PG Music Home Forums General Discussion Recording, Mixing, Performance and Production Using BIAB in various time signatures 5/4, 12/8, 6/8, 9/8, 11/4 etc.

I don't think I listen when users tell me I'm flogging a dead horse. After all this I think I've had enough as it's doing my head in, I have been at it for too long, I think I will get out of it all while I still have a bit of life left in me.
It's always a fight, that's why it's been stuck is the past for so long, too much resistance to change.
When you give out so much time and energy it eventually depletes you when it goes nowhere...........15 years

I am sorry to hear that. As I said, I thought I was close to getting this to work via the workflow I had described (i.e., moving the chord chart from EZK2 into BIAB and then moving the RTs out of BIAB to Reaper). Your suggestion to input Audio files into BIAB does not work for me. I know that from experience. I hope the OP (Paul) got the answer he was waiting for. The good news is I will be starting to work on the vocals for my 6/8 project in Reaper.

Dan

"A tempo 80 piece in 4/4 will line perfectly with a tempo 80 piece in 12/8 (compound time signature)"

The way I was taught, 4/4 with a tempo shown normally means a quarter note (1/4) equals the tempo (80 BPM).
12/8 implies an eighth note equals 80 BPM.
In that case I don't see the quoted statement as being correct.

It may 'feel' like it, but technically ..
If I play a clip that lasts for (example) 2200 milliseconds, and it feels like two measures
If I divide 2200 milliseconds by 8 (for the two 4/4 measures)
Then take that same slice and divide it by 24 (for the two 12/8 measures) the two results would be very different numbers.

Like I said above, it may feel like it is the same when notated differently, but you're doing different math behind the scenes.
That said trained/experienced musicians do this all the time nowadays.

How would Tchaikovsky have notated it?

I may regret this tread, but...

My experience in Reaper is that changing the time signature "does NOT effect the tempo!" The audio content of a track will sound exactly the same if you change the time signature from 4/4 to 6/8 and play at the exact same tempo.

So I am not saying that Rharv's (and others) math is incorrect. What I am saying is it don't matter.

Why? Because Reaper, like other DAWs, has a fearure for setting the Project Time Base (see pic). So just like using a tempo map, when you have a key signature change it only establishes a "visual grid" which overlays the tracks. If you have the project time base set to "Time", the audio will not change, not stretch and will play exactly the same. This is a very advanced feature and needs the user to read the manual (or find a training video).


Thats my 2cents. Other than that, I really don't understand why we are all having so much difficulty with this usage. But we are!

Correct, it's just a visual aid. (EDIT: I should add it also passes this info to any VSTi you happen to use, i.e. EZDrummer. )


I'm not having any difficulty 'cause I have a workaround that works perfectly

Took me some digging, it's been a while since we did one in 6/8.

This one is from 2019: https://www.reverbnation.com/blueattitudemusic/song/30944965-valentines-way

You can clearly count the beats to see it's in 6/8.

The Rhythm guitar and Bass are from BIAB. BIAB settings are 12/8, 50 BPM.

Everything else is done in Reaper. Reaper settings are 6/8, 75 BPM

BA.

this is fantastic imho...and shows what is wrong with commercial radio these days.

i mean it seriously...this should be all over commercial radio...
and perfect ending....huge kudos and talent displayed.

happiness.

om 🇨🇦 🇬🇧

If you say so, I can only believe you, but it makes my head spin.
It is a nice arrangement. Thanks for sharing.

I don’t claim to understand why it works

Someone told me about this workaround back then when I first ran into this issue, don’t remember who.

I forgot to mention that I used EZDrummer2 to build the drum track, and it was set to follow the host settings (6/8 75 BPM)

The piano track came from my friend Christiane, she uses Cubase, and her settings were 6/8, 75 BPM.

It seems to indicate to me that BIAB is the one that is not handling it correctly.

That is kind of the point of the thread.
Depending on the software, it may not matter & 'just work', depending on what all the software does.
The DAWs that do not need the Tempo change do not 'Generate' tracks, so they can change just the visuals and nobody will notice.

BiaB (and RB) have to retain the ability to Generate, so the math behind the scenes has to account for that (IMHO).
This adds a complexity that, I think, is likely the actual root of this thread.

12/8 is a toughie to handle, since it can be perceived as many different time signatures depending on the feel and when you tap your foot.
12/8, 6/8, 4/4 & 3/4 are all possible .. so a toughie when you need to count on the math to generate a new track ..

Peter's posts imply BiaB does this, but enough users have had to find different settings (like Blue Attitude) that I don't think it does in every situation.

The only time it doesn't matter, as DrDan said, is when you are providing the other instruments yourself, i.e. playing them. Then it's just a number.

As soon as you use another program that is generating an instrument, such as the VSTi's from Toontrack, then it does matter, and the only way to make BIAB generate a track that will work is to use the workaround I described. (Note, I am specifically talking about 6/8 time signature here)

I think my example above proves this to be true. If you listen to the beats in my example and count them as 6/8 you get 75. If you listen and count them as 4/4 you get 50, which is what BIAB needs to be set to to generate a track that will work with a Toontrack VSTi set to 6/8, 75 BPM.

But clearly everyone has moved on from this discussion, so I will too

I am enjoying this.

Dave,

Nice tune and performances.

Regarding the tempo and time signature..

Putting aside DAWS and plugins for a minute, and only thinking musically…. (So we won’t be discussing BiaB, or DAWS or plugins). We are talking about the world of music, as has been established and refined for hundreds of years). And the issue under discussion is what is the tempo of your song, in 6/8 time signature,

1. - The tempo of your song is 50 bpm (not 75) . Tap your foot, and I guarantee you (and every other musician) is tapping it at 50. No one will be tapping at 75 ( because that would be the tempo of two of the triplets, which is 2/3 of a beat and that’s not a beat. )

2. - Like other 6/8 tempos, there are three 8th notes per beat ( not two). This is indicated on a leadsheet by the symbol dotted quarter note = 50. The attached graphic demonstrates this, it is piano man (Billy Joel, 6/8 tempo 58 bpm) and you can see the tempo marking is a DOTTED quarter note, which means THREE 8th notes = 1 beat. Not two. The idea of three 8th notes being one beat has been (and remains) an important concept in music for at least 300 years, and they call it a COMPOUND TIME SIGNATURE. (The compound time signatures are 6/8, 9/8, 12/8).

3. So that means the same idea for your song. Each of those triplets is an 8th note, and 3 of them equals a beat, where you tap your foot. And you will be tapping your foot at 50, which is the correct tempo of your song.

So.. are we in agreement so far? (And remember, we are initially not talking about BiaB or DAWS, just talking musically).

If we agree on these points, I am happy to continue the discussion where I’ll explain what’s going wrong in your DAW to introduce the incorrect idea of a tempo of 75.
‘And a reminder, please view the attached Piano Man graphic, that shows the dotted quarter note = 58 graphic, which means that there are triplets, and three triplets is a beat, and the tempo of piano man is 58 bpm . Understanding this is essential to understandings compound time signatures like 6/8.

Well, with absolute respect, and not to be argumentative, a 5/4 time signature actually means 5 x quarter note beats in each bar. BiaB does not deliver that at all. It delivers alternate bars of 3 x quarter note beats and 2 x quarter note beats over two bars. It would be preferable if the time signatures were presented correctly in accordance with established musical theory and practice.

BIAB supplied songs in 11/8 actually notate in 4/4 and there doesn't seem to be an option to even change the time signature to 11/8



Creating odd time signatures by using multiple bars is an area that ideally needs improvement on. Hope this happens.

Hi Peter, yes, I get that and it makes sense.

If BIAB is correct then Toontrack must be wrong. I don't think it's a DAW issue because AFAIK the DAW doesn't care about time signatures other than for display purposes and for passing the information along to the VSTi. And there are two different DAWs in use, I used Reaper to build the drum track with EZDrummer2, and my friend used Cubase to build the piano track with EZKeys.

This stuff is way above my pay grade, but the bottom line is to make it work I needed to use the workflow that I described, and we have done a few songs using the same process.

I would be happy to grab screenshots showing EZDrummer set to 6/8, 75 BPM and BIAB set to 12/8, 50 BPM if that's useful?

Dave, get that and it makes sense.

Thanks, and I’m glad to hear we are on the same page for that.
Your song has a tempo of 50 - we agree on that.
Note that the tempo of triplet based 12/8, 9/8 and 6/8 time signatures is based on 3 triplets being a beat (which is the natural way you tap it with your foot anyway).

As discussed, this is the musical answer, and if you’re a musician that never uses a DAW, you have no issue, because you will always count the tempo for these time sigs based on the three triplets.

I’ll discuss what to do with a DAW in the next post.
========

Now that we’ve got the musical side sorted, and agree that the tempo of Dave’s song is 50, let’s discuss why entering this into a DAW creates problems. (Simple answer: many DAWS don’t support triplet (“compound) based n/8 time signatures, so they force the triplets into two 8th notes per beat instead of three, which becomes very confusing. The tempo becomes 1.5x faster for example, so that’s 75 instead of 50 bpm. All these problems go away if you use the n/4 time signature equivalent of the n/8 time signature e.g. use 4/4 instead of 12/8).


There are two types of 6/8 (or any n/8 time signature, like 6/8, 7/8 11/8, 12/8)

- “simple” meter, with two 8th notes per beat,
And
- “compound” meter, with three (triplet) feel 8th notes per beat. (Almost all 6/8, 9/8 and 12/8 is triplet feel)

So, if you have a 6/8 compound time signature, and you try to enter into your DAW that only supports “Simple” 6/8, you will immediately encounter problems, as you are “putting a round peg into a square hole”. In this case you are putting a song with three triplets per beat into a DAW that is expecting two 8ths per beat.

Options 1” At this point, if it was me, I would say “OK, my piece requires compound time signature which my DAW doesn’t support. OK, I’ll just enter the n/4 time signature equivalent and forget about calling it 6/8 inside my DAW. Instead I’ll call it 2/4, or better still I group it by two bars and call it 4/4.
So;
- for 12/8, use 4/4
- for 9/8 use 3/4
- 6/8 use 2/4 (I prefer to use 4/4 which means two bars of 6/8 in each bar of 4/4. Either will work)
This solution entirely avoids the problems that you will get by forcing the 6/8 into a daw that doesn’t support it. You keep the tempo at original tempo, the same tempo that you tap your foot at.


Option 2: But if you insist on using simple 6/8 for a compound 6/8 piece, and want to use it in your daw, you need to accept the following:
- tempo in the DAW will be 1.5x the correct tempo.= (This is because 3/2=1.5). So if your song has a tempo of 50, use 50 x 1.5 = 75 as the tempo.
- the metronome will tap at 75 which will be very weird. You may be able to setup a custom metronome to tap a more musical pattern.
- the 8th notes you are going to see in the DAW each represent two triplets of the group of three triplets. If that sounds weird, yes it is weird, and confusing, But you are the one insisting on entering a compound time signature into a DAW that doesn’t support that. As mentioned , I would choose option 1. Otherwise, you will be confused at every stage of the project inside your DAW.

Yes Dr. Gannon we all agree on that.

In all do respect sir I can take any compound time signature, for example lets say 6/8, and mix tracks from Studio One, Cakewalk, EZKeys2, and a drum groove from GrooveMonkee and then will all play well together, assuming of course they are all at the same tempo. BUT the BiaB track at the same tempo and at 6/8 does not match the others, thus making it useless.

This is very important to me as virtually all of my songs start in BiaB and are imported into Studio One and other tracks are added to it.

> BUT the BiaB track at the same tempo and at 6/8 does not match the others, thus making it useless.

Well yes, as I described above, the tempo the DAW is using is wrong for a triplet feel (compound) time signature and is 1.5x too fast,

You need a simple MIDI function that stretches midi, to change the tempo from 50 to 75 (for example), but not change the speed.
Does your DAW have a function like that?
You would need this function if you wanted to mix any n/4 time signature (tempo=50) with your DAW (6/8 simple, set to tempo = 75).

It sounds like the (new) option you’d want added to BiaB is “export the MIDI file stretched to 1.5x tempo , for compatibility with DAWS that don’t support triplet based compound time signatures”. Then a midi file exported from BiaB would be wrong, but wrong in the same way as the daw, and two wrongs would make a right. I’ll look into adding that!

This may be of interest, first shot shows the tempo option in EZDrummer, second shot is the manual taking about the option.