PG Music Home Forums General Discussion Recording, Mixing, Performance and Production Using BIAB in various time signatures 5/4, 12/8, 6/8, 9/8, 11/4 etc.

BiaB can already make music in any time signature, (except the n/8 that are not compund (triplet based) like (1/8, 3/8, 11/8…), or n/16 like 23/16 time sig)

Existing time signatures can include

1/4, 2/4, 3/4, 4/4, 5/4, 6/4, 7/4…. 11/4 etc.
3/8, 6/8, 9/8, 12/8 also supported. (This assumes treated as compound time signatures counted with triplet feel)

The thing that bugs people is that for time signatures higher than 4/4 like 5/4, 7/4 etc. we have a bar of 3/4 + 2/4. So you enter the bar of 7/4 over two bars instead of one. And in the case of 6/8 you enter two bars

On this discussion, people saying that we don’t have 6/8, 9/8, 12/8 time signature support is baffling to me.
For example, for 12/8. You can set the notation time signature to 12/8 and view 12/8 notation. And you can enter 3 chords per beat, which is 12 chords per bar. And more importantly, 100% of the styles, realtracks, realdrums work with these time signatures.

If you’re looking for something like 11/8 or 5/8, you’re correct in that we don’t support those yet.

> Unfortunately, there are not many B & B Styles in 6/8 so they recommend using 4/4 triplet feel. Well... I've tried for 2 days to get a 4/4 triplet feel track to line up with the main beats of a vocal that was recorded in 6/8 at 65BPM. I've checked ChatGPT and been given all these different timings to use but always the 4/4 track plays slower than the original 6/8 in my DAW. I still want to use B & B style so I can add solos etc. but cannot get things to line up. My DAW is Studio One.
Has anyone ever been successful in adding 4/4 tracks to a 6/8 recording? If so, please let me know how to do it.
I have Time Stretch turned off on the tracks in my DAW. I'm recording from B&B at the same bit rate. I'm totally confused.

==== REGARDING 6/8, 9/8, 12/8 in BIAB ===
I’m assuming that your 6/8 time signature is with a triplet feel, meaning 3 eighth notes per beat, and two of those beats make up the bar.

Almost all 6/8, 9/8, 12/8 songs are like that, and they are called compound time signatures.


The common reason that people “run off the rails” and “get all confused” with time signatures like 12/8, is that they mistakenly set their DAW to treating it as two 8th notes per beat, instead of three. That’s a big mistake. The solution is to realize that it is a compound time signature, and set it correctly to three 8th notes per beat.

For example, a 12/8 song with tempo of 60. This means you count and tap your foot at a tempo of 60, and count three triplets for each beat. And there are 4 beats to tsp in the bar. This is exactly the same as 4/4 tempo 60 with a triplet feel.

If the song was instead 9/8 tempo 60, the same reasoning applies and it’s exactly counted and treated like 3/4 with triplet feel
If the song was instead 6/8 tempo 60, the same reasoning applies and it’s exactly counted and treated like 2/4 with triplet feel.

======
REALITY CHECK
If you’re not agreeing with me up to this point, watch a video like this on 6/8, 9/8, and 12/8 (the compound time signatures).

Now: do you agree with me, and this lady in the video that explains 12/8, 9/8 and 6/8. If so, great, we are in the same page.
=======

Here’s how you use that in biab.
For 12/8. Set the notation time signature to 12/8. This is done by pressing the button that says [4/4] on the toolbar for the notation. Then choose any style you want, sewrch for styles with 12/8 in the text, and a triplet feel.
For 9/8, same as above but set notation to 9/8.
For 6/8, same as above but set notation to 6/8. Note that you will be entering two bars of 6/8 in each BiaB bar, and the notation will show you these two bars. (If you insist on seeing one bar represent each bar of 6/8, set the time signature in BiaB to 2/4. I don’t recommend this, since the resultant arrangement will sound worse).

Entering chords. For 12/8 you can enter 12 chords per bar. By default the chords are entered on the first beat of each group, allowing you 4 chords per bar. But if you want to enter three chords you’d enter them with the multi chords dialog which has 12 rows per bar (when set to triplets).

Paul,

You may have made a mistake in the DAW when you set the time signature. This is a common mistake.m
6/8 with triplet feel has three 8th notes per beat. So the DAW (e.g. Reaper) typically gives you two options. To either:

For a triplet feel 6/8 song, in your DAW

(Right!) - set 6/8 as a compound time signature with THREE 8th notes per beat, and you tap your foot every three 8th notes. .
Or
(Wrong!) - set 6/8 as TWO 8th notes per beat and you tap your foot every two 8th notes



Here’s an example of someone who has made a mistake in their DAW
“I have a midi track in my DAW that is in 6/8 time. Tempo is set to quarter note = 80; i.e. dotted quarter note = 53.“

Once that mistake has been made, the user will be very confused about tempos. Because almost all 6/8 are triplet feel, which means the tempo of the song is 53. Yet the user is referring to a tempo of 80, and nothing in the song has a tempo of 80. The user needs to set to 6/8 compound time signature, which means three 8th notes per beat. Most DAWS allow this (like reaper)

Peter you say "...your 6/8 time signature is with a triplet feel, meaning 3 eighth notes per beat, and two of those beats make up the bar."

Yes, I concur. But when I "import from my midi file..." to get my chords into BIAB, I end up with four beats per bar [123, 456, 123, 456].
How do I fix that? I have attached the .sgu via link.

https://drive.google.com/file/d/1cTi5sqPuVlAVw5esn39n8CvJlWKf8to6/view?usp=sharing

Dan

Thanks for the .sgu. Do you have the midi file to upload as well. So I can hear what it’s supposed to sound like.

You bet I do.
https://drive.google.com/file/d/1_Z_aoDU4CdDp13nacyeRlnLKePFY14Qe/view?usp=sharing

If you can help me get these chords into BIAB I will try to follow all other instructions as best I can...

Thanks
Dan

Great. And is the chord progression on the web somewhere? So I can know what the “right answer” should be. If so please point me to the leadsheet.

Thanks I can get you that. I just got on the road but will look into it later in the afternoon. I appreciate your feedback on this.

A good example of the unnecessary confusion over 12/8 time woild be the Song “Blueberry Hill”

Now if i asked you to write out the chords to blueberry hill, I’d expect you would do it in 4/4 time signature and the chords would be in key of C.

Thrill on blueberry hill
4/4 | F | F | C | C |

Easy-peasy

But wait, many people say the song Blueberry Hill is in 12/8, like this leadsheet https://www.sheetmusicdirect.com/en...fPdju4AUL2wOKzmggGn1yWM2EqxoCKYgQAvD_BwE

And so how do enter it now?. The answer is the exact same way, since 4/4 = 12/8. So your chords will look identical, and you just pick any 4/4 song with a triplet feel;

But wait, I’m an avid music reader, and want to see the notation done as 12/8 in BiaB. No problem! Just press the time sig button on the notation toolbar and select 12/8 and you’ll see it notated just like you do on that sheetmusicdirect link I posted above. You don’t have to redo any notation, just select 12/8 or 4/4 as you see fit.

Here’s a nice “proof” that 9/8 is the same as 3/4 time. Look at Bach’s Jesu Joy of man’s desiring.

It’s written out here for lead violin (in 9/8) and trumpet, viola and violin in 3/4. All playing at the same tempo, on the same score. That’s an example of the two time signatures being interchangeable. All that is different is the notation, and BiaB has a button to switch between 9/8 and 3/4 for that purpose.

Same idea makes 12/8 = 4/4
and 6/8 = 2/4
Or better still for BiaB, two bars of 6/8 =4/4

Once you do that, the complicated world of 12/8, 6/8 and 9/8 become your old friends 4/4 and 3/4.

> Thanks I can get you that. I just got on the road but will look into it later in the afternoon. I appreciate your feedback on this.

Great. I expect that much of the confusion results from importing midi files, that may be done various ways. For example if the midi file has it set to two 8th notes per beat, the. 12/8 woild be all screwed up, since there are three eighths notes per beat;

If so, I could add functions to convert the midi data to the correct time base after import.

Here is the chart for the arrangement of the midi file I sent prior.

https://drive.google.com/file/d/1OoVnrrL9nfC_PGQdZQg4lQxrLtH2wgUT/view?usp=sharing

Dan,

Thanks for sending the chart. Yes, the BiaB SGU file (in 4/4) matches the chords in the 6/8 leadsheet that you sent.
As mentioned, 6/8 is 2/4, so two bars of 6/8 match 4/4. Now you will be able to choose any 4/4 style with a triplet feel and this will play well over the song. I don’t see anything wrong.

I feel like I am left hanging here...

You are telling me I make no adjustments to tempo (90 in my DAW and 90 in BIAB). OK that sounds reasonable. And I can use any style which is 4/4 as long as it has a triplet feel? How do I query/search the style library for that criteria? And I set BIAB to 2/4. Is that right?

If i do all that I will be able to generate RTs which I can drag and drop over in Reaper which will sync in time and tempo and groove/feel with my 6/8 song?

OK, it is late at night so I will have to dig into this tomorrow.

Dan

Leave the time sig at 4/4. Each bar will have two bars of your 6/8 song.
To query the library, you can, in the stylepicker

Filter the feel to Swing8
Filter to the tempo you want
Filter to the genre (likely pop)

Then try out styles.
If you want, you can do a text filter of 12/8 or 6/8, that searches the memo, but lots of styles have triplet feels and aren’t described as 12/8 in the memo

I put about an hour plus into this and concluded I can not get it to work for me. That is not saying BIAB will not do its part, I am only saying I can not make it work out for me. I started this 6/8 project specifically to write in 6/8 as a learning exercise. And that objective is being met. What I have concluded so far is that:

1) I understand "most" of what Peter has said about how to count 6/8. And it is clear there is a ready association with 4/4 counted as triplets. I get that...
2) I discovered that designating 6/8 time signature in Reaper or in EZKeys makes absolutely no difference to what you hear, only to how the notation appears. The most immediatly noted difference the number of bars in the song. My demo song in Reaper and EZKeys is 95 bars when set to 6/8 but only 70 bars when set to 4/4. But again, sounds exactly the same.
3) I was able to bring the midi piano track from Reaper into BIAB. However, regardless of time signature, I was not able to duplicate the number of bars. BIAB only shows ~49 bars when 4/4 is specified. This was a serious problem in syncing when I brought any RTs back into Reaper. The track did not line up in time?
4) I do admit, the 90 tempo across Reaper or BIAB seemed to match (I was surprized).

Bottom line for me... I can't do it! Perhaps if I did the entire song from scratch in BIAB I could avoid the problems I had. But that is not my workflow. My chords come from other sources. I wish BIAB would allow cut and paste, cause I believe my problem maybe with the midi input with ACW. We have talked about our wish that BIAB would play better with, as Mario has stated, "the rest of the world". But that is another thread.

> My demo song in Reaper and EZKeys is 95 bars when set to 6/8 but only 70 bars when set to 4/4. But again, sounds exactly the same.

You’re describing a project #2. What happened to project #1, where we left off where you had the chords correctly imported into Biab, and you asked for help on finding a style for it?

Please note that this applies to the .sgu file that you sent to me (for project #1) at https://drive.google.com/file/d/1cTi5sqPuVlAVw5esn39n8CvJlWKf8to6/view?usp=sharing

Did you find a style, and did it sound good in BiaB (as a 4/4 style)?
Here were my suggestions (pasted from my message above)
====

Leave the time sig at 4/4. Each bar will have two bars of your 6/8 song.
To query the library, you can, in the stylepicker

Filter the feel to Swing8
Filter to the tempo you want
Filter to the genre (likely pop)

Then try out styles.
If you want, you can do a text filter of 12/8 or 6/8, that searches the memo, but lots of styles have triplet feels and aren’t described as 12/8 in the memo

====

I wonder if this is the way EZKeys does it?

I mentioned that my songwriting partner often writes in 6/8 and sends me over her piano track, and that for me to create a BIAB track that will match the piano I need to reduce the chord durations by 1/2 and reduce the tempo by 2/3. In the example above 80 *2/3 = 53.333 (which you couldn't do in BIAB actually, because you can't enter fractions, she would need to change the tempo at her end to be 79.5 for me to build a BIAB track at 53)

My point is, if Peter says it's a mistake, does that mean EZKeys is doing it wrong?

I don’t think it’s a mistake in EZKeys.

If your partner has correctly created a 6/8 song at a tempo of 80, you will be tapping your foot at 80 beats per minute. Regardless if the time signature is called 2/4, 4/4, 6/8 or 12/8.

If your partner has selected 6/8 time signature in the DAW, remember there are two variants of 6/8. The usual one has three 8th notes per beat, and the other one has two 8th notes per beat. If your partner has set that up wrong in their DAW, you would see the issue where the DAW thinks it is tempo 80, but the correct tempo if you tap your foot every three triplets is 53.33.

There is only 1 project! The .sgu file from my midi was NOTcorrect. The midi file had 70 bars of 4/4 and only 49 bars of 4/4 in BIAB after import.

Yes I did audition several swing 8 styles. I said they were promising (feasible), but with the missing bars it was near impossible to tell where I would place the RT audio when I dragged to Reaper.

When you say “import”, you’re referring to BiaB interpreting the chords from a MIDI file correct? There weren’t chord symbols in it already somehow.

Hope this clarifies what my project was intended to do and what my findings currently are regarding 6/8.

Yes, that is correct. BIAB is interpreting the chords from the midi. So I don't expect the exact same naming. At this time I don't think there is a problem with the interpretation of the chords.

My problem is the number of Bars. Which I think is due to the fact that BIAB has 12 beats/bar (2x 123,456) while everything else is 6 beats per bar (123,456).

Dan,
Biab is correctly reading and interpreting the .mid file. For example look at the first 4 bars in Biab and can we at least agree that these are correct?
| C | G7sus | C | G7sus |

But then you say “the problem is that (in biab) I only have 49 bars, I should have 70”.

But the chart you sent me (see below) representing the midi file has 93 bars of 6/8 which is 47 bars of 4/4. That matches what BiaB has determined (48 bars+appended ending , likely one extra due to a held note)

Here is the chart. Do you see that there are 93 bars of 6/8, which is 47 bars of 4/4? Not 70? Where are you getting 70 from?

Got ya, yes the issue is becoming clearer. That is exactly the problem!
Here is my Reaper paino Track lined upwith a BIAB RT. How do I fix this!

> 123,456

A tip on counting in the triplet based “compound” time signatures like 6/8, 9/8, 12/8

Don’t count 1-2-3, 4-5-6
For 6/8: count 1-and-a, 2-and-a,
For 9/8: count 1-and-a, 2-and-a, 3-and-a
For 12/8: count 1-and-a, 2-and-a, 3-and-a, 4-and-a

By doing this you are counting where the numbers represent the tempo and is the same as counting in a 2/4, 3/4, or 4/4 meter.

Helpful! Perhaps an FAQ, or a post in Tips & Tricks?

I found this enjoyable and enlightening on this topic.

[img][/img]

Dan, that is exactly how I learned the difference between the time signatures.

PS - I only missed two on the test so I am happy with and 80% rating!

> I found this enjoyable and enlightening on this topic.


There’s an interesting RealTracks tip about the relationship between 3/4 and 12/8 (or 6/8) styles.

If you have a 4/4 style, and you want to add some 12/8 feel RealTracks or RealDrums to it:
You can pick any relatively fast 3/4 (waltz) RT or RD, and set it to triple time. This will then play a bar of the rt waltz for every beat of the 6/8, 9/8 or 12/8 style, and play in sync with the other 4/4 instruments.

‘This is a practical example of using the relationship between 3/4 and 6/8, 9/8 or 12/8 styles.

If you stay in Biab and don't venture out into the real world you should be fine. If you want Biab to gen up tracks to fit with existing DAW time signature tracks, forget it.

A very complex thread. Please allow me to attempt to summarize.

This tread originated over here; https://www.pgmusic.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=809584&page=1

The OP (Paul335smith) originally asked if “Has anyone ever been successful in adding 4/4 tracks to a 6/8 recording? If so, please let me know how to do it.” This question was timely for me since I had just started a project specifically to build a song in 6/8 in Reaper. I initially had no intention to use BIAB since I did not feel this would be successful. But Paul’s question caused me to take a turn in my project to add his “ask” to my “learning objectives”.

Paul has gotten a lot of feedback specific to 6/8 work arounds in BIAB which have been historical here in the forum. So I attempted to do exactly what Paul had asked “Has anyone ever been successful in adding 4/4 tracks to a 6/8 recording? If so, please let me know how to do it.” So far I have not been able to do this (see below).

Folks have indicated tempo changes are needed while others have said they are not! But no one could fully answer his question. Until now!

“If you stay in Biab and don't venture out into the real world you should be fine. If you want Biab to gen up tracks to fit with existing DAW time signature tracks, forget it.” Musocity

This is a concise statement and conclusion to what I felt Paul was asking for and I am trying to do. I felt I got close to showing how this can be done, but I hit a wall. I hope I have been clear in explaining where I am stuck in the process and that Peter is on board and looking into a solution or clarification. So perhaps, the jury is still out for me.

But if Musocity is correct in his conclusion, this is a huge opportunity for PGM to remedy this situation. Bring BIAB out of the box and open it up for integration with other music apps which would allow exactly what Paul was asking for to be doable.

I have been saying that for years!

So if you create up a UserTrack in the real time signature and tempo you need,
import it into Biab and set the master tempo for it so 1 bar of the time signature fits 1 bar of Biab,
this will then generate up in Biab @ the pseudo tempo giving the actual tempo of the DAW with no stretching.
If the UserTrack could have the actual real time signature rather than 3/4 4/4
ThisIsWaltz=False
then Biab could show the actual tempo 12/8 84bpm rather than the pseudo tempo 4/4 56bpm

> Folks have indicated tempo changes are needed while others have said they are not! But no one could fully answer his question. Until now!

No, it is trivial to line up 4/4 and 12/8. Tempo changes are not required.
A tempo 80 piece in 4/4 will line perfectly with a tempo 80 piece in 12/8 (compound time signature)
A song at a tempo of 80 is the same exactly whether it is 4/4 or 12/8.
Bach;s Jesu Joy of man’s desiring is the same tempo in 3/4 of or 9/8. In fact I posted a score of it higher in this thread where both time signatures are used interchangeably.for different voices of the same chart,

The people who say differently haven’t correctly set their DAW to 12/8 (compound time signature), and have mistakenly set it to two 8th notes per beat instead of 3. So they get a wacky tempo for the 12/8 because they aren’t in 12/8 triplet (compound).

Dan. My advice to you, is to render the files to audio, then you can make sure they don’t get messed with when you drag them from program to program. You will find that 32 bars of 4/4 at tempo 60 is a wave file of 128 seconds. And 32 bars of 12/8 at same tempo of 60 is a WAV file of 128 seconds. And then you need to ask yourself if you’re going to be able to line up two WAV files , both of 128 seconds.

> Biab could show the actual tempo 12/8 84bpm rather than the pseudo tempo 4/4 56bpm

Musocity, I invite you to take the tempo/ time sig challenge. https://www.pgmusic.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=810259&#Post810259

> Mario: I have been saying that for years!

I invite you to take the tempo/time sig challenge. Who knows, maybe we will all agree on something.
https://www.pgmusic.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=810259&#Post810259

Might I suggest creating a table of time signature options for each signature supported in you BIAB help file, if not already there.

> Folks have indicated tempo changes are needed while others have said they are not! But no one could fully answer his question. Until now!

Dan,
Indeed, let’s see if tempo changes are required. I invite you to take the tempo/time sig challenge. Who knows, maybe we will all agree on something.
https://www.pgmusic.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=810259&#Post810259

One simple, lovely tune - Blueberry Hill. just measure the tempo.

> Might I suggest creating a table of time signature options for each signature supported in you BIAB help file, if not already there.


Here it is… (we will add this to the documentation)

1/4 = 3/8
2/4 = 6/8
3/4 = 9/8
4/4 = 12/8 (or two bars of 6/8)

I don't think I listen when users tell me I'm flogging a dead horse. After all this I think I've had enough as it's doing my head in, I have been at it for too long, I think I will get out of it all while I still have a bit of life left in me.
It's always a fight, that's why it's been stuck is the past for so long, too much resistance to change.
When you give out so much time and energy it eventually depletes you when it goes nowhere...........15 years

I am sorry to hear that. As I said, I thought I was close to getting this to work via the workflow I had described (i.e., moving the chord chart from EZK2 into BIAB and then moving the RTs out of BIAB to Reaper). Your suggestion to input Audio files into BIAB does not work for me. I know that from experience. I hope the OP (Paul) got the answer he was waiting for. The good news is I will be starting to work on the vocals for my 6/8 project in Reaper.

Dan

"A tempo 80 piece in 4/4 will line perfectly with a tempo 80 piece in 12/8 (compound time signature)"

The way I was taught, 4/4 with a tempo shown normally means a quarter note (1/4) equals the tempo (80 BPM).
12/8 implies an eighth note equals 80 BPM.
In that case I don't see the quoted statement as being correct.

It may 'feel' like it, but technically ..
If I play a clip that lasts for (example) 2200 milliseconds, and it feels like two measures
If I divide 2200 milliseconds by 8 (for the two 4/4 measures)
Then take that same slice and divide it by 24 (for the two 12/8 measures) the two results would be very different numbers.

Like I said above, it may feel like it is the same when notated differently, but you're doing different math behind the scenes.
That said trained/experienced musicians do this all the time nowadays.

How would Tchaikovsky have notated it?

I may regret this tread, but...

My experience in Reaper is that changing the time signature "does NOT effect the tempo!" The audio content of a track will sound exactly the same if you change the time signature from 4/4 to 6/8 and play at the exact same tempo.

So I am not saying that Rharv's (and others) math is incorrect. What I am saying is it don't matter.

Why? Because Reaper, like other DAWs, has a fearure for setting the Project Time Base (see pic). So just like using a tempo map, when you have a key signature change it only establishes a "visual grid" which overlays the tracks. If you have the project time base set to "Time", the audio will not change, not stretch and will play exactly the same. This is a very advanced feature and needs the user to read the manual (or find a training video).


Thats my 2cents. Other than that, I really don't understand why we are all having so much difficulty with this usage. But we are!

Correct, it's just a visual aid. (EDIT: I should add it also passes this info to any VSTi you happen to use, i.e. EZDrummer. )


I'm not having any difficulty 'cause I have a workaround that works perfectly

Took me some digging, it's been a while since we did one in 6/8.

This one is from 2019: https://www.reverbnation.com/blueattitudemusic/song/30944965-valentines-way

You can clearly count the beats to see it's in 6/8.

The Rhythm guitar and Bass are from BIAB. BIAB settings are 12/8, 50 BPM.

Everything else is done in Reaper. Reaper settings are 6/8, 75 BPM

BA.

this is fantastic imho...and shows what is wrong with commercial radio these days.

i mean it seriously...this should be all over commercial radio...
and perfect ending....huge kudos and talent displayed.

happiness.

om 🇨🇦 🇬🇧

If you say so, I can only believe you, but it makes my head spin.
It is a nice arrangement. Thanks for sharing.

I don’t claim to understand why it works

Someone told me about this workaround back then when I first ran into this issue, don’t remember who.

I forgot to mention that I used EZDrummer2 to build the drum track, and it was set to follow the host settings (6/8 75 BPM)

The piano track came from my friend Christiane, she uses Cubase, and her settings were 6/8, 75 BPM.

It seems to indicate to me that BIAB is the one that is not handling it correctly.

That is kind of the point of the thread.
Depending on the software, it may not matter & 'just work', depending on what all the software does.
The DAWs that do not need the Tempo change do not 'Generate' tracks, so they can change just the visuals and nobody will notice.

BiaB (and RB) have to retain the ability to Generate, so the math behind the scenes has to account for that (IMHO).
This adds a complexity that, I think, is likely the actual root of this thread.

12/8 is a toughie to handle, since it can be perceived as many different time signatures depending on the feel and when you tap your foot.
12/8, 6/8, 4/4 & 3/4 are all possible .. so a toughie when you need to count on the math to generate a new track ..

Peter's posts imply BiaB does this, but enough users have had to find different settings (like Blue Attitude) that I don't think it does in every situation.

The only time it doesn't matter, as DrDan said, is when you are providing the other instruments yourself, i.e. playing them. Then it's just a number.

As soon as you use another program that is generating an instrument, such as the VSTi's from Toontrack, then it does matter, and the only way to make BIAB generate a track that will work is to use the workaround I described. (Note, I am specifically talking about 6/8 time signature here)

I think my example above proves this to be true. If you listen to the beats in my example and count them as 6/8 you get 75. If you listen and count them as 4/4 you get 50, which is what BIAB needs to be set to to generate a track that will work with a Toontrack VSTi set to 6/8, 75 BPM.

But clearly everyone has moved on from this discussion, so I will too

I am enjoying this.

Dave,

Nice tune and performances.

Regarding the tempo and time signature..

Putting aside DAWS and plugins for a minute, and only thinking musically…. (So we won’t be discussing BiaB, or DAWS or plugins). We are talking about the world of music, as has been established and refined for hundreds of years). And the issue under discussion is what is the tempo of your song, in 6/8 time signature,

1. - The tempo of your song is 50 bpm (not 75) . Tap your foot, and I guarantee you (and every other musician) is tapping it at 50. No one will be tapping at 75 ( because that would be the tempo of two of the triplets, which is 2/3 of a beat and that’s not a beat. )

2. - Like other 6/8 tempos, there are three 8th notes per beat ( not two). This is indicated on a leadsheet by the symbol dotted quarter note = 50. The attached graphic demonstrates this, it is piano man (Billy Joel, 6/8 tempo 58 bpm) and you can see the tempo marking is a DOTTED quarter note, which means THREE 8th notes = 1 beat. Not two. The idea of three 8th notes being one beat has been (and remains) an important concept in music for at least 300 years, and they call it a COMPOUND TIME SIGNATURE. (The compound time signatures are 6/8, 9/8, 12/8).

3. So that means the same idea for your song. Each of those triplets is an 8th note, and 3 of them equals a beat, where you tap your foot. And you will be tapping your foot at 50, which is the correct tempo of your song.

So.. are we in agreement so far? (And remember, we are initially not talking about BiaB or DAWS, just talking musically).

If we agree on these points, I am happy to continue the discussion where I’ll explain what’s going wrong in your DAW to introduce the incorrect idea of a tempo of 75.
‘And a reminder, please view the attached Piano Man graphic, that shows the dotted quarter note = 58 graphic, which means that there are triplets, and three triplets is a beat, and the tempo of piano man is 58 bpm . Understanding this is essential to understandings compound time signatures like 6/8.

Well, with absolute respect, and not to be argumentative, a 5/4 time signature actually means 5 x quarter note beats in each bar. BiaB does not deliver that at all. It delivers alternate bars of 3 x quarter note beats and 2 x quarter note beats over two bars. It would be preferable if the time signatures were presented correctly in accordance with established musical theory and practice.

BIAB supplied songs in 11/8 actually notate in 4/4 and there doesn't seem to be an option to even change the time signature to 11/8



Creating odd time signatures by using multiple bars is an area that ideally needs improvement on. Hope this happens.

Hi Peter, yes, I get that and it makes sense.

If BIAB is correct then Toontrack must be wrong. I don't think it's a DAW issue because AFAIK the DAW doesn't care about time signatures other than for display purposes and for passing the information along to the VSTi. And there are two different DAWs in use, I used Reaper to build the drum track with EZDrummer2, and my friend used Cubase to build the piano track with EZKeys.

This stuff is way above my pay grade, but the bottom line is to make it work I needed to use the workflow that I described, and we have done a few songs using the same process.

I would be happy to grab screenshots showing EZDrummer set to 6/8, 75 BPM and BIAB set to 12/8, 50 BPM if that's useful?

Dave, get that and it makes sense.

Thanks, and I’m glad to hear we are on the same page for that.
Your song has a tempo of 50 - we agree on that.
Note that the tempo of triplet based 12/8, 9/8 and 6/8 time signatures is based on 3 triplets being a beat (which is the natural way you tap it with your foot anyway).

As discussed, this is the musical answer, and if you’re a musician that never uses a DAW, you have no issue, because you will always count the tempo for these time sigs based on the three triplets.

I’ll discuss what to do with a DAW in the next post.
========

Now that we’ve got the musical side sorted, and agree that the tempo of Dave’s song is 50, let’s discuss why entering this into a DAW creates problems. (Simple answer: many DAWS don’t support triplet (“compound) based n/8 time signatures, so they force the triplets into two 8th notes per beat instead of three, which becomes very confusing. The tempo becomes 1.5x faster for example, so that’s 75 instead of 50 bpm. All these problems go away if you use the n/4 time signature equivalent of the n/8 time signature e.g. use 4/4 instead of 12/8).


There are two types of 6/8 (or any n/8 time signature, like 6/8, 7/8 11/8, 12/8)

- “simple” meter, with two 8th notes per beat,
And
- “compound” meter, with three (triplet) feel 8th notes per beat. (Almost all 6/8, 9/8 and 12/8 is triplet feel)

So, if you have a 6/8 compound time signature, and you try to enter into your DAW that only supports “Simple” 6/8, you will immediately encounter problems, as you are “putting a round peg into a square hole”. In this case you are putting a song with three triplets per beat into a DAW that is expecting two 8ths per beat.

Options 1” At this point, if it was me, I would say “OK, my piece requires compound time signature which my DAW doesn’t support. OK, I’ll just enter the n/4 time signature equivalent and forget about calling it 6/8 inside my DAW. Instead I’ll call it 2/4, or better still I group it by two bars and call it 4/4.
So;
- for 12/8, use 4/4
- for 9/8 use 3/4
- 6/8 use 2/4 (I prefer to use 4/4 which means two bars of 6/8 in each bar of 4/4. Either will work)
This solution entirely avoids the problems that you will get by forcing the 6/8 into a daw that doesn’t support it. You keep the tempo at original tempo, the same tempo that you tap your foot at.


Option 2: But if you insist on using simple 6/8 for a compound 6/8 piece, and want to use it in your daw, you need to accept the following:
- tempo in the DAW will be 1.5x the correct tempo.= (This is because 3/2=1.5). So if your song has a tempo of 50, use 50 x 1.5 = 75 as the tempo.
- the metronome will tap at 75 which will be very weird. You may be able to setup a custom metronome to tap a more musical pattern.
- the 8th notes you are going to see in the DAW each represent two triplets of the group of three triplets. If that sounds weird, yes it is weird, and confusing, But you are the one insisting on entering a compound time signature into a DAW that doesn’t support that. As mentioned , I would choose option 1. Otherwise, you will be confused at every stage of the project inside your DAW.

Yes Dr. Gannon we all agree on that.

In all do respect sir I can take any compound time signature, for example lets say 6/8, and mix tracks from Studio One, Cakewalk, EZKeys2, and a drum groove from GrooveMonkee and then will all play well together, assuming of course they are all at the same tempo. BUT the BiaB track at the same tempo and at 6/8 does not match the others, thus making it useless.

This is very important to me as virtually all of my songs start in BiaB and are imported into Studio One and other tracks are added to it.

> BUT the BiaB track at the same tempo and at 6/8 does not match the others, thus making it useless.

Well yes, as I described above, the tempo the DAW is using is wrong for a triplet feel (compound) time signature and is 1.5x too fast,

You need a simple MIDI function that stretches midi, to change the tempo from 50 to 75 (for example), but not change the speed.
Does your DAW have a function like that?
You would need this function if you wanted to mix any n/4 time signature (tempo=50) with your DAW (6/8 simple, set to tempo = 75).

It sounds like the (new) option you’d want added to BiaB is “export the MIDI file stretched to 1.5x tempo , for compatibility with DAWS that don’t support triplet based compound time signatures”. Then a midi file exported from BiaB would be wrong, but wrong in the same way as the daw, and two wrongs would make a right. I’ll look into adding that!

This may be of interest, first shot shows the tempo option in EZDrummer, second shot is the manual taking about the option.

Thanx you very much for looking into adding that function, I appreciate that.
Is there any way you can get 5/4 and 7/4 to work in a DAW? Those are other time signatures I occasionally use.

I do appreciate all the discussion, however, none of this helps me add my 6/8 EZKeys piano chords to BIAB. The number of BARS in my EZKeys midi file just will not match up in BIAB, regardless of all this information. Of couse, could be a new problem with BIAB or could be operator error. Don't know. But I just wanted you to know.

Mario,
Currently it should export the 5/4 in a MIDI file as a bar of 3/4, then 2/4 and then those repeated.
That should import into an existing DAW project set to 5/4, does it not?

As I mentioned, we are in future planning better 5/4 support, that won’t do it as 3+2, so that would export as 5/4 directly. But in the meantime, I hope that suggestion above works.

> none of this helps me add my 6/8 EZKeys piano chords

You should add your EZkeys chords to your DAW project in 4/4, using the menu options from the screenshots that Dave posted.

Then you’ll never get into the time signature mess of 6/8 in the first place, as you’ll always be in 4/4. The song you sent me was a 4/4 song anyway. Just tap your foot along with it and you’ll see what I mean, Just because someone calls a pattern 6/8 doesn’t mean you need to change the time signature of your DAW to 6/8, especially since your DAW doesn’t support triplet (compound) time signatures, and forces you to change the tempo by a factor of 1.5x

If I was summarizing this in a one-liner it would read…

In your DAW… Forget 12/8 and 6/8… Stay in 4/4 !

If that one-liner isn’t clear, I’ll re-paste what I said above which elaborates the point…

“ many DAWS don’t support triplet (“compound) based n/8 time signatures, so they force the triplets into two 8th notes per beat instead of three, which becomes very confusing. The tempo becomes 1.5x faster for example, so that’s 75 instead of the correct tempo of 50 bpm. All these problems go away if you use the n/4 time signature equivalent of the n/8 time signature e.g. use 4/4 instead of 12/8”

Most DAWs can handle this. What are you using?

Thanx Peter, I appreciate your understanding of my issues.

Studio One Pro and I think it can do that. I'll have to check later.

I apologize if this is a slight diversion from the thrust of this thread.
But Mario, when posting a song in the Showcase with an "odd" time signature (odd for me is anything other than 4/4 or 3/4) would you mind to point out what time sig you used?

This might help mere mortal amatuers like me to grasp this subject

Success, well at least the roadblock has been removed. Setting EZK2 to 4/4 I exported the midi bars to desktop, then I input them in BIAB at 4/4 and this time - the total number of bars matched up. And the 6/8 "sound" is still present.

So all my chords are now in BIAB. Now I immedialty can hear with Tempo set at 90 BPM in both EZK and BIAB, BIAB is going faster... So I change that to 60 BPM (2/3's)and now they play in unison. That is Good News.

But I see a downside. All my visible part markers in EZKeys/DAW no longer line up with the music. Down beat for start of verse is now Bar 8, Beat 3 instead of Bar 11 Beat 1. But I think I can live with that or at least I can now try since I will soon be bringing content over from BIAB.

I will let you know how it goes.

WTF can't be understood, that says it all.
PG is stuck in it's time warp and technology warp.
It was the same deal with users wanting 64bit with PG BUT BUT BUT fighting all the way to hang on to 32bit with J Bridge. Go back and look at the fricken forums with PG fighting this like crazy that we don't need 64bit.
JUST LET GO AND DO THE RIGHT FRICKEN THING.
You waste so much time with this stupid 6 months Win 6 months Mac, total craziness !
How the hell is the Plugin going to match existing DAW recorded sessions ??????
I posted so many posts in the Plugin forum showing time signature issue and how I fitted them with UserTracks, BUT what happens ? all the PG staff that have been brain washed get in on the protectionism, aren't you allowed to think for yourselves ?
It's the most ridiculous thing that I have spent so much time to force PG to do normal things that other developers just do. I have donated so much of my time and life doing this, I must be a right Walley to keep doing it !
In other forums and beta testing they do what is suggested and they is a wonderful flow, the creativity goes somewhere.
You have fricken Reaper now playing the PG compressed formats because they listened to common sense and just implemented things without years and years of resistance fighting.
"THE WRITING IS ON THE FRICKEN WALL, WAKE UP OUT OF THE FRICKEN TIME WARP"

I saw this when I opened youtube, must be a sign how I feel, says it all:

Is that actual writing on that wall ?

Please, let's all be cordial, civil and professional.

Please, let Biab/Plugin be professional.

Just wanted to close this loop.

Today I removed all BIAB tracks from my 6/8 project. It was a very interesting and educational exercise but, got to the point where the music was suffering due to the effort. The song must go on. As I said before, I am not saying that introducing BIAB 4/4 tracks into my 6/8 project in Reaper can't be done, I am only saying that I was not able to do it.

Carry on all.