiophile, a bunch of other software.
Kawai MP6, Ui24R, Focusrite Saffire Pro40 and Scarletts
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My begining goal is to midi map the chord changes to the beats of a utube song, even if only in quarter note resolution. Fact is, there are several other objectives for this project and I may have moved to fast and jumped into the deep end too soon. So lets try this over again, step by step. I did see how promising SMP can be. It could just be me? Maybe I don't know as much about how all this music stuff works to make it all work? I have an arsenal of tools which I need to figure out how to use properly.
Yesterday, things started well and then just went to hell on me. So I am going to start over today. Delete all the files and folders I had created yesterday and go back to the beginning and try again. Little steps this time. The minute I see something odd I will stop and try to fix it.
Stay tuned.
Final Tour - Not with a Bang but with a wimper!
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I have SMP identifing the Chords then saving them as xml which I opened in MuseScore and then saved as a Midi file which I then opened in EZKeys2. A long way around just doing the entire process in EZKeys. But I wanted the option.
Sorry about yesterday, being so crumpy and all. Things are going much better this morning.
Final Tour - Not with a Bang but with a wimper!
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Mission Accomplished!  I got my chords and they sound fantastic in my EZK2 midi track. The fix for me was just extremely careful observation of the steps as I did them and keeping track of the right files. SMP and MuseScore and EZK2 all settled down and behaved themselves once I showed them who was boss. Now I move on to the next stage. I am mixing in live bass and drums which have played over the original utube video. Unfortunately, neither the video or the bass performance appears to have played to a click. So I am having synch issues with my new Midi EZKeys track. I will have to make some manual adjustments - Either in the midi track or in the Bass Audio track? Any recommendations? Don't say "make a tempo map" in Reaper, cause I have no idea how to do that, dispite my study of the tutorials.
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Dan I will be the bad guy.
If you're trying to line up computer-based (on a grid) tracks with a live performed track you have to use a "tempo map".
The only other option is you can have the live performance aligned to a grid through extensive quantization but then you'll lose the live feel.
There have been advancements in tempo mapping over the last five years.
"Logic" if you're on a Mac can do it automatically.
Melodyne can find a detailed tempo map for you but it's another long process. Free version limited. Paid version detail process but very accurate.
Other DAWs have gotten better at it to cut a twenty-minute process to a five-minute process.
I am not sure of the state of the art in Reaper, but it has gotten easier in the last 10 years.
BIAB, can also find the tempo map with their ACW. Not sure how to get it out of BIAB, maybe a MIDI file with tempo map in it.
Studio One (latest version), Win 11 23H2 , i9 -10940X 3.3 GHz, 32GB Mem, a 4K 40" monitor, PreSonus Studio Live III Console as interface/controller. secondarily test on Reaper, Cakewalk, and S1 on Surface Pro 3 Win 10 (latest versions).
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Dan I will be the bad guy.
If you're trying to line up computer-based (on a grid) tracks with a live performed track you have to use a "tempo map".
The only other option is you can have the live performance aligned to a grid through extensive quantization but then you'll lose the live feel.
There have been advancements in tempo mapping over the last five years.
"Logic" if you're on a Mac can do it automatically.
Melodyne can find a detailed tempo map for you but it's another long process. Free version limited. Paid version detail process but very accurate.
Other DAWs have gotten better at it to cut a twenty-minute process to a five-minute process.
I am not sure of the state of the art in Reaper, but it has gotten easier in the last 10 years.
BIAB, can also find the tempo map with their ACW. Not sure how to get it out of BIAB, maybe a MIDI file with tempo map in it. Hey, I appreciate the voice of experience. That is exactly what I need here. But this is something in the past I have just thrown up my hands and said it I can not do it. Reaper has a tutorial, but it is mind blowing to a newbee. Also it shows only a single track and therefore ignors what I have on the other tracks which do not need tempo adjustments. I have seen BIAB create a tempo map, but the ACW is just such a bear to work with for me! But perhaps there is someone here who can do the heavy lifting in BIAB to create the tempo map for a single track for me. Then I can figure out how to move it to Reaper. Any volenteers who can help out?? Please PM me.
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https://soundcloud.com/user-646279677BiaB 2024 Windows For me there’s no better place in the band than to have one leg in the harmony world and the other in the percussive. Thank you Paul Tutmarc and Leo Fender.
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Excellent, I will give it a try. Thanks
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Dan, it seems there's a misunderstanding regarding Tempo Maps. A tempo map functions as the master timekeeper for a song, similar to the role of a live drummer, and all tracks are required to synchronize with it. MIDI files are designed to work with tempo maps, which guarantees their alignment, eliminating any potential issues. My YouTube channel features comprehensive playlists on this subject. However, as the state of the art has advanced, numerous individuals have contributed improved explanations. https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCRXEM4HzXZAXGQKlR3d3Z4g
Studio One (latest version), Win 11 23H2 , i9 -10940X 3.3 GHz, 32GB Mem, a 4K 40" monitor, PreSonus Studio Live III Console as interface/controller. secondarily test on Reaper, Cakewalk, and S1 on Surface Pro 3 Win 10 (latest versions).
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What!  I have never seen your site. Have you been hiding this? Great info, I will be studing shortly. Thanks.
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